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Voxxy
07-13-2009, 10:28 AM
I'm new here. A little bit of background. I'm a 34 year old guy and 5'11". I was at 258 on April 21st, and used weight watchers points system (1200 cal/day of whatever) to do a basic diet, and did about an hour cardio per day. No weights.

I got down to 232 in 2 months at 2-3 lbs loss per week and just felt lethargic and bored with the diet. I felt flabby, even thought I was getting "smaller" and really wanted to kick it up a notch and curb some of the lean tissue loss that is bound to happen on a cutting diet like that with no weight training.

So, 3 weeks ago today, I started a weight lifting plan written up by a buddy who is big into it. And I had another friend help me with a diet.

I've stuck with it to the T and eaten 99% clean (1 cheat meal per week where I have like ice cream and don't really count calories, but I don't go crazy either).

Here is my workout plan

PUSH
Bench Press
Incline Bench Press
Military Press
Dips
Squats


PULL
Barbell Rows
Dumbbell Rows
Upright Rows
Chinups
Deadlifts

Day 1 - push/cardio
Day 2 - cardio only
Day 3 - pull/cardio
Day 4 - cardio only
Day 5 - push/cardio

etc, etc

And my diet is this:

6 Meals w/210g Protein, 99g Carb, 39g Fat. 1550 calories.

Meals

Breakfast 35g Protein/33Carbs/Minimal Fat (min= 5 or under)
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Meal one 35g Protein/Veggies/13 Fats (Minimal Carbs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meal two 35g Protein/Veggies/13g Fats (Minimal Carbs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meal Three 35g Protein/Veggies/13g Fats (Minimal Carbs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POST WORKOUT SHAKE 35g Protein/33 Carbs (drink crystal sugars)/Minimal Fat
Within 15 minutes of weight lifting
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
45 Min after shake, have dinner 35g Protein 33g Carbs/ Minimal Fats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, thats basically the plan I'm on right now. I've been sticking to it to the T other than 1 cheat meal per week, and haven't lost an ounce in 3 weeks.

Any thoughts on why this is occuring. I understand I could be gaining lean tissue and losing fat which are cancelling themselves out when it comes to pure scale numbers. Or is there anything blatently wrong with the plan I'm on? I was hoping to lose 1-3 lbs a week (of mostly fat) on this plan.

Any opinions on what I can change, or should I just shut-up and fight the plateau?

Yamar
07-13-2009, 07:20 PM
I can not imagine a 258 lb man eating 1500 calories a day. Sorry I don't have any good answer's for you but something seems seriously wrong with that. I weigh 130 lbs and my body would devour my bones if I ate 1500 calories a day. Did someone actually suggest you eat a 1200 calorie diet?

Voxxy
07-13-2009, 07:38 PM
Hey, it's a good answer. I'll take any insight at this point. Thanks for the reply, Yamar.

No one suggested it to me. It was weight watchers, and it's basically a 1200 calorie diet (mathematically) although it involves points counting in the place of caloric counting.

I lost 28 lbs pretty quick and easy, and now I'm plateauing at 230. I'm thinking I lost alot of lean tissue and water and now my body is going into "famine" mode.

So, thats why I started this new high protein, cutting/lifting plan. I'm just working to get the calories right. Am I right to think I should do the maintenance math and use the usual calculations for cutting, which puts me around 2300 cals/day?

I thought the 1500 would be enough when I calculated my macros and all that together and it was higher than the diet I was on, but maybe it's not high enough and thats why I've stopped.

Is the time of day for meals and % of macros close at least?

I did search and read the sticky threads and can't really find a direct answer to my case.

vdizenzo
07-13-2009, 07:46 PM
Have you taken any body measurements? Do your pants fit any looser? Personally I think you should up your protein. I also think your carbs should be higher on training days. I am a big fan of nutrient timing, read this article http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/nutrient-timing-when-science-and-marketing-collide/

Voxxy
07-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Have you taken any body measurements? Do your pants fit any looser? Personally I think you should up your protein. I also think your carbs should be higher on training days. I am a big fan of nutrient timing, read this article

Cool,

I've actually read that earlier this week, but will reread it and apply it to the reworking of my plan.

My pants are a bit looser and my man boobs seem smaller this week. I specifically notice myself fitting into shirts I didn't like a month ago.

I'll take some measurements and keep and eye on that.

Any suggestion on grams of protein per day I should up it to?

Dingus
07-13-2009, 07:51 PM
Your time of day is off, you need to get your carbs in in the morning and not at night. Postworkout you need them regardless of what time of day it is, but I don't think crystal sugars is your best bet, I actually don't even know what they are I'm just guessing. Waximaize works well. You also definitely need to eat more protein. On days you don't train drasticall cut the carbs and add some more fat. On days you do train try to add in more complex carbs earlier in the day. I'm far from a nutritionist but your missing some basic stuff.

Dingus
07-13-2009, 07:52 PM
260-300 grams/day I think.

Voxxy
07-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Your time of day is off, you need to get your carbs in in the morning and not at night. Postworkout you need them regardless of what time of day it is, but I don't think crystal sugars is your best bet, I actually don't even know what they are I'm just guessing. Waximaize works well. You also definitely need to eat more protein. On days you don't train drasticall cut the carbs and add some more fat. On days you do train try to add in more complex carbs earlier in the day. I'm far from a nutritionist but your missing some basic stuff.

Cool, I appreciate the advice.

The crystal sugars are basically kool aid in dry bulk form with the sugar added. I was told to throw a scoop of those into my post workout protein shake cause they are used quicked and easily by the body.

So thats a bad idea?

KingWilder
07-13-2009, 08:37 PM
I would up calories and adjust accordingly...at your current size you should be closer to 2500, not 1500. Try that for a week or so (getting all your macros in order..at least 200g protein, 80g healthy fats, rest can be whatever). IF and only if after a week or so (give your body time to adjust to adequate calorie amounts) you aren't seeing weight loss, try slowly lowering by 10%.

Optimum08
07-14-2009, 08:28 AM
I would up calories and adjust accordingly...at your current size you should be closer to 2500, not 1500. Try that for a week or so (getting all your macros in order..at least 200g protein, 80g healthy fats, rest can be whatever). IF and only if after a week or so (give your body time to adjust to adequate calorie amounts) you aren't seeing weight loss, try slowly lowering by 10%.

Its a process and you need time to figure out your own personal maintenance calories, when you figure out the caloric level where you don't gain/lose weight then drop cals by 10-15% and go from there.

Voxxy
07-14-2009, 08:33 AM
Yeah, I'm finding that part pretty difficult. I mean, technically right now I'm maintaining at 1500 cal, but I believe it's a plateau and not true "maintaining".

I'm not in a rush though and willing to take the time to go through the process. I'd like to be 190 and 10% someday. Thats a goal for me.

malkore
07-14-2009, 10:29 AM
That's not enough fat if you ask me. 35g? pffft. you're probably so low on fat that some natural hormone production is suffering (i.e. testosterone).

nothing wrong with getting 30% of your daily calories from fat, especially the healthy omega fats. I'd wager 30% fat calories is gonna mean more like 70g of fat...double your current intake.

Clifford Gillmore
07-14-2009, 03:28 PM
Yeah, I'm finding that part pretty difficult. I mean, technically right now I'm maintaining at 1500 cal, but I believe it's a plateau and not true "maintaining".

I'm not in a rush though and willing to take the time to go through the process. I'd like to be 190 and 10% someday. Thats a goal for me.

Your body is still in a 'I'll store whatever the hell I get my hands on' stage, so your calories in are getting stored and held onto for as long as possible - and your glycogen stores are being used for energy, which is why you feel so worn down and tired.


Have a look at some Power Eating books, nutrition for athletes etc. And also have a look at the way you are trying to lose weight with cardio, is it Solid State or is High Intesity Interval Training (Like Tabata)? Like VDizenzo has stated, up your protein! Get it to anything around 1g per lean muscle mass and you will start to see very cool things happen, so around 200g to start with. Then you want to have at LEAST 90-100g of good fat.

So with those two numbers alone you need 1700cals, PLUS the carbs required for that day. So on your off day I'd say something like 200g carbs and on your training days around 250-280g. Bringing your total calories between 2500 and 2820. This is how your body works!! You NEED the protein and the fat for healthly hormones, muscle growth, hell EVERYTHING. They stay the same, 90% of the time you don't need to change the amount - its the carbs you want to vary. Add more to gain weight, take away to drop weight.


Weight watchers is a perfectly fine starting point, but once you stall out - like you have, you need to fine tune things a bit more. You want to hang on to some muscle and not just weighless right? Have a read of the diet stickes and poke around a little, you'll find a wealth of information here on WBB - and If your willing to listen, we are more than willing to help you reach your goals.

Yamar
07-14-2009, 05:18 PM
This artical is the most practical article on diet I have found. It's also the way I am structuring my diet and it's working. See here:
http://builtblog.wikidbody.com/2009/01/24/the-do-it-yourself-diet-comfort-food-for-life/

It's real simple. Find your maintenance calories(body weight x13-15 you may have to experiment for a week). To lose weight eat 20% under maintenance, to gain weight eat 20% over.

For macro's protein is 1 gram/lb, fat is .5 grams/lb and the rest make carbs. If you are eating 20% under maintenance and stick with the protien and fat quota the carbs will be quite low.

Optimum08
07-15-2009, 07:47 AM
Great article link Yamar.

Look up anything Built (username) has posted. She is a great, great resource with regards to dieting.

Voxxy- I would look at restructuring your whole diet. You sound like an endomorph (gains weight/fat easily--like me) so you might try a diet getting at least 1 g. protein/lb. of bodyweight and cutting carbs (keeping those around your workout for energy) and upping fats from current levels. Shoot for 2100-2200 cals/day and try that for a week and see how your weight/appearance goes from there.

Voxxy
07-15-2009, 10:18 AM
This thread is awesome guys. I think the consensus view has narrowed it down. I'm gonna recalculate all this stuff using that site and the suggestions here and post it in this thread and let you guys see what I come up with just to be sure.

I'm out of town overnight, so I'll get back to this tommorow.

NormalDude
07-16-2009, 06:09 PM
When you guys say get more good fat I know saturated is the bad one. So which do you go after? And do the all omega 3,6,9 count as good fat?

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-16-2009, 06:29 PM
Saturated fat isn't bad. It has a lot of useful functions in the body, such as the production of testosterone and regulation of hormones in general. If you're lifting weights and maintaining a healthy diet, there's nothing to worry about. The general rule of thumb is .5g of fat per pound of lbm with a third or so of that being unsaturated fats... but it's a personal preference whether you add or subtract fat from your diet... just try and meet the guidelines and adjust accordingly based on your caloric intake.


And do the all omega 3,6,9 count as good fat?
Omega Essential Fatty Acids are fine... they are mono- and poly-unsaturated fats.

Also... your other thread said you are eating around 1800 calories... you're 6 feet/231 pounds... you must be wanting to gnaw off your arms or something. :confused:

NormalDude
07-16-2009, 07:46 PM
Saturated fat isn't bad. It has a lot of useful functions in the body, such as the production of testosterone and regulation of hormones in general. If you're lifting weights and maintaining a healthy diet, there's nothing to worry about. The general rule of thumb is .5g of fat per pound of lbm with a third or so of that being unsaturated fats... but it's a personal preference whether you add or subtract fat from your diet... just try and meet the guidelines and adjust accordingly based on your caloric intake.


Omega Essential Fatty Acids are fine... they are mono- and poly-unsaturated fats.

Also... your other thread said you are eating around 1800 calories... you're 6 feet/231 pounds... you must be wanting to gnaw off your arms or something. :confused:

Yeah I get hungry fast and usually always hungry but I did drop 20 pounds. I just stopped dropping weight. And my lifts have not suffered. I am not sure which way to go at this point

Yamar
07-16-2009, 07:56 PM
When you guys say get more good fat I know saturated is the bad one. So which do you go after? And do the all omega 3,6,9 count as good fat?

A simple rule:

Any fat that stays in liquid form at room tempature(i.e olive oil)= good fat

Any fat that stays solid at room tempature(I.e lard, butter)= bad fat

If you have heart problems and a family history of heart disease keep saturated fats low.

Just stick with fats from nuts, seeds, olive oil, fish and other white meats as your main fat sources. Eat butter, red meat, whole milk or cottage cheese in moderation(these are good sources of sat fats). Saturated fats make up about 5-10% of my total fat intake.

Whatever you do avoid "HYDROGENATED OILS". That is transfat and it will kill you over time. Keep your food from natural sources. Stay away from anything that gets mass produced, shiped and stored in bullk.

Voxxy
07-17-2009, 01:51 PM
Ok guys... I finally got down to the math. Heres what I'm gonna try for a week and see what happens.

229(Starting Weight) X 10 = 2290
Protein = 1.2 X 229 = 275g (275 x 4 = 1100 Kcal)
Fat = .30 X 2290 = 687Kcal (687/ 9 = 76g)
Carb = 1008 + 500 = 1508 - 2000 = 492 Kcal / 4 = 123g

6 Meals w/ 275g Protein, 123gCarbs, 76g Fats. (2279 total Kcal)


Cardio everyday. Weightlifting every second day. On weight lifting days, I split the carbs between breakfast and post workout.

On a day where I only do cardio, I'm going to shift all the carbs to the morning meal.

Yamar
07-17-2009, 04:52 PM
Your probably still under calculating your maintenance calories.

A general rule is bodyweight x13 for sedatery folks(office workers), x14 for moderatly active, and x15 for very active folks(construction workers). Don't forget to add in your cardio. Depending on what you do you add additional calories for that. Whatever sum that gives you subtract 20% and you'll lose weight at a healthy rate.

Mademan118
07-18-2009, 04:40 AM
So you add the amount of calories you burn during cardio to your maintenance calories, then take 20% off of that?

For instance, my maintenance is 2940, I burn 300 cals a day doing cardio (according to the machine, SS on the elliptical), my maintenance is now 3240? And I should be eatting 2612 calories to lose weight?

Yamar
07-18-2009, 03:22 PM
So you add the amount of calories you burn during cardio to your maintenance calories, then take 20% off of that?

For instance, my maintenance is 2940, I burn 300 cals a day doing cardio (according to the machine, SS on the elliptical), my maintenance is now 3240? And I should be eatting 2612 calories to lose weight?

Yes you always want to add your cardio. Maintenance is based on you activity level.