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JasonLift
07-15-2009, 06:57 PM
I am doing something a bit crazy, and I am sure most would not recommend it, but so far it is working out good. I have under developed shoulders and a rather weak overhead press and for some time was wondering how to incorporate it into my training.

I attempted to use overhead press as a supplemental lift after my max effort and dynamic effort work but it was a struggle. My shoulders were usually fatigued and I didn't get much out of it. Bearing that in mind I decided to train my shoulders on a different day using 531. Heres an example of my routine.

Monday ME lower body
work to a max triple on good morning.
Parallel box squats 4 sets of 6 reps.
45 degree back raises working to heavy set of 5.
dumbell side bends 4 sets of 10.
Sled drags

Wed. ME Bench
work to max single on 3 board
4 sets of 6 on dumbell bench press
4 sets of 10 tricep extensions
4 sets of 10 chest supported rows.
4 sets of 15 face pulls.
3 sets of 10 hammer curls.

Thurs DE lower body
10 sets of 2 on squats with straight weight
6 sets of 2 on speed deadlift (one rep conventional and one rep sumo).
4 sets of 10 pylo leg press
4 sets of 20 band curls.
Ab Pulldowns 4 sets of 20
sled drags.

Friday 531 shoulders
Overhead press 3 x3
lateral raises
bent over lateral raises.

Sunday DE Bench
8 sets of 3 reps.
4 sets of 12 dumbell bench press
4 sets of 10 pec deck
4 sets of 10 tates
4 sets of 10 dumbell rows.

This is not set in stone but rather simply what I did last week. I also exclude the pre-hab work I do in the form of band work, etc.

I always do rotator work before and after benching. I am now finishing my second round of the 5/3/1 and its going great. My overhead press is getting a lot stronger and I am constantly setting PRs on my bench. Not to mention my nagging pain in my right shoulder has gone away.

I am not sure how long term this will be, as I assume the stronger I get on my overhead press the more I will be hammering my shoulders, but it seems to be helping out considering how bad my shoulders were lagging.

vdizenzo
07-15-2009, 07:33 PM
Either stick with a 5/3/1 template or Westside. Combining programs is just confusing. When I was doing shoulder presses I did them DE day after triceps. I have also substituted shoulder presses for dynamic bench. I'm pretty fast so I am able to get away with it.

Clifford Gillmore
07-15-2009, 10:53 PM
Don't customize: This probably applies to any program published on this site, but it especially matters for 5/3/1. You must do the program the way it's written.

"People ask the craziest ****," Wendler says, his voice getting louder again. " 'Can I combine 5/3/1 with Westside for Skinny Bastards?' Why not just do one or the other and make progress?

"These same guys then bitch three months later on some message board that the program didn't work. That's like complaining that your girl got pregnant despite you using a Trojan condom, except you forget to mention you were wearing the condom on your freakin' fingers."

....

Morgan McPherson
07-15-2009, 11:02 PM
Thank you Risk for handing out that awesome bitch slap! Seriously, do people think they are smarter than the people who built the program? If you think you could do it better, why use the program as a template in the first place? Because your saying one of three things: either you think your smarter than Louie Simmons, or you think your smarter than Jim Wendler, or you think your smarter than both of them. :tuttut:

Understand the programs and use them, and then re-evaluate. But don't start out all crazy and try and out-think some of the greatest thinkers in strength training.

Kisses and hugs. :hello:

JasonLift
07-16-2009, 04:44 AM
Thats all well and good, but I am not sitting here complaining I am not making progress, but rather that I am smashing PR's since I started doing this.

I started off by saying I knew it wouldn't be recommended, but I am experimenting with it to see what kind of results I get with it, so far they are great. Do I think it will stay that way? Probably not. This was meant more so as a short term solution to help bring up my shoulders through some extra work.

Travis Bell
07-16-2009, 06:07 AM
Jason, that's pretty much the way your Westside template should look like. The only difference is you have your shoulder day, which should be dropped. You might be able to get a few PRs doing that, but in the long run, your shoulders are going to be shot in a hurry.

johnnyo_99
07-16-2009, 07:48 AM
Sometimes you just can't do everything at once, perhaps you should drop DE Bench movements for a while and instead focus on OHP.

HP666
07-16-2009, 10:09 AM
Why not just do 531 and on Military Press day use the Boring But Big accessory work? It's really that simple if your shoulders are lagging.

OR...use Westside and actually train shoulders on your upper body days, now there's a thought.

Carpenters do it with wood.

Hazerboy
07-16-2009, 10:39 AM
I agree man, Its really not a good idea to mix and match. I find it hard to believe, also, that your completely cooked after your ME bench work and any OH pressing work directly after is completely useless for you. Sure, your numbers aren't going to be as great for your OH press work directly after, but you can still make progress and just because you're not pressing at your 100% capacity doesn't mean that the accessory work is useless. In fact, this is true for ALL of your accessory work. Don't you think you could do 5-10 lbs more on DB bench press if you did that first, before your ME bench?? You certainly would, Yet it is still a beneficial exercise to do after regular bench work.

I will also mention that defranco said he's been experimenting with the 5/3/1 set/rep percentage for their ME day, because he likes the extra volume for his younger/weaker athletes. This might actually be something to consider, as fundamentally its still westside - you still have one day to go heavy, and one for speed for each lift. Your ME sets are just tweaked a bit, which I believe everyone does to some extent anyways.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe/41-strength-training/139-helpful-box-squat-tip-a-incorporating-jim-wendlers-531-program-into-the-ws4sb-template.html

"With regards to Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 program…

I think it is an incredible program. I love simple programs that produce BIG results and Jim’s 5/3/1 program definitely delivers!

With that being said, my WS4SB template is still the basic template we follow in my gym for most of our athletes. But, we’ve been experimenting with Jim’s 5/3/1 set/rep/percentage scheme for the squat and bench press on Max-Effort Days for some of our athletes. For example, on Max-Effort Lower Body Day, we will use the 5/3/1 sets, reps and percentages each week for the main lift (free squat or box squat); but then we will follow “our” template for the rest of the workout. I’m usually not a fan of “mixing” programs, but I feel this is the exception to the rule. Jim’s set/rep/percentage scheme works great for the first exercise; then our athletes get the extra volume from our template. This is a great combo for younger athletes (high school & college kids) who can handle – and recover from – more volume. "