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pmm10990
07-17-2009, 11:32 PM
I don't know I personally think that the cleans are too many reps
there is little to no back work, and he considers it an ab work out and wants 100 reps
I really want to do the west side i posted
what do you guys think of it?
just remember if it is completely useless i did not think of it
but if it is i will start it on the intended date.

Lifting: Each workout is followed by 400 abs, 100 reps each section (lower, upper, obliques, back) your choice of exercise.

Percentage based on max repetition.

Tues
Wk1 Wk2 Wk3
Power Cleans: 4x4- 75% 4x4- 75% 3x2- 75%
Full Back Squat: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Bench Press: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Reverse Leg Extensions: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Knee Drivers: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
2 Supplemental Exercises (Your Choice): 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%

Thurs

Snatch: 5x2- 90% 5x2- 90% 3x2- 90%
Front Squat: 4x3- 95% 4x4- 90% 2x6- 85%
Incline Bench Press: 4x3- 95% 4x4- 90% 2x6- 85%
Straight Leg Dead Lift: 4x3- 95% 4x4- 90% 2x6- 85%
Calf Raises: 4x3- 95% 4x4- 90% 2x6- 85%
+1x6- 80%
3 Supplemental Exercises (Your Choice): 4x3- 95% 4x4- 90% 2x6- 85%
+1x6- 80%
Sat

Power Cleans: 4x4- 75% 4x4- 75% 3x2- 75%
Walking Lunges: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Bench Press: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Reverse Leg Extensions: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
Knee Drivers: 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%
3 Supplemental Exercises (Your Choice): 4x6- 80% 4x5- 85% 2x3- 80%

Running: Alternate Day of Lifting

5x10m, 5x20m, 5x30m = ONE SET
Full recovery between sets, 400m warm up and cool down, STRETCH after warm up and cool down

Week 1- 1 set

Week 2- 2 sets

Week 3- 3 sets

Take one day of the week off

J.C.
07-18-2009, 03:42 AM
The only thing I would really criticise is doing 400 reps of ab work. That's insane! That's like a cardio workout. Cut it to 100 or less. Otherwise, there are good exercise choices and it seems like the coach put together an intelligent rep range and progression. Snatch and clean will work the upper back although you could swap one of the bench exercises for pull-ups.

Are you doing this for only 3 weeks? Often, you can only achieve the best gains from strength training after 6 or more weeks.
How long does each workout take? How does the weight training affect your running?

pmm10990
07-18-2009, 06:12 AM
i think it is supposes to last more them 3 weeks. i think we reset after 3 and restart at 1.
I dont know how it affects my lifting, i dont hink it hurts it that much, i played football for 4 years and that was when i gained the most from my lifts.
but then again it took me the 4 years just to see a 250 bench and a 325 squat, so it might hurt me.
And i dont know how long each one takes, i got it in an email from him bout a half hour before i posted it.
Also i cant do pull-ups, not cause i dont want to, i just cant lift my fat ass up.
I was gonna put in lat pull downs and fatman pull-ups for the supplamental exercises. Probably some tri work, and OH presses
oh and what the hell si a knee driver i cant find em online

fulldaddy
07-18-2009, 07:43 AM
What is your discipline? Are you a thrower? I personally would add some back work. If you have some issues discuss it with your coach. Are you at a small school that doesn't have a strength & conditioning coach? Are you doing the same program the sprinters are doing? If you are a thrower - try to find out how top throwers are training.

chris mason
07-18-2009, 08:35 AM
Looks like a typical strength coach b.s. program.

ZenMonkey
07-18-2009, 08:42 AM
I dont think youll need any "supplemental exercises".

Lones Green
07-18-2009, 08:54 AM
Looks like a typical strength coach b.s. program.

LOL!

Your abs are probably going to get weaker by doing 400 reps of reps after each workout

Ron C
07-18-2009, 09:03 AM
wow. that's ridiculous. power cleans are the still the "answer" to every question asked to a highschool/collegiate "strength coach".

pmm10990
07-18-2009, 09:46 AM
yea im gonna knock the abs down.
and i got to a reletivly small school, NJIT
the throwing coach is the overall track coach
this coach wasnt ever a thrower he was a hurdler
we have a different workout then the runers, thiers is less reps and intensity
I am mainly a shot thrower, but i also do disc and hammer
this is my first college year in track
The main reason i want to do supplimental work is because when im done i want to PL, so i want to keep those kinds of lifts in shape, and because there is no upperback, shoulder and tri work, and those are pretty useful throwing muscles if i remember, and i also dont want my lower to to way more developed then my upperbody
so if there r any other changes what do u guys think they should be? or should i do a westside that i posted?

chris mason
07-18-2009, 10:34 AM
wow. that's ridiculous. power cleans are the still the "answer" to every question asked to a highschool/collegiate "strength coach".

Lol, the powerclean, one of the least useful movements an athlete can perform...

Brian C
07-18-2009, 10:46 AM
Its eh.. Ok. Knock down the abs, and add back work as supplemental work. I too not a fan of power cleans

Jason198
07-18-2009, 10:50 AM
I am a HS Football coach and STRENGTH COACH OR WHAT THE CALL IT ON MY CONTRACT IS WEIGHT ROOM SUPERVISOR I have football all year around I also, have boys basketball during season because a lot of them are football players same for baseball both coaches send thee teams in 2 x a wk during there season.

We use a modified west side work out with out any Olympic lifts, and every kid grades 10-12 I mean every kid improved on there 40 time, we use a lot of differant types of sled work and some plyos, lots of glut hams and we take deadlifting super serious


we are small School in Ohio about 32 kids on the team
* 4 dl over 470
* 12 bench over 200
* are squats are real squats 4-5 over 400
* keep in mind this includes out of 32, some kids that are first year players that come out as seniors, some kids that are not athletically gifted, some kids that do not like to work hard

No Olympic lifting for us, not saying its bad I just think other stuff can be used better.

Travis Bell
07-18-2009, 11:13 AM
Lol, the powerclean, one of the least useful movements an athlete can perform...

Quoted for truth

High risk for injury, low return for effort. There are much much better ways to get faster and stronger than using hang cleans. I'm honestly not even sure why they became so popular, but many many strength coaches use them and it's a big mistake.

ZenMonkey
07-18-2009, 11:52 AM
Quoted for truth

High risk for injury, low return for effort. There are much much better ways to get faster and stronger than using hang cleans. I'm honestly not even sure why they became so popular, but many many strength coaches use them and it's a big mistake.

I thin Chris was being sarcastic?

I think they are a very useful tool for athletes.

Travis Bell
07-18-2009, 12:05 PM
No they are not.

They are useless for track and football.

If you want to use Oly lifts, be an Oly lifter. Otherwise they are so far technical it looses it's effectiveness for the athlete, which is pointless when there are other exercises with lower injury risk and higher effectiveness.

chris mason
07-18-2009, 12:08 PM
I thin Chris was being sarcastic?

I think they are a very useful tool for athletes.


Why? Please explain in some detail why they are a useful tool.

joey54
07-18-2009, 12:09 PM
I agree with Travis on that one. If you know how to do them and have access to a great coach, maybe olympic lifts can be great, but the amount of time it takes to learn them and use them with any effectiveness can probably be spent doing other things to get you better at your sport. Do you want to spend half(or more) of the offseason getting good at cleans or half the offseason getting better prepared for the upcoming season?

ZenMonkey
07-18-2009, 12:19 PM
My personal empirical evidence? I realize they may be far too technical to get perfect, which is needed for lower rate of injury. But, from my own experience I have found them to be beneficial for rugby and ultimate frisbee. But, like I said, this is all from my own experience only and what I took note of in my training.

I understand the problem of teaching them on a team level and the time it takes but that has no bearing on how beneficial they may be to an athlete. I found them to benefit my game but I began with the intention to compete in WL. So I definitely see yalls points.

pmm10990
07-18-2009, 12:33 PM
Well the only lift i am really learning is the snatch. ive been cleaning for 4 years.
i dont really power clean, i do a full clean if that makes any difference.
they actual power clean wrecks my knees so i dont mess with it. but i will add the back work and knock down the abs for sure
i mean i dont need to be a body builder, i do need weight to put behind the shot.

Jason198
07-18-2009, 12:46 PM
I have read a bunch of times how a bunch of different countries used Pl to get better OL, TRUE OR NOT i DO NOT KNOW, ken Smith from the WDFPF trains his OL lifters with Powerlifting you can read that on the adfpf website they got a link to his work out.

Most strength coaches in the usa say Ol is good and coach it because there coach taught them that way.

Strength coaches, I went to a big university to watch a practice there scc had a prowler out making one kid use it for like 30 min with out stopping .... he was taking credit for inventing the thing and the worst part is all his other ass. strength coaches believed him. these guys never even herd of defrancos or elite 1 of them did know westside.

chris mason
07-18-2009, 12:54 PM
My personal empirical evidence? I realize they may be far too technical to get perfect, which is needed for lower rate of injury. But, from my own experience I have found them to be beneficial for rugby and ultimate frisbee. But, like I said, this is all from my own experience only and what I took note of in my training.

I understand the problem of teaching them on a team level and the time it takes but that has no bearing on how beneficial they may be to an athlete. I found them to benefit my game but I began with the intention to compete in WL. So I definitely see yalls points.

What does that mean? How did it benefit you?

chris mason
07-18-2009, 12:56 PM
I have read a bunch of times how a bunch of different countries used Pl to get better OL, TRUE OR NOT i DO NOT KNOW, ken Smith from the WDFPF trains his OL lifters with Powerlifting you can read that on the adfpf website they got a link to his work out.

Most strength coaches in the usa say Ol is good and coach it because there coach taught them that way.

Strength coaches, I went to a big university to watch a practice there scc had a prowler out making one kid use it for like 30 min with out stopping .... he was taking credit for inventing the thing and the worst part is all his other ass. strength coaches believed him. these guys never even herd of defrancos or elite 1 of them did know westside.

Lol, pushing a Prowler for 30 minutes non-stop??? Another example of ****ing moron strength coaches...

Travis Bell
07-18-2009, 01:03 PM
I have read a bunch of times how a bunch of different countries used Pl to get better OL, TRUE OR NOT i DO NOT KNOW

This is what has worked at Westside with the college athletes we've been working with.

We have them drop the OL lifts completely when they come in.

Of course they want to re-test them when they are getting ready to head back to school and they are always much higher than they were before.

Joey hit the nail on the head. If you took one lifter (A) and had them work on their Oly lifts during the off season and another lifter (B) and had them focus on the power lifts in the off season, hands down, each time lifter B will be the better athlete at the beginning of the season.

The return on the Oly lifts is just so small. Oly lifts are not about brute force. They are about speed and technique. Football and Field events (like throwing) are about brute force (and technique on throwing) so in the off season you need to be training your ability to produce the most force possible. The power lifts will help you achieve this.

For distance runners in track, I'm more comfortable with them using some Oly lifts. But for throwers, the thing they should be spending the most time on technique with is throwing, not Oly lifts.

I worked with a thrower when I was in college. Initially he was working on powerlifting - he broke school records and ended up placing second at Nationals.

About his junior year he became discontent with the power lifts and wanted to focus on his Oly lifting. His throwing got slower, sloppier and a lot shorter. He finished his senior year with a torn labrum (doc said via hang cleans) and a shorter throw than his sophomore year.

Travis Bell
07-18-2009, 01:05 PM
My personal empirical evidence? I realize they may be far too technical to get perfect, which is needed for lower rate of injury. But, from my own experience I have found them to be beneficial for rugby and ultimate frisbee.

haha I'm not ripping on you ZM, I just chuckled at this a little.

I can appreciate that you're comming at this from your own perspective as an Olympic lifter

chris mason
07-18-2009, 01:33 PM
One point of clarification Travis. To be a top Olympic lifter one DOES need tremendous brute strength in the upper back, legs, and hips. The point is that the Olympic lifts proper will not sufficiently develop the brute strength needed to truly excel in Olypic lifting and THAT is why they are not good as brute strength builders for other sports (which is the ONLY reason other sports should practice them).

READ THE ABOVE CAREFULLY, IT IS A POINT SORELY LOST ON 80+% OF THE STRENGTH COACHES IN AMERICA (AND OTHER COUNTRIES).

Lones Green
07-18-2009, 02:15 PM
That was a great post Chris. A lot of awesome info in here. I had a guy asking me about Oly lifting for football the other day in the gym, I brought up many of these same points.

fulldaddy
07-18-2009, 03:51 PM
Lol, the powerclean, one of the least useful movements an athlete can perform...

I'd love to hear why. You don't appear to a fan of strength coaches in general and i will be the first to agree there are a lot of people out there under that title that aren't qualified. I'd like to hear your take on why NFL S&C coaches are still wasting time having their guys do cleans?

I know our S&C coach at our local D2 school has guys doing a lot of band/chain work, box squats & so on which is neat to see. I guess I am of the opinion that if the athletes buy into a sound program, follows a quality nutrition plan, and is consistant - they are going to excel.

I felt like cleans helped me tremendously with my explosive power so I feel they are a viable exercise. If at some point in my early lifting history I tried to learn them from someone that didn't know how to teach the progession, if I sucked at them, if they aggravated existing injuries - I'd probably not like them very much.

I respect your opinion Chris and look forward to hearing why you think powercleans are one of the least useful exercises an athletes can perform.

ZenMonkey
07-18-2009, 04:46 PM
What does that mean? How did it benefit you?
Here are a couple things I tracked

--I went from a 38'' box jump to a 56'' box jump after beginning practice of the O lifts. (about 1 year)

--My 40 time decreased about 10%. I dont remember the time frame

--The only other thing I can offer is the feeling of being more explosive. Especially on the rugby field. I played prop and before I began practicing the lifts I felt weak and slow at the front of the scrum but after a year of working exclusively on a O routine (+ cardio) I had much more dominance in the front of the scrum. I began being able to control and wheel the scrum much better.

--Also as playing prop it was always my job to hit the F out of the other team inthe rucks. We had to go from pushing in the scrum, to a sprint(usually 10-50 yards) then into a ruck. After practicing the lifts a while I began being the first one to the ruck and usually controlled it much better once I got there.


At the time I was doing HIIT and doing the O lifts on M/W/F and a lot of squatting. Im not sure enough to attribute all of this to practicing WL but it was the only major change I did and I feel my athleticism really increased.

ZenMonkey
07-18-2009, 04:48 PM
haha I'm not ripping on you ZM, I just chuckled at this a little.

I can appreciate that you're comming at this from your own perspective as an Olympic lifter

Yea, I understand the difference in practice and theory but I really think it was the O lifts that pushed my abilities much further.


Haha, no problem man on the ragging. Its actually a really fast paced sport. I used it as my cardio/hiit during rugby season and it worked great. It was also kinda nice to play a team sport where the other team wasnt out to kill me.:hello:

Jason198
07-18-2009, 04:57 PM
Some people laugh at us because we do not do Ol, other coaches in southern Ohio argue all day about the Pc and Ol being so explosive, they can sit back and laugh and argue all they want we will be in the play offs for the 3rd time.

The guy I coach with played at Tn, his strength coach told him he better get his Pc up on test day, he new he could not do it so he said screw it, started Powerlifting went in did the PC test for his coach and hit a pr with out doing the lift all summer, his coach said nice job I told you my program worked.

Lones Green
07-18-2009, 06:09 PM
I'd love to hear why. You don't appear to a fan of strength coaches in general and i will be the first to agree there are a lot of people out there under that title that aren't qualified. I'd like to hear your take on why NFL S&C coaches are still wasting time having their guys do cleans?

I know our S&C coach at our local D2 school has guys doing a lot of band/chain work, box squats & so on which is neat to see. I guess I am of the opinion that if the athletes buy into a sound program, follows a quality nutrition plan, and is consistant - they are going to excel.

I felt like cleans helped me tremendously with my explosive power so I feel they are a viable exercise. If at some point in my early lifting history I tried to learn them from someone that didn't know how to teach the progession, if I sucked at them, if they aggravated existing injuries - I'd probably not like them very much.

I respect your opinion Chris and look forward to hearing why you think powercleans are one of the least useful exercises an athletes can perform.

Sadly, there are a lot of kids/athletes who are taught it wrong and get injured.

Thats one point in the argument against power cleans...

Travis Bell
07-18-2009, 06:41 PM
I'd love to hear why. You don't appear to a fan of strength coaches in general and i will be the first to agree there are a lot of people out there under that title that aren't qualified. I'd like to hear your take on why NFL S&C coaches are still wasting time having their guys do cleans?

Obviously I'm not chris, but if you read further up in the thread, I explained why Oly lifts are a waste of time and I can bet you chris will hold the same opinion.

NFL strength and conditioning coaches are mostly idiots. Plain and simple. Yes I've met many. Talked to them, seen what they do. Lou has consulted with several NFL teams, been up to their facilities to see how they train and what they're having their athletes do and its garbage.

NFL strength and conditioning coaches don't have to be good at their job though. They are working with the top 1% of athletes in the nation, so genetically these guys would be good at football if they sat and watched TV all day. Conditioning is easy to accomplish, although they seem to struggle making it sport specific.


I know our S&C coach at our local D2 school has guys doing a lot of band/chain work, box squats & so on which is neat to see. I guess I am of the opinion that if the athletes buy into a sound program, follows a quality nutrition plan, and is consistant - they are going to excel.

I would greatly disagree with you on this point (speaking as an actual strength and conditioning coach) A crappy program will give you crappy returns. A good program will make the athlete the best athlete they can possibly be, not just a better one.

If the bolded part were true, it wouldn't really matter what kids did in the weight room, so long as they did it they'd be fine. Doesn't really work that way.

The other problem with that statement is most people don't know how to differentiate a "sound" program from an unsound one, like BFS


I felt like cleans helped me tremendously with my explosive power so I feel they are a viable exercise. If at some point in my early lifting history I tried to learn them from someone that didn't know how to teach the progession, if I sucked at them, if they aggravated existing injuries - I'd probably not like them very much.

Nobody is arguing that they don't teach explosiveness. The point here is that there are more effective ways of teaching explosiveness that will also make you stronger at the same time and are less technically demanding.

To get explosive from the Oly lifts, a lifter must first learn how to execute the lift soundly, which takes time. Time spent on technique when instead they could be spending it becoming stronger and faster. There also is no NEED to learn the Oly lifts. It's a waste of time.

Like I said earlier, if you want to learn the Oly lifts, be an Oly lifter. But doing it because you want to be better at a sport is wasting your time.

Oh, and I would guess Chris does like strength and conditioning coaches, he just doesn't like stupid ones LOL.

As stated though, I'm not Chris, I just explained my point of view on this question

fulldaddy
07-19-2009, 09:36 AM
Travis - I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post as I am sure Chris will as well. It is suprising to me that both you and Chris refer to most strength coaches as idiots. You guys appear to have more exposure to what many would believe to be elite strength coaches than I do - my only experiences with that class of coaches are with the Nebraska staff.

Regarding my post - I was only speaking on cleans and did not mention oly lifting as I have only limited experience with it and certainly not enough to speak on. I do agree with you on in that those coaches are working with tremendous athletes - I've coached guys that played in the league and their ability is very impressive. I disagree that they don't have to be good at what they do. Regarding my comment on a sound program - "sound" to me is something people from different teachings & disciplines would regard as adequate. I wouldn't argue that there are other ways to teach/develop explosive power that are less technical and possibly more effective. I AM disagreeing with the statement that you and Chris made that the PC is useless to athletes.

Most football coaches take the time to visit with successful staffs to learn their systems and see if there is something that they might be able to implement. I would imagine strength coaches do the same. I know I'd spend time visiting other strength staffs and I'd dam sure make a visit to Westside.

Basically we disagree on power cleans and that fine. To me it is like trying to argue that the inside zone is the best way to run the football - there are countless ways to get the job. The idea that the higher level strength coaches don't know their stuff is not one I agree with. Just as if a strength coach were to discredit a message board moderator and a lifter from westside - I wouldn't agree with that either.

Travis Bell
07-19-2009, 10:14 AM
My basis of my opinions on strength coaches is from my personal interactions with them as well as spending 2 years pursuing a Exercise Science degree before I realized it teaches you nothing about actually training athletes.

You have to understand, I live in the strength and conditioning world. It's my job to know the best ways to get athletes stronger and faster, so if I say I feel something is worthless, it's because I've seen it in the gym, compared different athletes etc before I've come to that decision

The majority of strength coaches are experts at biomechanics and anatomy physiology. That's it. That crap has it's place, but it won't teach you the most effective way

I understand you see the power cleans as a opinion thing, I however do not. If cleaning massive amounts of weight were making athletes monsters on the field, I'd be all for spending the time teaching them the proper form. It is not, hence why it's a waste of time.

The difference is I'm not looking for adequate. I want the best for my athletes possible because that's the difference between good and great.

kingkong51
07-19-2009, 10:40 AM
My basis of my opinions on strength coaches is from my personal interactions with them as well as spending 2 years pursuing a Exercise Science degree before I realized it teaches you nothing about actually training athletes.

You have to understand, I live in the strength and conditioning world. It's my job to know the best ways to get athletes stronger and faster, so if I say I feel something is worthless, it's because I've seen it in the gym, compared different athletes etc before I've come to that decision

The majority of strength coaches are experts at biomechanics and anatomy physiology. That's it. That crap has it's place, but it won't teach you the most effective way

I understand you see the power cleans as a opinion thing, I however do not. If cleaning massive amounts of weight were making athletes monsters on the field, I'd be all for spending the time teaching them the proper form. It is not, hence why it's a waste of time.

The difference is I'm not looking for adequate. I want the best for my athletes possible because that's the difference between good and great.

Here is my 2 cents and I'll leave it like that. I am and will always be a football coach and strength coach but I also listen and have learned a lot from Travis and Chris. Now here is the problem with OLY lifts the only ones who know how to do them are OLY lifters. Most strength coaches are coming from the background of coaches who read bigger faster and stronger and took it from there. Now I think for quickness training the power clean is beneficial but but for brute strength deadlifts are the way to go and I am not talking about trap bar deadlifts. After being consulted by Chris and doing some sole searching I switched and starting my kids doing deadlifts and they love them. Most Strength Coaches say deadlifts get kids hurt but Piggy backing off Travis whats more dangerous pulling it to waste level or cleaning to your shoulders. I have my boys doing box squats, deadlifts or rack pulls, and Good Mornings and I have seen great strength gains. We all know sports is played with your core and to me those lifts build your core. I should know I have played college ball and only time I got hurt was when i performed and 315 power clean because I am not built to clean and I was 285 but looking about I had a friends who was 6'6 receiver who could clean 330 but did that make him stronger or more explosive no because in any drills dealing with getting physical I would destroy him. I have a Guard now who is an animal hopefully will sign D1 his best clean 245 best deadlift 500 so u think he is weak? by the way he is 16 only been deadlifting this summer. But I have one more who can power clean 275 and deadlift 500 which number will make u say thats one strong MF? Now take it or leave it I can tell you from both views I love power cleans and lived and died by them but I have come to love deadlifts which I will take them over cleans any day now. Going to back to what Ive said before some kids meant to pull, clean, meant to press, and some are meant to squat but coming from a Alabama football coach all of that does not matter if they are going to knock the **** out of somebody.

fulldaddy
07-19-2009, 11:58 AM
Thanks guys. I am not going to keep beating this to death with people I KNOW - know their stuff. I was just looking for an answer to my question. You gave me an answer - which was because the time it takes to teach it isn't worth it and because there are more effective ways to develope explosive power. If I was looking for "adequate" - I wouldn't be asking advice from you guys.

I've been competing in powerlifting for a whopping 10 months and I have a lot to learn yet about the sport. I have come to absolutely love deadlifting and I honestly feel like I could probably powerclean more now than I ever did when I was playing. KK51 - I'd love to learn more about the training template you are doing with your guys. I just started box squating this training cycle and I am very excited about it.

Thanks again - I am going to go squat now.

pmm10990
07-19-2009, 12:15 PM
ok so im gonna drop this and work with my west side.
good lol thats what i wanted to hear

chris mason
07-19-2009, 12:34 PM
I'd love to hear why. You don't appear to a fan of strength coaches in general and i will be the first to agree there are a lot of people out there under that title that aren't qualified. I'd like to hear your take on why NFL S&C coaches are still wasting time having their guys do cleans?

I know our S&C coach at our local D2 school has guys doing a lot of band/chain work, box squats & so on which is neat to see. I guess I am of the opinion that if the athletes buy into a sound program, follows a quality nutrition plan, and is consistant - they are going to excel.

I felt like cleans helped me tremendously with my explosive power so I feel they are a viable exercise. If at some point in my early lifting history I tried to learn them from someone that didn't know how to teach the progession, if I sucked at them, if they aggravated existing injuries - I'd probably not like them very much.

I respect your opinion Chris and look forward to hearing why you think powercleans are one of the least useful exercises an athletes can perform.

I posted this a bit earlier in the thread:

"One point of clarification Travis. To be a top Olympic lifter one DOES need tremendous brute strength in the upper back, legs, and hips. The point is that the Olympic lifts proper will not sufficiently develop the brute strength needed to truly excel in Olypic lifting and THAT is why they are not good as brute strength builders for other sports (which is the ONLY reason other sports should practice them).

READ THE ABOVE CAREFULLY, IT IS A POINT SORELY LOST ON 80+% OF THE STRENGTH COACHES IN AMERICA (AND OTHER COUNTRIES)."

chris mason
07-19-2009, 12:51 PM
Here are a couple things I tracked

--I went from a 38'' box jump to a 56'' box jump after beginning practice of the O lifts. (about 1 year)

--My 40 time decreased about 10%. I dont remember the time frame

--The only other thing I can offer is the feeling of being more explosive. Especially on the rugby field. I played prop and before I began practicing the lifts I felt weak and slow at the front of the scrum but after a year of working exclusively on a O routine (+ cardio) I had much more dominance in the front of the scrum. I began being able to control and wheel the scrum much better.

--Also as playing prop it was always my job to hit the F out of the other team inthe rucks. We had to go from pushing in the scrum, to a sprint(usually 10-50 yards) then into a ruck. After practicing the lifts a while I began being the first one to the ruck and usually controlled it much better once I got there.


At the time I was doing HIIT and doing the O lifts on M/W/F and a lot of squatting. Im not sure enough to attribute all of this to practicing WL but it was the only major change I did and I feel my athleticism really increased.

There are so many variables there. Did you box jump with any regularity prior to Olympic lifts? How do you know it was not simply the improvement in your absolute strength in your legs and hips from squatting that did not provide you the improvements you have noted?

Oh, and for a comparison, I NEVER did any Olympic lifts and both my vertical and sprint speed improved over time. Why? My legs and hips got stronger. You can accelerate a load that is "light" for you a lot faster than a heavy load by definition. So, the most efficient way to improve explosive power is to increase absolute strength.

chris mason
07-19-2009, 01:18 PM
Travis - I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post as I am sure Chris will as well. It is suprising to me that both you and Chris refer to most strength coaches as idiots. You guys appear to have more exposure to what many would believe to be elite strength coaches than I do - my only experiences with that class of coaches are with the Nebraska staff.

Regarding my post - I was only speaking on cleans and did not mention oly lifting as I have only limited experience with it and certainly not enough to speak on. I do agree with you on in that those coaches are working with tremendous athletes - I've coached guys that played in the league and their ability is very impressive. I disagree that they don't have to be good at what they do. Regarding my comment on a sound program - "sound" to me is something people from different teachings & disciplines would regard as adequate. I wouldn't argue that there are other ways to teach/develop explosive power that are less technical and possibly more effective. I AM disagreeing with the statement that you and Chris made that the PC is useless to athletes.

Most football coaches take the time to visit with successful staffs to learn their systems and see if there is something that they might be able to implement. I would imagine strength coaches do the same. I know I'd spend time visiting other strength staffs and I'd dam sure make a visit to Westside.

Basically we disagree on power cleans and that fine. To me it is like trying to argue that the inside zone is the best way to run the football - there are countless ways to get the job. The idea that the higher level strength coaches don't know their stuff is not one I agree with. Just as if a strength coach were to discredit a message board moderator and a lifter from westside - I wouldn't agree with that either.

Us calling the coaches idiots is inappropriate. A better descrition would be ignorant, or ill-informed.

Strength coaching, just like personal training, IS big business and thus has controlling forces which do not allow for change as it would challenge their authority etc. THAT is the problem I have with the profession. I think the idea of a stength coach is GREAT.

ZenMonkey
07-19-2009, 02:22 PM
Interesting read on the subject:

http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=283

Travis Bell
07-19-2009, 03:15 PM
Us calling the coaches idiots is inappropriate. A better descrition would be ignorant, or ill-informed.

Strength coaching, just like personal training, is not big business and thus has controlling forces which do not allow for change as it would challenge their authority etc. THAT is the problem I have with the profession. I think the idea of a stength coach is GREAT.

Nah, most of them are idiots in my opinion.

Not because the lack the knowledge, but because when shown a much much more effective way of doing things, they do not care and instead stick with their bosu balls. It's the ignorance that is added to the arrogance that causes a problem.

I'm just harsh like that I guess.

ZenMonkey
07-19-2009, 03:25 PM
There are so many variables there. Did you box jump with any regularity prior to Olympic lifts? How do you know it was not simply the improvement in your absolute strength in your legs and hips from squatting that did not provide you the improvements you have noted?

Oh, and for a comparison, I NEVER did any Olympic lifts and both my vertical and sprint speed improved over time. Why? My legs and hips got stronger. You can accelerate a load that is "light" for you a lot faster than a heavy load by definition. So, the most efficient way to improve explosive power is to increase absolute strength.

Therein lies the rub!!

But, no, I did no plyo work except the O lifts.

Butcher
07-19-2009, 03:41 PM
Travis, what is your thoughts on DB/KB snatches and cleans being done as supplementary work?

shawno
07-19-2009, 04:01 PM
This is a very interesting thread - great topic, & different points of view.
I'm in the quasi-anti-PC group. Though due mostly to the technical nature of the lift.
Much prefer the high pull or my variation-mid pull. Pulled not as high as typically found by Oly lifters. Don't care for the internal rotation of the shoulder joint on the high pull. Also a big fan of the vast assortment of box jumps for explosiveness.
It is rather sad to discuss training ideas with people who are paid to provide programs/advise/education that are truly ignorant of different, productive ideas.

Travis Bell
07-19-2009, 06:02 PM
Travis, what is your thoughts on DB/KB snatches and cleans being done as supplementary work?

Excellent question Butcher!

I'm a fan of the KB snatches. I like them as a recovery exercise for the shoulders.

The difference between the two (barbell v. KB) is both the weight and with the KBs you can get away with sloppier form without hurting yourself, while still getting the recovery benefits.

They are not however used for strength building, so it's not a lift that we keep record of and try to improve upon and hit PRs. It's used for recovery

Cmanuel
07-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Seems to me that this "to clean or not to clean to improve athletic explosiveness" just dead ends. Its like trying to argue what religion is best, or if theres a god, or whatever. Its an argument that goes nowhere, leaving both parties at a standstill.

Seems to me there are a bunch of ways to get strong and explosive, power clean or not. Bill Starr was a big advocate of the power clean, and i take it that louie simmons isnt from what travis has been saying. But the point is, both are great athletic coaches, both are very succesful, and both seem to have two different ways to reach the same goals.

Edit: After looking at a few articles on the internet, and re-reading some of the above posts, such as this from Travis:

"To get explosive from the Oly lifts, a lifter must first learn how to execute the lift soundly, which takes time. Time spent on technique when instead they could be spending it becoming stronger and faster."

It makes sense. I can understand why other methods would be more efficient at teaching explosiveness, especially if you are faced with a group of athletes that simply dont want to learn the lift.

chris mason
07-19-2009, 07:05 PM
Here is the real deal, and I have preached it forever.

Strength training for athletes should be used to improve the generalized force production capability of the skeletal muscles.

A SPECIFIC RESISTANCE EXERCISE (EXCLUDING SPORT SPECIFIC STUFF LIKE THE SQUAT FOR POWERLIFTING) SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A MEANS TO DIRECTLY ENHANCE ONE'S PLAY ON THE FIELD.

Power cleans will NOT make an athlete any better at their sport (and the following is VERY important) BEYOND ITS ABILITY TO INCREASE GENERALIZED FORCE PRODUCTION. THAT is why it is a poor exercise for athletes. It does not do that function nearly as well as other exercises such as squats, benches, and deadlifts to name a few. Why? The very nature of the movement. You simply cannot load the muscles of the hips and legs to a sufficient degree to optimize force production stimulus with a power clean alone.

I will make an athlete better without cleans than with them. Period. End of story.

Tim K
07-19-2009, 07:27 PM
Great discussion guys. I appreciate the information you guys have put into this thread and I've learned something new. Always a good thing!

bencher8
07-19-2009, 08:43 PM
At Vandy, they do a TON of KB work. swings, snatches, oh press, oh squats, box step ups, sit ups, KB front squats...seems everything has a KB attached to it lol

They do squat, bench, but they also clean a lot. I agree, I dont like the cleans. The main point being, like said above, the best way to increase explosiveness is to increase absolute strength. There are very few players on the team that can clean correctly and they have been doing this lift for 3+ yrs. If they cant teach it in that amount of time, its prolly not going to be taught.

TankofZenzenBB
07-19-2009, 09:08 PM
This is a very interesting discussion, since Iím going to school to be a strength and conditioning coach. When I did my internship at my high school, I told my strength coach I donít like teaching cleans since itís so dam complicated. I rather work with teaching the freshmen squat and bench. He swears by them to do them for every sport. I never benefited any thing from Olympic lifts for football in high school. I was a defensive lineman. The only thing that benefited me was squat the most. I wish I knew a little bit of info I know now in high school. I would do a lot more sport specific exercises for my position. Almost all lifts can be explosive, it just got to be explosive. A very few people when I was senior did clean correctly. I didnít even do them cause I had horrible form at times. it was just to a point that it was too frustrating for me. I searched about this topic a while back since a kid I trained with ask me about cleans.

I found a video about Buddy Morris about his opinion on Olympic lifts.

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kingkong51
07-19-2009, 09:49 PM
At Vandy, they do a TON of KB work. swings, snatches, oh press, oh squats, box step ups, sit ups, KB front squats...seems everything has a KB attached to it lol

They do squat, bench, but they also clean a lot. I agree, I dont like the cleans. The main point being, like said above, the best way to increase explosiveness is to increase absolute strength. There are very few players on the team that can clean correctly and they have been doing this lift for 3+ yrs. If they cant teach it in that amount of time, its prolly not going to be taught.

So true its so hard to teach correct form when it comes down to the clean. There is only one movement is the high pull to me its a great explosive lift that can replace a clean because it generate the explosion.

pmm10990
07-20-2009, 10:46 AM
Ok guys this is a great discussion but my thread got kinda jacked.
What i need to know is should i continue to do my westside, or just take powercleans out of this?

Travis Bell
07-20-2009, 11:15 AM
Ok guys this is a great discussion but my thread got kinda jacked.
What i need to know is should i continue to do my westside, or just take powercleans out of this?

No it didn't. Re-read the thread. All of those who contributed stated their positions pretty clearly.

slashkills
07-20-2009, 11:26 AM
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qouted for awesomeness

TankofZenzenBB
07-20-2009, 01:34 PM
yeah Buddy pretty much sums it up. I would like to show this to strength and conditioning coaches that I know and see what they think.

Tim K
07-20-2009, 07:11 PM
...and what is posted on T-Nation? How to Master the Power Clean by Bryan Krahn. The power clean just might be the best barbell exercise you aren't doing! :lol:

Ron C
07-21-2009, 08:42 AM
My original post about the powerclean was not about it's effectiveness as an exercise. It was to point out that in the S&C world, it's the holy grail of lifts. As I said, it seems to be the "answer" to every question. I find that funny because of the many points that both Chris and Travis made pointing out just the opposite is true. The powerclean is, in most cases, the problem with S&C programs not the solution they hold it to be.

Even more disturbing is most powercleans are actually hang cleans done with very poor form. I once saw a vid of a D1 quarterback who did 405 from the hang. It was the ugliest lift I've ever seen. The bar only moved about 2ft. He jumped, landed in a very wide stance with his knees turned in. He quickly turned his elbows uder the bar and dropped it without actually standing up at all. Afterward, his teammattes malled him, like he'd actually done something to be proud of.

Ryan Hale
07-21-2009, 09:53 AM
I don't like powercleans but the football coaches want the kids to do them,and of course get tested on them.
They are a very hard lift to teach,and form wise it can be a disaster at times.

I'm going to copy all the great info brought forth from the experts on this thread concerning the pro's and cons of this lift.

Ryan Hale

pmm10990
07-21-2009, 01:40 PM
I know you all have given your opinions, but it is all making my head spin.
I think I'm just gonna do a westside, I'll get my seed from DE day and my strength from ME and I think I'll be fine.