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View Full Version : Severed Ties' article: Carb restriction dieting



Jane
04-21-2002, 09:17 AM
After reading this article, I am hoping to get some feedback from the board members. How many people are or have been on a low carbohydrate diet such as atkins, CKD, TKD, etc.? How did you feel? What happend to your body? How did it affect training?

I ask because I'm in ketosis as we speak and have become slightly paranoid about losing muscle.

Also, what did you all think of the article?

Tryska
04-21-2002, 09:25 AM
i've never done a traditional ckd, but i slip in and out of ketosis as necessary....and i've been doing a low-glucose-inducing diet for several months now.

I feel wonderful on it, and energized, much moreso then if i eat a lot of carbs and or sugars. and also i haven't lost any muscle at all on it, although i've been losing bodyfat. I think you ahve to worry about muscle being cannibalized if your calorie intake is too low. But if you are getting enough calories, and your primary source of fuel is fat, because your body is running on ketones, why would muscle be cannibalized? i mean, muscle is a way to get glucose. If you don't need glucose because your bogy is running on ketones, why would catabolism occur?

you know what i mean?

Jane
04-21-2002, 09:33 AM
Good point Tryska. What about training though? Would not getting carbs post training be catabolic?

MonStar
04-21-2002, 11:08 AM
I think that taking in carbs postworkout can be extremely beneficial yes. But personally not taking them in I dont think will make THAT much of a difference. Glycogen replenishment will be sacrificed, and your insulin spike will not happen obviously, but I think that musclemass can be maintained on a low-carb diet. Keep in mind though that NHE is not a ketogenic diet. :cool::cool:

MS

Jane
04-21-2002, 11:11 AM
Actually Monstar I decided to go the CKD route.
I'm curious to how it will affect my training though. Will training still be essential as a method of muscle preservation, since muscle is ideally being spared anyway?

MonStar
04-21-2002, 11:22 AM
Yeah I think so, I have done a CKD a few times before. Worked well for muscle preservation. I dont think that my strength gained that much though. But yeah especially after refeed days on the weekends your workouts will be good. Are you going to be doing a depletion workout that will also help with replenishing your glycogen stores on the weekends. :D:D

MS

Reinier
04-21-2002, 11:33 AM
i dont quite understand the article. i thought a ketosis was the only way to lose the last few % bf, like from 10-12 to 6-8

MonStar
04-21-2002, 11:44 AM
I think that Severed Ties reasoning behind his article was simply that low carb diets arent the healthiest way to go thats all. :D:D

MS

Mark
04-21-2002, 11:56 AM
I haven't read the article but from my experience low carb does not sacrifice muscle - providing your protein intake is high.

I find that if I make the effort to eat plenty of fresh fibrous vegetables my energy levels are OK.

Jane
04-21-2002, 12:06 PM
Mark, I'm a little confused about your last post. by "low carb" do you mean to the point of ketosis? Because without ketosis, a very high protein intake will just lead to a lot of wasted protein converted to glucose for energy.

Blood&Iron
04-21-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Jane
Because without ketosis, a very high protein intake will just lead to a lot of wasted protein converted to glucose for energy.
Same thing will happen even in ketosis, which is the reason for the common recommendation that 75% of calories come from fat, and only 25% come from protein. Ketosis has no inherent advantage in terms of preserving muscle mass unless you are severely restricting calories. It WILL limit catabolism if say you're only getting 800kcal a day or so, though. I'd look for Lyle McDonald's posts on MFW on this subject, as he is the acknowledged guru of ketogenic dieting and wrote the definitive book on the subject. Considering the fact that he has changed his opinion quite significantly in the past few years, he is probably the best source for non-biased information on the subject.

To answer your initial question, I have used CKDs several times in the past with decent results, although they blunted appetite to such a significant degree that I ended up essentially starving myself. The thought of eating was generally repellent. My carb-ups were also severely flawed insofar as I did not limit fat intake. I used the Body Opus training schedule and generally felt quite nauseated and tired during my training sessions. EC is the only thing that got me through them. I much prefer having carbs, and even if you are avoiding them, I'd still have some post-workout.

the_hall
04-21-2002, 06:13 PM
B&I, can you give the link to the mcdonald posts that you mentioned, i would like to read the most updated ckd info, thanks.

Personally, i am starting a ckd diet. I dont care if it is unhealthy, i would rather feel like crap and look good, we all would.

Just curious, has anyone out here done a ckd and lost alot of muscle. Assuming you didn't screw the diet and training up.

I would like to hear some ckd horror stories, just so i can see the bad that goes with all the good stuff i hear about ckd's.

Also, what about cardio schedules, what would be the optimal cardio schedule while on a ckd to retain mass and get lean. I hear on monday is good because it will help get you back into ketosis, should another session be added?

Jane
04-21-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

Same thing will happen even in ketosis, which is the reason for the common recommendation that 75% of calories come from fat, and only 25% come from protein. Ketosis has no inherent advantage in terms of preserving muscle mass unless you are severely restricting calories.

Right. Sorry, I was assuming that in order to get into ketosis, the person would be following the standard 75/25 breakdown.

Blood&Iron
04-21-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
B&I, can you give the link to the mcdonald posts that you mentioned, i would like to read the most updated ckd info, thanks.

Well, I just did a brief search. You can dig around yourself if you really want to find out what he currently thinks. Anyways, here's something anyway:

I think this is probably close to what he currently thinks:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Lyle+McDonald+ketogenic+dieting+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&selm=3AF19ABA.FF064A4C%40onr.com&rnum=5

Excerpt from his book, which he prefaces by pointing out some mistakes:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Lyle+McDonald+ketogenic+dieting+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&selm=3C8F8D2F.86B83FF5%40onr.com&rnum=3

Article that I think is fairly outdated:
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/training-on-ketogenic-diet.htm

Tryska
04-21-2002, 11:03 PM
why would ketosis only preserve muscle mass at severely restricted calories?

Bigmofo
04-21-2002, 11:15 PM
Hey I just finished a ckd diet, I think the diet was great. Lost 21 pounds on 11 weeks I guess I lost some muscle also.. body fat right now its around 10-11% wanted to get single digits, but I am starting exams and I can afford making the examsn on ketosis. The diet was fine, food was easy to find and make, my lifts suckecd but I didnt care, was able to lose weight without doing too much carbio ( I wouldnt recomend this while on a CKD), no sugar cravings, and carb-up days were really fun :). I honestly have to disagree with almos everything on Severe tied's article, honestly I think the article was one of the worsts articles I have read here.

EMan
04-21-2002, 11:54 PM
I'm doing a low carb, med fat (only good fats) high protein diet and it's working like magic. I could swear I've put on some muscle even. I feel great, digestion is great, I have TONS of energy and pump hard in the gym.

The only carbs I eat are from veggies, milk once-twice a week, and apple one-twice a week and whatever carbs are in walnuts and pecans.

I try to do a carbup meal every 1-2 weeks. I'm not in ketosis because of the very high protein intake.

Maki Riddington
04-22-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron


To answer your initial question, I have used CKDs several times in the past with decent results, although they blunted appetite to such a significant degree that I ended up essentially starving myself. The thought of eating was generally repellent. My carb-ups were also severely flawed insofar as I did not limit fat intake. I used the Body Opus training schedule and generally felt quite nauseated and tired during my training sessions. EC is the only thing that got me through them. I much prefer having carbs, and even if you are avoiding them, I'd still have some post-workout.

*** The diet works well for losing fat. Thats about it. Everything you just said I experienced as well.
I'm trying to figure out what my "cutting" cycle will be revolving around now?

Maki Riddington
04-22-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Bigmofo
I honestly have to disagree with almos everything on Severe tied's article, honestly I think the article was one of the worsts articles I have read here.

*** Why, because you disagree with everything mentioned?
Why don't you write one up sometime.
Yes, I'm aware that we're all entitled to an opinion.......

the_hall
04-22-2002, 06:45 PM
maki...do you belive that a ckd will presevre muscle also, you said you think it is only good for losing fat?

bigmofo, how much muscle did you lose bro? are you positive you lost muscle while on the ckd and was it signifigant? how often did you carb up?

Paul Stagg
04-24-2002, 11:09 AM
I've used TKDs with some success.

Lifts stayed up, BF went down.

The two big advantages were the strictness of the diet (I have trouble sticking with diets) which essentially forces you to stick with it, and the blunting of hunger.

Tehre were some pretty severe cons, though.

I live with a non-keto dieter. She tried keto once, and made it about 12 hourse before she ate a bagel, all of the crackers in the house, and a big glass of milk. So, we had to prepare separate meals... she had to watch me eat bacon and mayo, I had to watch her eat pasta.

Brain fog. For about a week, I got stupid.

Energy levels. Teh last time I did a TKD, I was OK in the gym, but not really anywhere else.

Keto isn't for everyone. Given the option, I may do it again, but not this time.

Maki Riddington
04-24-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
maki...do you belive that a ckd will presevre muscle also, you said you think it is only good for losing fat?

bigmofo, how much muscle did you lose bro? are you positive you lost muscle while on the ckd and was it signifigant? how often did you carb up?

*** Sorry, must learn to be more percise with my statements.
I experienced very little if any muscle loss. So judging from my experience I would say it does the job fairly well.
As for strength and muscle gain, I think it's the shiats!!!

Severed Ties
04-24-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Reinier
i dont quite understand the article. i thought a ketosis was the only way to lose the last few % bf, like from 10-12 to 6-8

Reinier I made a point in my article to exclude short periods of carb restriction for contests (but I was able to get as low as 5% before this became necessary)

I'm just sick of seeing people get weaker while dieting. Your lifts may not increase a huge amount while dieting but you should never be getting weaker as you get leaner, if your doing everything properly you should continue to get stronger week in, week out.

ST

HighlyFanatic
04-25-2002, 01:39 AM
well jane, i can tell you one thing... i have been in an induced state of ketosis, and until i took biochemistry classes i never what was goin on.

just try to understand that if you prolong starvation, our body has to find a way to produce energy....usually by lipolysis (and increasing the level of circulating fatty acids for oxidation)... that energy people feel is due to the body trying to maintain homeostasis by using fat stores.

compare that now to somebody who's just gone to an italian restuarant and chowed down on a plate of pasta......he's gonna feel tired, well thats cuz insulin is kickin in and is trying to take the extra glucose away....here i go rattling off

Jane
04-25-2002, 04:23 AM
Highly Fanatic...rattling off while staying on topic is promoted around here. Say as much as you like, you may help a lot of people that are simply browsing this thread. :)

the_hall
04-25-2002, 01:21 PM
St, but doesn't most of one's strength come back when he goes off the ckd diet? I thought the reason your lifts went down is because you dont have glucose/glycogen (whatever it's called) in your muscles?

Doesn't the strength come back to almost what it was before, isn't that the way a ckd works? And if you dont lose muscle, i dont see whats wrong with it except maybe the negative health benefits.

Severed Ties
04-25-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
St, but doesn't most of one's strength come back when he goes off the ckd diet? I thought the reason your lifts went down is because you dont have glucose/glycogen (whatever it's called) in your muscles?

***that can be part of it reason but it is more likely muscle loss as you don't eat carbs to recover glycogen and go lift the weights you used to. Instead you spend weeks after the diet working back to those numbers which is because of mucle loss.

Doesn't the strength come back to almost what it was before, isn't that the way a ckd works? And if you dont lose muscle, i dont see whats wrong with it except maybe the negative health benefits.

***Even if strength came back exactly where it was when the diet ended, most people will diet 4-6 months out of the year....who wants to spend that much time without increaseing their lifts or adding muscle. If you want to get big you can't afford 4-6 months a year without growth. Bottom line is you need to progress day in and day out and carb restriction doesn't offer this for most of the population.


ST

the doc
04-26-2002, 02:05 PM
I think that low/no-carb (atkins) dieting in general is not that productive. I do think carb restriction similar to NHE is very useful for cutting. I would cite some of the benefits mentioned by paul.


I think that for gaining muscle mass carbs are essential (mainly in the hours postworkout) for insulin stimulation. Also, i think fat intake is essential as well. Remember, test is typically synthesized from fatty acids and sterols