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View Full Version : is this a valid statement regarding protein?



JRider23
07-20-2009, 09:05 PM
i was talking to a former PL the other day at my gym and he told me that the body can only assimilate for 20-25 grams of protein at a time.. is this true or not, becuase if so it seems like a lot of people are overdoing their shakes.

EDIT: i am sure it's fine for a bulk, but if you're someone who doesn't want to gain too much weight, but minimal weight, is this an ok standard to go by or not?

thanks

anonymous1
07-20-2009, 09:35 PM
Your former PL friend has no thirst for knowledge and is giving you advice from 20 years ago that is now common knowledge as being false. Be sure to verify any advice he gives you, because he already has demonstrated he is going to give you wrong advice.

Unholy
07-20-2009, 10:03 PM
I sometimes consume 100g of protein in a single sitting, is my body going to tell the last 80g to go F itself? No.

BigCorey75
07-20-2009, 10:26 PM
There is some validity to that statement, there is only so much the body can absorb in a sitting but it is a person on person basis, the more LBM a person has the more they can absorb at a given time, now some can be stored within the muscles and the rest is usually by passed. imo unless your a roided out freak of nature, 100 grams in a shake or one sitting is over doing protein.


most peoples dosages should be around 30-40 grams per serving to make it economical and beneficial, anything more than that your body wont assimilate, u can take it in and your body may eventually get around to using but most of the time people will turn right around and dump more protein in their bodies.


so yes, massive amounts of protein per meal arent neccessary because your body can only break it down so fast to utilize.

your better off sticking to the 30-40 range depending on your size

Unholy
07-20-2009, 11:31 PM
There is some validity to that statement, there is only so much the body can absorb in a sitting but it is a person on person basis, the more LBM a person has the more they can absorb at a given time, now some can be stored within the muscles and the rest is usually by passed. imo unless your a roided out freak of nature, 100 grams in a shake or one sitting is over doing protein.


most peoples dosages should be around 30-40 grams per serving to make it economical and beneficial, anything more than that your body wont assimilate, u can take it in and your body may eventually get around to using but most of the time people will turn right around and dump more protein in their bodies.


so yes, massive amounts of protein per meal arent neccessary because your body can only break it down so fast to utilize.

your better off sticking to the 30-40 range depending on your size

I don't believe this at all. Plenty of people have succesfully bulked and cut retaining all LBM on diet such as Intermittent Fasting and have had great success. When you eat your body takes hours and hours to digest what you ate. Esp if you have fats with your protein. To say that your body just by passes is it bs. Then I shouldn't coun't the cals from protein in my shake if its above 40g? That shake is in my body till I crap. Every last bit of protein is absorbed or metabolized.

anonymous1
07-22-2009, 07:21 PM
BigCorey is completely wrong on this. Your body will use all the protein you give it, in one way or another.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-23-2009, 12:59 AM
BigCorey is completely wrong on this. Your body will use all the protein you give it, in one way or another.
I think you missed the point entirely.

anonymous1
07-23-2009, 07:02 PM
Regardless of interpreting that he means the protein won't go to muscle, it's still completely wrong. If you were to need 200g of protein/day and ate 100g in 2 meals, you would still assimilate they same amount of protein for muscle building as you would with 5 meals of 40g.

It is a myth that some people just like to believe. I really wanted to single out BigCorey because he generally gives accurate advice so he will be believed.

BigCorey75
07-23-2009, 09:07 PM
I don't believe this at all. Plenty of people have succesfully bulked and cut retaining all LBM on diet such as Intermittent Fasting and have had great success. When you eat your body takes hours and hours to digest what you ate. Esp if you have fats with your protein. To say that your body just by passes is it bs. Then I shouldn't coun't the cals from protein in my shake if its above 40g? That shake is in my body till I crap. Every last bit of protein is absorbed or metabolized.

you just made my point, and anonymous1 you did miss the point i was making.

The fact that your body will accept all the protein but it can only use so much at a time, so if you overload your system with too much protein constantly this can lead to dangerous levels of build up, and yes the body can store some if it as fat, but it will never get released back into the muscles because you keep dumping more protein back into the body which will ultimately have you storing more and more fat. which im sure no one wants.

Sticking to smaller amounts of protein through out the day will keep your body with a good steady supply of protein without overloading it and having to store excess as the flab that you dont want.

This is why i say its more a matter of Lean body mass vs actual mass. because if i have a 300 pound out of shape person no way im having them consume 600 grams of protein because their body is already in a fat storing stage. Id like to find out his actual lean body mass and build a protein intake off of something like that, to adequately feed his muscles and get him moving and get his body into a fat burning state.

Dont believe me, look at simple math

take a 200 pound man and say you have him do 2 grams per pound of body weight thats 400 grams of protein. and 454 grams is a pound, so seems simple if i eat 13 oz of meat im good

no no no

all of meat is not protein its like over half water and some connective tissues. 3 oz of chicken yields about 20 grams of protein, so to reach 400 grams of protein one would have to eat 60 oz of chicken per day or just about 4 and a half pounds of chicken. Find me a 200 pound person who can lose weight by eating 4 and a half pound of chicken.

so you say dude thats 10 oz per serving 6 times a day easy i can do that in my sleep.

ok look at carry over the average person is awake 16 hours a day, so 6 meals in 16 hours thats a meal every 2 hours and 30 mins roughly 67 some odd grams per meal ok

Lets take the fastest absorbing protein to proove my point. Whey Protein absorbs roughly at around 13grams/hour so if you consume nothing but whey protein as your intake from breakfast to your next meal your body would have only absorbed around 32 grams, and there is 35 left to be absorbed, then you go and dump another 67 grams on it. So by using this math you have you have to store 35 grams with each meal so after 6 meals u have an excess of 210 grams of aminos and such floating in your fat cells to be released into the body as you sleep, and with 8 hours of sleep you will abosrb 104 grams, this leaves 106 left in the fat cells to be absorbed just in time you wake up and dump another 67 grams in the morning.


so over the course of the week you will have to store 742 grams of excess aminos you have to store. Ill give you the benefit of the advantage of the anabolic window and ill double the absorption rate to 20 grams/hour, which hasnt been definitively proven the body absorbs it any faster, that sstill leaves you with 86 excess grams upon waking on days you workout, and most people workout 4 days a week so at the end of the week u still have 702 grams of aminos left stored that need to be absorbed.


and this is whey Protein which is the fastest absorbing, food proteins absorb at a much slower rate anywhere from 9-3 grams per hour so the pile up of excess proteins and aminos in fat cells would cause a problem.


This is why i say a person is better off keeping it at lower rates of 30-40 grams per sitting and shooting for one gram per pound of absorption, this way yo don't store excess protein as fat and consistently gain good lean body mass and not overfeed yourself and expend to much excess money on supps that you are over using.


Now you can do what Unholy said and do some Intermittent fasting and modified starvation diets but honestly, who wants to do that? consistency and simplicity is better, keep your intake smaller per meal, your body can assimilate it better and you will be healthier in the long run

hope that states my point clear enough

BigCorey75
07-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Regardless of interpreting that he means the protein won't go to muscle, it's still completely wrong. If you were to need 200g of protein/day and ate 100g in 2 meals, you would still assimilate they same amount of protein for muscle building as you would with 5 meals of 40g.

It is a myth that some people just like to believe. I really wanted to single out BigCorey because he generally gives accurate advice so he will be believed.

again lets look at math and a point i forgot to overlook. Depending on the person and the efficiency of their fat cells the aminos can be harder to retrieve out of some peoples cells that others.

sooo lets take it like this, lets make a person with extremely efficient cells. and from the combination of protein intake from foods and shakes, lets say for the sake of math his average absorption rate is 10 grams/hour, 24 hours a day, if he ate nothing but protein and pure protein he will have a deficit of 40 grams at the end of the day.

but this is perfect unrealistic tallies. People often who consume lots of protein will eat some fat and carb along with it, and they will get assimilated as well into the digesting and metabolic process.

Then you have to realize peoples fat cells arent always as efficient as they need to be so in the majority of the people in the world its harder to get the aminos out of the fat cells than with digestion so even in a perfect unrealistic coincidence the person is only in a 160 calorie a day deficit.


so technically your right, no matter how u get your requirements for protein you will get them, but there is always an more efficient way to deliver it to your body so your body is more ready able and willing to use this supply of aminos

anonymous1
07-28-2009, 04:59 AM
All of that is still completely wrong.

If the OP wants, I will go through and correct it all but otherwise I don't feel like spending time on it. Don't have enough as it is.

Holto
07-28-2009, 08:49 AM
BC:

You're quite right with a lot of what you're posting but there is quite a bit wrong too. You clearly have a good working understanding of nutrition but there are some inaccuracies there. For example, muscle is connective tissue. There are only 4 tissue types in the body.

BigCorey75
07-28-2009, 02:49 PM
Ok, well feel free to tell me HOW im wrong,

im definetly ok with that i have no problem admitting when im wrong and someone is right as long as you can prove it to me through some numbers, some science and figures, even links would help.


Dont just say "im all wrong" but dont bother to explain why and how im wrong.


dont worry im a big boy i can take it....lol

Holto
07-28-2009, 03:09 PM
again lets look at math and a point i forgot to overlook. Depending on the person and the efficiency of their fat cells the aminos can be harder to retrieve out of some peoples cells that others.

We don't store amino's in fat cells. They can't be stored and are converted to glucose or keytones.

sooo lets take it like this, lets make a person with extremely efficient cells. and from the combination of protein intake from foods and shakes, lets say for the sake of math his average absorption rate is 10 grams/hour, 24 hours a day, if he ate nothing but protein and pure protein he will have a deficit of 40 grams at the end of the day.

The bodies absorbtion rate for protein as a percentage is 100%. You will absorb all the protein you eat, the % that is used for building/repairing muscle is a totally different issue. This is where I'm sure we all agree you're probably better to spread it out.

but this is perfect unrealistic tallies. People often who consume lots of protein will eat some fat and carb along with it, and they will get assimilated as well into the digesting and metabolic process.

Then you have to realize peoples fat cells arent always as efficient as they need to be so in the majority of the people in the world its harder to get the aminos out of the fat cells than with digestion so even in a perfect unrealistic coincidence the person is only in a 160 calorie a day deficit.


so technically your right, no matter how u get your requirements for protein you will get them, but there is always an more efficient way to deliver it to your body so your body is more ready able and willing to use this supply of aminos

See bold.

anonymous1
07-28-2009, 03:28 PM
lol I know you are cool, I always read your posts. I honestly just don't have a lot of time to spend on the forums so I just try to comment when the threads have very little replies, or a general consensus that is wrong. I'll go through it a bit because I agree it's rude to just make one liners and not back them up.

I'm not following "use so much at a time" other than the interpretations I mentioned before. The body will use 100% of the protein you give it either directly for muscle building or used as energy as glucose. If after muscle building and energy is covered, it will then go to fat - but NOT the protein, it would be the leftover glucose which would have gone to fat regardless.

Dangerous levels of build up? This is just wrong, the protein waste products are extreted in urine and are water soluble which means there can't be a build up. Urea and ammonia don't sound too nice, but in regards to protein it's just the normal digestive process and excess is extreted. End of story. If you have information that proves there is a a dangerous build up - you need to cite the reference as I can't really prove the negative.

You seem to think that protein just goes to muscle, and if not needed then goes to fat. This isn't the case. It goes protein, if not used turns to glucose, if not used turns to fat. Where your logic breaks down is that there is not direct spill-over to fat just from muscle building needs not being met. The calories from the protein will be used as needed - if you store fat that is just because you are eating too many calories.

It is 100% wrong that the body can pull protein back out of fat stores as well. If it goes digging for protein, it's breaking down muscle. There is no direct connection between protein and fat. Protein can't be stored as fat, and fat can't be turned back into protein.

The benefits of eating more protein than is necessary for strictly muscle building is that you only have 2 others options: fat and carbs. You don't want to use carbs, because they have direct spill-over to fat that protein doesn't and also bring insulin into play that messes with energy levels and causes you to store more fat. You don't want to use fat, because once basic needs are met for hormonal reasons you're just eating extra fat. This, combined with a high carb intake and a diet over maintenance calorie level is the perfect environment for heart disease and is just a slow burning energy source.

So, you're best with:

high protein
moderate carbs
"low" fat

All of your info is just wrong here, its kind of weird. All the arguments are based on false notions.

anonymous1
07-28-2009, 03:29 PM
Ah cool Holto will come in with all the specifics, if he so desires. Mr. encyclopedia. I'm trying to keep it out of PubMed. lol.

joey54
07-28-2009, 04:01 PM
Many real life examples of individuals eating very high protein intakes and getting good results. Are there other factors into play? Probably. Have I had good results when I up my protein intake? Absolutely. This is much simpler than everyone is making it. Figure out how much protein YOU need to grow by experimenting and go with that. One recommendation does not work for everyone.

BigCorey75
07-28-2009, 07:22 PM
anonymous- i see your point.


But i think we missed each others point in argument, i get what your saying is right i think we were arguing two different things and it was my mistake. I was in the mind set of protein intake for someone trying to lose the weight vs gain weight, as you can see in my fat guy reference in post #9

So yeah we agree its better being spread out through out the day so it can be used for the muscles solely but our main dispute seemed to be where does the excess go and yeah I went and did some excess reading of some studies and yes sir you were right....ha ha ha :bow:

But ill still debate about the fat, people need more healthy fats in the diet, because as long as the insulin remains in check, now i don't tell people to go free base bacon bits or anything but some good servings of EVOO and fish oils and fatty fish and beef aren't going to kill ya, in fact it will do you some good. People have been eating diets high in fat for thousands of years with no health affects the health problems came in when the diet became more full of processed carbohydrates.

Glaive
07-28-2009, 11:32 PM
BC:

You're quite right with a lot of what you're posting but there is quite a bit wrong too. You clearly have a good working understanding of nutrition but there are some inaccuracies there. For example, muscle is connective tissue. There are only 4 tissue types in the body.

Unless every biology professor I've ever had was wrong, you are mistaken here. Muscle is muscle tissue, not connective tissue.

You are correct that there are only 4 tissue types, but they are muscle tissue, nervous tissue, connective tissue, and epithelial tissue.

anonymous1
07-29-2009, 06:38 AM
In a diet with calories below maintenance, you would still want to fill in extra calories with protein. Keeping amino acids in the blood stream as much as possible will keep the body away from the amino acids in your muscle tissue. The protein to glucose thing is not a small issue either - you're getting carbs without an insulin response. The process of converting protein to carbs also has a calorie burning effect that adds up if you are eating 400g/day.

The way I build diets is to try to think about what the body really needs. It needs the EFA's as you said, but at most you're only looking to get 1000 legitimate EFA calories. Additional fat will just be an energy source and one without a metabolic calorie cost and with a direct fat storage path. It is also not a good idea to have high levels of fatty acids in your blood stream at all times although that is only really important if you are over maintenance calories and eating a lot of carbs with it.

You also "need" some carbs. Carbs aren't essential to run the bodies processes, but things do work better with some of them. You mainly need carbs upon waking because while you are sleeping the body is using liver glycogen stores. 25-50g of carbs upon waking will restore that. You also need carbs before and after lifting. Other than that, you don't really need them.

Fill the rest of the calories in with protein which the body can use for amino acids, glucose, or fat and does not spike insulin unnecessarily. High calories the insulin issue is most important, low calories the amino acid issue is most important but either way you're best off getting the majority of your calories from protein.

Holto
07-29-2009, 09:04 AM
Unless every biology professor I've ever had was wrong, you are mistaken here. Muscle is muscle tissue, not connective tissue.

You are correct that there are only 4 tissue types, but they are muscle tissue, nervous tissue, connective tissue, and epithelial tissue.

Hey thanks man, I was thinking of the super selectively permeable stuff like in the enterocytes in your intestines. I think it's called lymphatic tissue.

Glaive
08-01-2009, 01:08 AM
Hey thanks man, I was thinking of the super selectively permeable stuff like in the enterocytes in your intestines. I think it's called lymphatic tissue.

Enterocytes are epithelial cells.

Lymphatic tissue is indeed a form of connective tissue, so I guess that might make sense if it was what you were attempting to say above.