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Virtron
08-09-2009, 02:10 PM
So today was my max squat day...

about 3 weeks ago I maxed out on the box squat at 215...

today...

barx10
135x5
165x3
195x1
215xfail...

I'm still new so I'm not sure what to attribute this failure to... can someone help?

gatorman2k6
08-09-2009, 02:26 PM
People are going to want to know your program and how long you have been training. Off the top of my head, I would say that you shouldn't be maxing so often and they are going to say you are 160lbs and only squat 225, so eat and keep squatting.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but it is fair warning to what everyone will say. Suggestions will also include post a video and read the stickies. Sorry I can't give much help but I don't have as much experience as everyone else on here so I'll leave it up to them.

Virtron
08-09-2009, 02:34 PM
People are going to want to know your program and how long you have been training. Off the top of my head, I would say that you shouldn't be maxing so often and they are going to say you are 160lbs and only squat 225, so eat and keep squatting.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but it is fair warning to what everyone will say. Suggestions will also include post a video and read the stickies. Sorry I can't give much help but I don't have as much experience as everyone else on here so I'll leave it up to them.

actually thanks... I max out once every three weeks on the box squat... this is my second time maxing out on it so far... I've been training since may. I use the conjugate method.

Here is a link to my journal. My training starts in may of this year.
My Journal (http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117026&page=2)

What is strange is that I have made progress on the deadlift but went down on the box squat... I dunno. I mean i'll accept what is and keep going, but it would be nice to know what happened.

JSully
08-09-2009, 02:43 PM
there could be a few factors..

1) you're overtrained - when was your last deload?
2) you're not eating enough - what is your calorie consumption? are you in excess?
3) you're form is off OR your form WAS off and now is fixed and you're working back up - this is a possibility.. as you get more experience and watch videos you correct your form.. a minor correction can initially set you back a few weeks but ultimately lead you to success
4) you had a bad day - this happens to all of us, hell it happens to me at least once every 2 weeks. I'll head into the gym feeling strong and yet every single thing I do feels like 2x the normal weight..

Just keep at it bro.

Travis Bell
08-09-2009, 02:51 PM
It's really about impossible to tell without video

Lones Green
08-09-2009, 02:56 PM
It's really about impossible to tell without video

Yup, could be a million different things

Virtron
08-09-2009, 03:32 PM
thanks guys... believe it or not these are encouraging words... from now on i think i'll record all my max effort lifts.

as far as calorie consumption, there was a 2 day gap when i didn't have my protein. So that made me consume much less than i usually do... another thing I think I just realized is that when I sat back on the box, my core relaxed. i'm starting to recall the lift fully. I squat off of a 12 inch box. thats a lot less than slightly below parallel. what happened was that I went up and got stuck at a point slightly above parallel. So I was several inches above the box but it wasn't budging. But yeah... VIDEOS... definitely recording from now on. Look forward to next sunday. I'll post my max DL video.

chris mason
08-09-2009, 04:17 PM
In my opinion, less than world class athletes should practice an ME movement for 3-4 successive sessions. You simply don't have the neural acclimation to the movement that a more advanced lifter does and switching movements too often is less productive. Louie talks about going backwards after 2 weeks which is true for most high level lifters, but not for beginner or intermediate trainees.

So, in short, you probably are stronger. If you box squat again next week I bet you smoke the 215 lbs and then more the following week. Your nervous system is simply not optimized for the movement and you therefore were not able to demonstrate your increased strength.

BFGUITAR
08-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Am I the only person who sees a problem with maxing on a box squat when your max is only 225? I would think you simply need more time under the bar and just doing normal squats. Correct me if im wrong...

BigTallOx
08-09-2009, 04:37 PM
Strength isn't constant. That's why in max effort sessions you work up to a max *FOR THAT DAY* it's not always a PR, and IMHO the longer you train the more it's NOT a PR. Don't worry about it. IMHO it doesn't matter as much WHY you failed but what you do when you do fail. Personally, I probably would have tried the 215 one more time ( to make sure it wasn't a technique or mental reason you didn't get the first one ), or possibly drop it down a little and try again, just because you can't get a PR that day, you still need enough volume at the top to get stronger.

Virtron
08-09-2009, 05:07 PM
In my opinion, less than world class athletes should practice an ME movement for 3-4 successive sessions. You simply don't have the neural acclimation to the movement that a more advanced lifter does and switching movements too often is less productive. Louie talks about going backwards after 2 weeks which is true for most high level lifters, but not for beginner or intermediate trainees.

So, in short, you probably are stronger. If you box squat again next week I bet you smoke the 215 lbs and then more the following week. Your nervous system is simply not optimized for the movement and you therefore were not able to demonstrate your increased strength.

hmm... I didn't think of that. I will definitely consider it. Thanks.

Virtron
08-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Strength isn't constant. That's why in max effort sessions you work up to a max *FOR THAT DAY* it's not always a PR, and IMHO the longer you train the more it's NOT a PR. Don't worry about it. IMHO it doesn't matter as much WHY you failed but what you do when you do fail. Personally, I probably would have tried the 215 one more time ( to make sure it wasn't a technique or mental reason you didn't get the first one ), or possibly drop it down a little and try again, just because you can't get a PR that day, you still need enough volume at the top to get stronger.

You know you're probably right. I'll keep that in mind.

gatorman2k6
08-09-2009, 05:49 PM
In my opinion, less than world class athletes should practice an ME movement for 3-4 successive sessions. You simply don't have the neural acclimation to the movement that a more advanced lifter does and switching movements too often is less productive. Louie talks about going backwards after 2 weeks which is true for most high level lifters, but not for beginner or intermediate trainees.

So, in short, you probably are stronger. If you box squat again next week I bet you smoke the 215 lbs and then more the following week. Your nervous system is simply not optimized for the movement and you therefore were not able to demonstrate your increased strength.

I guess that I didn't mean to rotate every so often, but more, should he constantly be going for 1RM? I read that Tate made some suggestions in order to do the exercise for 3 or so weeks, but to not go for a 1RM each week. I know some suggest going for a 5rm, 3rm, then a 1rm and then switch exercises. If he is ok doing the same exercise consecutive weeks, should he still be going for a 1RM?

Travis Bell
08-09-2009, 06:00 PM
Am I the only person who sees a problem with maxing on a box squat when your max is only 225? I would think you simply need more time under the bar and just doing normal squats. Correct me if im wrong...

It's not a problem so long as he's getting enough volume in. Be it repeated singles at a max weight, or enough volume in ascessory work with other movements.

slashkills
08-09-2009, 08:02 PM
In my opinion, less than world class athletes should practice an ME movement for 3-4 successive sessions. You simply don't have the neural acclimation to the movement that a more advanced lifter does and switching movements too often is less productive. Louie talks about going backwards after 2 weeks which is true for most high level lifters, but not for beginner or intermediate trainees.

So, in short, you probably are stronger. If you box squat again next week I bet you smoke the 215 lbs and then more the following week. Your nervous system is simply not optimized for the movement and you therefore were not able to demonstrate your increased strength.

Ive tried maxing on the same exercise two weeks in a row several times and every time i got weaker. My lifts are pretty similiar to the OP

Clifford Gillmore
08-09-2009, 08:31 PM
In my opinion, less than world class athletes should practice an ME movement for 3-4 successive sessions. You simply don't have the neural acclimation to the movement that a more advanced lifter does and switching movements too often is less productive. Louie talks about going backwards after 2 weeks which is true for most high level lifters, but not for beginner or intermediate trainees.

So, in short, you probably are stronger. If you box squat again next week I bet you smoke the 215 lbs and then more the following week. Your nervous system is simply not optimized for the movement and you therefore were not able to demonstrate your increased strength.

Fantastic advice. I spent WAY too much time when I first started training reading louie's articles and decided that I needed to rotate every week - I spent a long time being very weak to say the least.

Virtron; How come you only did 4 sets? Try and make some smaller jumps with just singles/doubles/triples up to your max weight, so you get overall volume in for the day. Ie;

BW x 5
bar x 5
bar x 5
90 x 3
135 x 3
150 x 3
180 x 2
200 x 1
Max attempt x 1
200 x 1

This wasy you also get your three lifts over 90%, the quickest way to get stroooong.

SELK
08-09-2009, 09:54 PM
Ive tried maxing on the same exercise two weeks in a row several times and every time i got weaker. My lifts are pretty similiar to the OP

You don't always have to go to a 1rm.

I often do ME waves of box squats like this:
w1: 5 rep max
w2: 3 rep max
w3: 1 rep max / new PR

Ive also done 2 week waves of 3/1 and 5/1.

This kind of squat cycle has been the base of my squat training for some time, I don't do a whole lot of accessory work.

MarcusWild
08-09-2009, 10:52 PM
I think Chris is right on rotation. I used to be able to do the same exercise 2 weeks in a row and PR. I think volume is what's going to get you stronger at this point. I'd do all sets of 3 up to a 3RM. Stop on the set when you can do 1 or 2 reps, but now you'd miss a 3rd. Try to not miss. That will get you a lot more volume.

Virtron
08-10-2009, 07:55 AM
It's not a problem so long as he's getting enough volume in. Be it repeated singles at a max weight, or enough volume in ascessory work with other movements.

I figured I would need more volume at that point. So I hit the leg press for 4 sets.

Virtron
08-10-2009, 07:57 AM
Fantastic advice. I spent WAY too much time when I first started training reading louie's articles and decided that I needed to rotate every week - I spent a long time being very weak to say the least.

Virtron; How come you only did 4 sets? Try and make some smaller jumps with just singles/doubles/triples up to your max weight, so you get overall volume in for the day. Ie;

BW x 5
bar x 5
bar x 5
90 x 3
135 x 3
150 x 3
180 x 2
200 x 1
Max attempt x 1
200 x 1

This wasy you also get your three lifts over 90%, the quickest way to get stroooong.

You know I can definitely agree with that... I totally miscalculated the amount of plates that were on the bar. when I got to 195 I was like "****..." but I tried it anyway. You're right. I usually have like 6-7 sets before I try a new weight.

Virtron
08-10-2009, 08:04 AM
Again thanks everyone for your feedback... My training partners are limited to articles and youtube... so, I could use the help.

chris mason
08-10-2009, 12:11 PM
Don't take the advice of everyone. I say that because trying to do everything suggested, or even most of it, will not serve you. You also don't need more volume and to do 4 sets of leg press after all of those sets of squats. Finally, at your strength level, you DON'T need so many warm-up sets.

Virtron
08-10-2009, 12:20 PM
Don't take the advice of everyone. I say that because trying to do everything suggested, or even most of it, will not serve you. You also don't need more volume and to do 4 sets of leg press after all of those sets of squats. Finally, at your strength level, you DON'T need so many warm-up sets.

I'm taking your advice as far as maxing out on a particular lift for 3-4 weeks. I'll take the warm-up suggestion into consideration... I'm not sure what you mean about the leg presses. Is 4 sets too much volume?

chris mason
08-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Possibly, yes. What is your goal?

Virtron
08-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Possibly, yes. What is your goal?

my goal is to deadlift in the 400s by the end of the year and to squat 300. I read that someone at my height needs more mass. Hence, i did the extra set. Is this accurate thing to do?

barbell01
08-10-2009, 03:59 PM
eat more and train more and eat even more, don't think too hard about it.

chris mason
08-10-2009, 07:09 PM
my goal is to deadlift in the 400s by the end of the year and to squat 300. I read that someone at my height needs more mass. Hence, i did the extra set. Is this accurate thing to do?


More volume does not necessarily equal more mass. If you want to stimulate a bit of extra hypertrophy make sure you are consuming on the order of 23+ calories per lb of body weight. In terms of the leg press, do just one set of 20+ reps to failure AFTER your ME set on squats. That will give you the size stimulus you seek without overtraining.

Clifford Gillmore
08-11-2009, 03:47 AM
Don't take the advice of everyone. I say that because trying to do everything suggested, or even most of it, will not serve you. You also don't need more volume and to do 4 sets of leg press after all of those sets of squats. Finally, at your strength level, you DON'T need so many warm-up sets.

Why do you recommend limited warm-up sets Chris? I know the EFS basic training has a page about people not feeling like they have done enough work;.

I know Jim Wendler talks about this in the EFS Basic Manual, as well as a few other elite level lifters talked about total volume for beginners ie; Lifting over 2000lbs on ME day rather than 500lbs of total volume.

chris mason
08-11-2009, 11:53 AM
Why do you recommend limited warm-up sets Chris? I know the EFS basic training has a page about people not feeling like they have done enough work;.

I know Jim Wendler talks about this in the EFS Basic Manual, as well as a few other elite level lifters talked about total volume for beginners ie; Lifting over 2000lbs on ME day rather than 500lbs of total volume.

Because it simply serves no purpose in my mind. The only benefit would be neural in terms of learning the correct form and you can get that with training frequency. If your max squat is 200 lbs you simply don't need many warm-ups to get there.

Virtron
08-16-2009, 04:43 PM
Because it simply serves no purpose in my mind. The only benefit would be neural in terms of learning the correct form and you can get that with training frequency. If your max squat is 200 lbs you simply don't need many warm-ups to get there.

Ok here are my videos... let me know what you think...

Box Squat NOT failure thread... (http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2193861#post2193861)

Sean S
08-16-2009, 07:15 PM
First of all, your elbows are pointed straight back which tends to dump everything forward. Then when you come off the box, everything dumps forward. You can actually see the bar itself move forward instead of going straight up. When this happens you can also see the weight transfer to your toes.
Get your elbows down and come straight up off the box. You will have to work with submax weights to get the form down. Also do lots of accessory work for the glutes and hamstrings so they get strong enough to get you off the box without dumping all the weight forward on to your quads.

Reko
08-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Strength isn't constant. That's why in max effort sessions you work up to a max *FOR THAT DAY* it's not always a PR, and IMHO the longer you train the more it's NOT a PR.

Thats why we have so many different lifts, even ones we haven't done in months. Always a PR then :)

Virtron
08-17-2009, 08:45 AM
First of all, your elbows are pointed straight back which tends to dump everything forward. Then when you come off the box, everything dumps forward. You can actually see the bar itself move forward instead of going straight up. When this happens you can also see the weight transfer to your toes.
Get your elbows down and come straight up off the box. You will have to work with submax weights to get the form down. Also do lots of accessory work for the glutes and hamstrings so they get strong enough to get you off the box without dumping all the weight forward on to your quads.

oh man thanks I knew my elbows shouldnt be like that.