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View Full Version : Hoff's Benching at Pro Am



Rob Luyando
08-23-2009, 08:02 PM
I don't want to be a dick and take something away from a strong kid. But have you guys watched the video of his benching? Is is blatently ****ing obvious that he has something other then a bench shirt under his singlet. How in the hell did the judges not see that? The Por Am is the best Full Meet around sad that they let that **** slide he should have been DQ'd from the meet.

chris mason
08-23-2009, 08:08 PM
Do you have a link Rob?

vdizenzo
08-23-2009, 08:08 PM
He clearly broke the rules. He disrespected himself, his team, and everyone he competed against.

NickAus
08-23-2009, 08:09 PM
Yeah that's not right.

vdizenzo
08-23-2009, 08:10 PM
LAPS1OZqv3s

NickAus
08-23-2009, 08:16 PM
The 3rd bench it almost looks like a 2 board underneath lol.

Travis Bell
08-23-2009, 08:22 PM
I don't want to be a dick and take something away from a strong kid. But have you guys watched the video of his benching? Is is blatently ****ing obvious that he has something other then a bench shirt under his singlet. How in the hell did the judges not see that? The Por Am is the best Full Meet around sad that they let that **** slide he should have been DQ'd from the meet.

Louie and I were sitting right in the front row and we really couldn't see it, although to be honest we weren't looking for it either.

There were so many people around the platform, if you sat in the front row, you couldn't see that clearly.

That said, I really have not a single clue what is in his singlet. I was handling some other people. I've watched the video several times and I am not sure at all.

People are going to flame me for this, but I really think it's his denim shirt bunched together on his belly. There is a little chalk on the spot where the bunch is and it looks like someone may have adjusted it in that place? I don't know.

Had it been an object that was like a foam roll or something else rolled up, stuffed up under his singlet, it'd have been absolutely blatantly obvious. That singlet didn't leave a whole lot to the imagination and the judges had a crystal clear view of the lifter during the bench. The head judge calling the press command would have seen it on the way down when he was 6" away from his chest and had every right to inspect his lifting attire after the lift had he suspected something.

That's my position given the information at hand

robchris
08-23-2009, 08:23 PM
WTF was that under thier??? I do 2-bds too... In the gym!

Barbaccio
08-23-2009, 08:48 PM
I've spoke WAY too early on subjects before so I'm gonna hold back here. I will say it doesn't LOOK good. Even if it's bunched up denim from a shirt adjustment it seems a bit to well placed and gives him an obvious advantage. That said, I'll wait to see what's said or done about it before slamming the guy. If it was done purposefully it's dishonorable and completely disrespects the sport.

bencher8
08-23-2009, 08:52 PM
travis...comeon, I know you train at the same gym and all, but it is altogether obvious there is no way that is his shirt under there. I have been doing this for a while....never in my damn life have I seen a shirt look like that under a singlet....are we gonna call vid angle on this too? some thing is under there, go on outlaws and look at those freeze frames.....the durn thing is sticking up 6" off his belly! I can see the argument about not seeing it from the front row.....but the judge is looking right at the damn thing! Hoff should be ashamed! I cant beleive he would show his face in another meet or gym...for that matter the judges either, those guys should never be allowed near another meet!

PeteTheGreek
08-23-2009, 08:52 PM
The velcro strap on a Karins shirt is attached to the belly portion of the shirt. A tip one of my training partners actually picked up from Dave is to pull the strap as tight as you can. With the strap on tight, or even loose for that matter, there's not enough material in the shirt for it to bunch up like that.

chris mason
08-23-2009, 08:58 PM
Come on now, let's just say for a second it was something (I have NO idea). Guys used to put tennis balls behind their knees... Cheating like that has been going on as long as powerlifting has been around. It doesn't make it right, but some of the judging going on here based upon assumptions is pretty ridiculous.

If there was something I am sure it will be handled appropriately.

Ben Moore
08-23-2009, 09:13 PM
I understand you have to be non-bias in this case Chris, but seriously...that makes Mike Ruggeria's umbilical hernia look like a joke...

slashkills
08-23-2009, 09:25 PM
Ive never used gear nor trained with a person in a shirt so i cant really say that it is or isnt his shirt but, from videos ive seen that definitely doesnt look normal. I hope for him that it was nothing because he is a great lifter.

On a side note, this is probably a stupid question but what fed is the pro am in? I dont really know how meets and feds work.

Brian Hopper
08-23-2009, 09:39 PM
On a side note, this is probably a stupid question but what fed is the pro am in? I dont really know how meets and feds work.

This was the SPF Pro-Am.

KarstenDD
08-23-2009, 09:41 PM
If that's his shirt then I am svelte.

mattdunkin
08-23-2009, 09:50 PM
Un-fu*#ing believable...there is no disputing the fact that there was something under his shirt-look at the freeze-frames on outlaw.I can't believe whoever was handling him either went along with that ***** or didn't knock the hell out of him,and how the hell did the head judge not see that?

slashkills
08-23-2009, 10:24 PM
http://i31.tinypic.com/35hpk6e.jpg

SEOINAGE
08-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Genetically gifted super belly.

NickAus
08-23-2009, 11:17 PM
**** that is obvious.
Sad.

sobrinoc
08-23-2009, 11:19 PM
Na.... I'd say this one is the keeper...

http://i30.tinypic.com/287el4o.jpg

SGT ROCK
08-24-2009, 01:17 AM
travis...comeon, I know you train at the same gym and all, but it is altogether obvious there is no way that is his shirt under there. I have been doing this for a while....never in my damn life have I seen a shirt look like that under a singlet....are we gonna call vid angle on this too? some thing is under there, go on outlaws and look at those freeze frames.....the durn thing is sticking up 6" off his belly! I can see the argument about not seeing it from the front row.....but the judge is looking right at the damn thing! Hoff should be ashamed! I cant beleive he would show his face in another meet or gym...for that matter the judges either, those guys should never be allowed near another meet!

Very well put.

Semper Fi

Travis Bell
08-24-2009, 04:56 AM
travis...comeon, I know you train at the same gym and all, but it is altogether obvious there is no way that is his shirt under there. I have been doing this for a while....never in my damn life have I seen a shirt look like that under a singlet....are we gonna call vid angle on this too? some thing is under there, go on outlaws and look at those freeze frames.....the durn thing is sticking up 6" off his belly! I can see the argument about not seeing it from the front row.....but the judge is looking right at the damn thing! Hoff should be ashamed! I cant beleive he would show his face in another meet or gym...for that matter the judges either, those guys should never be allowed near another meet!

This is a bullcrap post Paul. I stated my opinion and that's it. Don't like it? Don't read it then.

Where did I post anything stupid about camera angle?

Just because I don't jump on the bandwagon and rip a teammate to shreds, you make a stupid post like that attacking me! Unreal.

I already said, I'm not totally sure what's under there, i stated a possiblity. That's it and that's all I'm going to state until I can get more information. It hasn't even been 24hrs after the meet! Just take a chill and lets see what Jesse Rodgers says

Ryano
08-24-2009, 05:28 AM
It's absolutely shameful. Hoff and his helpers should be banned from competing in any federation for life. I know that won't happen, but it should. There's a good photoshopped freezeframe of it on Outlaw's that has Ray Charles inserted as the head judge. Take a peek at it for a good laugh.

NASAKYCHAIRMAN
08-24-2009, 07:28 AM
The head judge and the side judges gave him the white light. Also, David Hoff won't get banned from other federations because hasn't broken any rules in other federations. So, as long as he buys a membership card, he should be allowed to compete.

If David Hoff did use something illegal underneath his singlet, he will have to look in the mirror and deal with this everyday. The Powerlifting Community probably won't let him forget this major incident because it hurts the credibility of the sport,etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Beverly McD.
08-24-2009, 08:07 AM
Hopefully there is more to this that we aren't aware of yet.
Usually, when people try to cheat, they're at least a little sneaky about it. The fact that this is so "in your face" makes me think there may be more to this story than is obvious.

Reko
08-24-2009, 08:18 AM
The head judge and the side judges gave him the white light. Also, David Hoff won't get banned from other federations because hasn't broken any rules in other federations. So, as long as he buys a membership card, he should be allowed to compete.

If David Hoff did use something illegal underneath his singlet, he will have to look in the mirror and deal with this everyday. The Powerlifting Community probably won't let him forget this major incident because it hurts the credibility of the sport,etc.

Just my 2 cents.

This is probably the most accurate statement in this thread.

bencher8
08-24-2009, 08:26 AM
Im not attacking you travis, you stated you really think its his shirt bunched up under there....you knew you were gonna get **** for it, cause its obvious. You wanna believe thats his shirt...thats cool with me, go ahead and live in that fantasy world...

he cheated and still got his ass handed to him...

Travis Bell
08-24-2009, 08:51 AM
Im not attacking you travis, you stated you really think its his shirt bunched up under there....you knew you were gonna get **** for it, cause its obvious. You wanna believe thats his shirt...thats cool with me, go ahead and live in that fantasy world...

he cheated and still got his ass handed to him...

I said that's a possiblity. Yes you are attacking me Paul. Your sarcastic posts don't leave a whole lot of room for interpretation on that one.

Either way, this is the internet and that is a freedom, even if I didn't expect something like that from you.

I'm done in this thread until I've finished my discussions with two other people who will make a decision, and that's the decision I will stand by.

bencher8
08-24-2009, 10:07 AM
thats how bad this is travis, if I am pissed off about it, its gotta be BS...I dont just pop off for any reason...

If you think my posts on here are bad, you should hear the opinion of some highly respected lifters I have talked to about it....

It doesnt matter IMO what Jesse has to say about it, he didnt put the judges in there, he isnt the meet director, he didnt get the venue, its not his meet...all it is his sanction..

Hoff and Harrington should at least be gone from the gym....they both knew about it, there is no way to let them stay and keep any credibility. The judges should be banned...aand Hoff should have the total stripped. Just my opinion...

gopostal42
08-24-2009, 10:17 AM
Hopefully there is more to this that we aren't aware of yet.
Usually, when people try to cheat, they're at least a little sneaky about it. The fact that this is so "in your face" makes me think there may be more to this story than is obvious.

you'd be surprised how there's nothing more to it than what everyone thinks.

Beefcaker
08-24-2009, 11:07 AM
Vid was removed.

There must be more to this story. dubya tee eff?

Barbaccio
08-24-2009, 11:15 AM
I've never seen anyone take so much heat from other high level lifters. I'm still waiting on an explanation but I have a feeling this isn't going to turn out well. I can't think of anything that could have happened with his shirt to make it look like that.

Pete22
08-24-2009, 11:37 AM
End well this will not. Look at the pics! Lol... how is this even being disputed or defended? How the judges even let him get the attempt in is beyond me.

vdizenzo
08-24-2009, 01:10 PM
I think Travis wants to believe the best possiblity over the worst. I would bet my house that if in fact Hoff did do something dishonest, Travis had no idea. Let's let him reserve his judgement for now. It is afterall a teammate. If I were Travis, I'd want to speak to him before saying anything else also.

This is about Hoff. I don't want to see us attack each other here. Let's please keep it civil or I will lock the thread. Thanks.

evilxxx
08-24-2009, 01:16 PM
That is so obvious its not even funny. I don't even have respect for anyone that would even try to defend this . This guy need to join the Army or the Marines so he can learn some integrity...

jtteg_x
08-24-2009, 02:00 PM
maybe its only few feds but aren't the judges suppose to check the lifter for gear violation rules after the lift? or is that only after a WR lift is set? I used to see this a lot when I watched videos off PLwatch of Andy Bolton, Ed Coan, etc.

KarlMarx
08-24-2009, 02:04 PM
I think Travis wants to believe the best possiblity over the worst. I would bet my house that if in fact Hoff did do something dishonest, Travis had no idea. Let's let him reserve his judgement for now. It is afterall a teammate. If I were Travis, I'd want to speak to him before saying anything else also.

This is about Hoff. I don't want to see us attack each other here. Let's please keep it civil or I will lock the thread. Thanks.


True. One definitely has to give the benefit of ANY doubt to one's team. That makes Travis loyal and not 'blind' by my book. Sometimes photos can look odd and I would give my team mate at least the chance to speak first.

Beverly McD.
08-24-2009, 02:06 PM
APF/WPC checks world records. Not sure about the rest. Someone walking up to the platform like this would be stopped, deemed as an intentional intent to cheat, and disqualified from the meet.

Beverly McD.
08-24-2009, 02:06 PM
True. One definitely has to give the benefit of ANY doubt to one's team. That makes Travis loyal and not 'blind' by my book. Sometimes photos can look odd and I would give my team mate at least the chance to speak first.

Absolutely.

douglasoh5
08-24-2009, 02:19 PM
Hey Travis just talk to nutter....

Lones Green
08-24-2009, 04:15 PM
The attacks on here are not necessary guys. This is the internet.

I'm not saying if I think he did or did not do something illegal, but I will say I was sitting on the very front row when he was benching, and I did not notice anything abnormal in his singlet. Not saying there wasn't, just saying from my point of view, it was not noticeable.

His belly is big, perfect for benching, and I did mention something to Travis who was sitting next to me at the time how perfect he is built for benching.

I'll wait to hear from Jesse. Just keep it civilized guys, its really not that big of a deal. People cheat in sports and in every day life 24/7. If you want to get pissed about cheating, there are plenty of other things that matter a lot more than what a kid put in his singlet at a powerlifting meet.

NickAus
08-24-2009, 04:20 PM
The head judge and the side judges gave him the white light. Also, David Hoff won't get banned from other federations because hasn't broken any rules in other federations. So, as long as he buys a membership card, he should be allowed to compete.

If David Hoff did use something illegal underneath his singlet, he will have to look in the mirror and deal with this everyday. The Powerlifting Community probably won't let him forget this major incident because it hurts the credibility of the sport,etc.

Just my 2 cents.

That's why people are pissed off, it hurts the credibility of the sport and that sucks!

Jesse Hernandez
08-24-2009, 04:26 PM
This is disgusting.

slashkills
08-24-2009, 04:32 PM
The attacks on here are not necessary guys. This is the internet.

I'm not saying if I think he did or did not do something illegal, but I will say I was sitting on the very front row when he was benching, and I did not notice anything abnormal in his singlet. Not saying there wasn't, just saying from my point of view, it was not noticeable.

His belly is big, perfect for benching, and I did mention something to Travis who was sitting next to me at the time how perfect he is built for benching.

I'll wait to hear from Jesse. Just keep it civilized guys, its really not that big of a deal. People cheat in sports and in every day life 24/7. If you want to get pissed about cheating, there are plenty of other things that matter a lot more than what a kid put in his singlet at a powerlifting meet.


Agreed. there is a vid on powerliftingwatch.com that has a video from the front row. What was allegedly in his shirt was not visible from that angle.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 06:55 PM
In the end, nothing can be proven. If he did something, he was not caught at the meet. He will be under great scrutiny in whatever meet he next competes. Everything else is conjecture.

sayagain
08-24-2009, 07:07 PM
In the end, nothing can be proven. If he did something, he was not caught at the meet. He will be under great scrutiny in whatever meet he next competes. Everything else is conjecture.

Exactly. The internet debate will continue, just as with high squats, non-locked out benches, etc. I agree it looks very suspicious from the video and pictures, but it passed at the meet. I'm sure he will be looked at very closely in the future.

bencher8
08-24-2009, 07:47 PM
so just to hell with it right? no consequences, he got away with it....nothing to see here folks, move on now lol

If I were wenning I would be knocking on his door wanting my 500$....

sayagain
08-24-2009, 07:51 PM
I guess we'll see in the next few days what happens with it, but I really don't see how anything can be proven, unless Hoff actually comes out and admits that he broke the rules. Apparently nobody at the meet noticed anything.

dbc3po
08-24-2009, 07:55 PM
Either way this just doesent look good. I was reading through some of the rubbish on one of the forums and a post was made about this before the video was posted up. I dont know what the hell it was(belly, excess shirt, 2 board, foam roller ) but either way it is bringing allot of negative attention to the sport and to one meet that is generally judged very tight.

BTW does Dave still post here? I know he did a few times a while back.

Pete22
08-24-2009, 07:57 PM
Just keep it civilized guys, its really not that big of a deal. People cheat in sports and in every day life 24/7. If you want to get pissed about cheating, there are plenty of other things that matter a lot more than what a kid put in his singlet at a powerlifting meet.

It may not be a big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but isn't this the Powerlifting section of a weightlifting website? This is the place to talk about this and share our thoughts and opinions. People are getting pissed about it because where is the integrity?

People cheat in sports and life, but does that make it right? I'm sure the guys he beat out aren't taking it so lightly.

NickAus
08-24-2009, 07:58 PM
It may not be a big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but isn't this the Powerlifting section of a weightlifting website? This is the place to talk about this and share our thoughts and opinions. People are getting pissed about it because where is the integrity?

People cheat in sports and life, but does that make it right? I'm sure the guys he beat out aren't taking it so lightly.

I'm with you Pete.

Jonah
08-24-2009, 07:59 PM
I guess we'll see in the next few days what happens with it, but I really don't see how anything can be proven, unless Hoff actually comes out and admits that he broke the rules. Apparently nobody at the meet noticed anything.


Maybe not. But I wouldn't expect to ever be trusted again by any judge at a meet.

In the meantime the worst suspicions have been confirmed :hello:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5607/benchshirtblowoutbloope.jpg

Reko
08-24-2009, 08:09 PM
Maybe not. But I wouldn't expect to ever be trusted again by any judge at a meet.

In the meantime the worst suspicions have been confirmed :hello:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5607/benchshirtblowoutbloope.jpg

HAHAHAHA nice!

chris mason
08-24-2009, 08:56 PM
so just to hell with it right? no consequences, he got away with it....nothing to see here folks, move on now lol

If I were wenning I would be knocking on his door wanting my 500$....

I do understand someone like Matt being upset as he may have lost money, but again, you DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. You can't prove it, so why get overly freaked about it? I can tell you 100% if he did do anything he won't ever do it again as he will be watched like a hawk in future meets by competitors and judges alike.

Give him the benefit of the doubt and move on.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 09:05 PM
Oh, and for all of the judgmental freaks who are crying foul over integrity etc., if you have never cheated at ANYTHING (a test in school etc.) then speak, the rest of you should STFU.

This goes along the lines of, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."

evilxxx
08-24-2009, 09:20 PM
I know were are all upset about this because its very obvious by that picture that there is something under that singlet...BUT...where are the SPF rules? (I cant find them) Is there anything against stuffing foreign objects under your singlet or bench shirt for the bench press? I am trying to lok at this the way a lawyer would look at a criminal case...is the
video thats still on powerlifting watch from his last attempt? Im just curious because i found one from the same angle on you tube from when he was 19 and the ROM looks the same.

Jesse Hernandez
08-24-2009, 09:39 PM
Oh, and for all of the judgmental freaks who are crying foul over integrity etc., if you have never cheated at ANYTHING (a test in school etc.) then speak, the rest of you should STFU.

This goes along the lines of, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..."

Oh come on Chris Mason..... get real. All your posts over this topic are bull****.


Stop trying to take the heat off this kid.... hes 21, its clear he made a mistake we all have, did they catch him red handed? **** no, but he was caught on video, it may not be a crime, but in the real world video can land you in jail. Granted this violation wont put him behind bars, but theres nothing YOU or any of his gym buddies can say to make it right. So stop trying to save face for this kid. Its only hurting him, the best thing he can do is to admit his mistake and move on. Like a real man.


I cant believe some of these posts.... a bunched up shirt...wtf get real....
And as for your "stfu" comment....... yea lets do that, I mean wars werent fought over the bill of rights were they?



Why cant people KEEP IT REAL? I keep it real, and I dont give a **** what you think.:thumbup:

NickAus
08-24-2009, 10:02 PM
You see people (myself included) get angry with this type of **** because it can have a negative effect on OUR sport.
People will see that **** and will laugh and think powerlifting is a joke after all the hard work put in, all the injuries and money spent by lifters.
We are meant to be trying to get the sport to grow not damaging it.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 10:29 PM
Oh come on Chris Mason..... get real. All your posts over this topic are bull****.


Stop trying to take the heat off this kid.... hes 21, its clear he made a mistake we all have, did they catch him red handed? **** no, but he was caught on video, it may not be a crime, but in the real world video can land you in jail. Granted this violation wont put him behind bars, but theres nothing YOU or any of his gym buddies can say to make it right. So stop trying to save face for this kid. Its only hurting him, the best thing he can do is to admit his mistake and move on. Like a real man.


I cant believe some of these posts.... a bunched up shirt...wtf get real....
And as for your "stfu" comment....... yea lets do that, I mean wars werent fought over the bill of rights were they?



Why cant people KEEP IT REAL? I keep it real, and I dont give a **** what you think.:thumbup:

Your call big boy. I'll keep it real. Post elsewhere.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 10:35 PM
You see people (myself included) get angry with this type of **** because it can have a negative effect on OUR sport.
People will see that **** and will laugh and think powerlifting is a joke after all the hard work put in, all the injuries and money spent by lifters.
We are meant to be trying to get the sport to grow not damaging it.



If you love your sport so much then there is LOT more you could be doing for it than worrying what one competitor MAY have done in a meet...

chris mason
08-24-2009, 10:41 PM
Oh, and one more thing. I don't know Hoff. I may have met him, I am not sure. I am just trying to make a point. All of the feigned outrage.

NO ONE on this site knows for sure what happened. THAT is the point. If you want to express your opinion in a reasonable, civil fashion that is cool. If not, don't bother posting. That is how we run this site. If you want to act like an idiot then go to another forum.

NickAus
08-24-2009, 10:41 PM
If you love your sport so much then there is LOT more you could be doing for it than worrying what one competitor MAY have done in a meet...

It is true that I could do more and I will.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 10:46 PM
It is true that I could do more and I will.

Fair enough.

I hope you see my point? This guy is being crucified for something he may not have done. I agree, it sure looks like he did something, but we don't know for sure. IF he did it, he won't ever get away with it again. He hasn't ruined the sport nor his ability to be a good, competitive lifter. IF he did anything, he made a dumb mistake and I am sure will learn from it.

I think Rob Luyando's position was sound. IF he did anything he should have been caught at the meet and disqualified. He didn't, or wasn't, so we should all just move on.

siuecougar
08-24-2009, 10:47 PM
You see people (myself included) get angry with this type of **** because it can have a negative effect on OUR sport.
People will see that **** and will laugh and think powerlifting is a joke after all the hard work put in, all the injuries and money spent by lifters.
We are meant to be trying to get the sport to grow not damaging it.

well.... if someone who has no knowledge of powerlifting sees this, i'm not too sure they'd know any different.... i could understand the powerlifting community finding this to be outrageous and embarrassing for the sport. but someone who isn't into the sport, i don't think they'd think of this sport as a joke. they'd just see someone who possibly cheated. same thing as a corked bat in baseball. i hate baseball, but with that, all i see is a cheater. not the sport being a joke.

chris mason
08-24-2009, 10:47 PM
well.... if someone who has no knowledge of powerlifting sees this, i'm not too sure they'd know any different.... i could understand the powerlifting community finding this to be outrageous and embarrassing for the sport. but someone who isn't into the sport, i don't think they'd think of this sport as a joke. they'd just see someone who possibly cheated. same thing as a corked bat in baseball. i hate baseball, but with that, all i see is a cheater. not the sport being a joke.

Good point.

siuecougar
08-24-2009, 10:50 PM
haha thank you, Mr. Mason.

NickAus
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
well.... if someone who has no knowledge of powerlifting sees this, i'm not too sure they'd know any different.... i could understand the powerlifting community finding this to be outrageous and embarrassing for the sport. but someone who isn't into the sport, i don't think they'd think of this sport as a joke. they'd just see someone who possibly cheated. same thing as a corked bat in baseball. i hate baseball, but with that, all i see is a cheater. not the sport being a joke.

We will have to disagree on this which is cool but I can tell you for certain that ANYONE would see something was up.

siuecougar
08-24-2009, 11:06 PM
We will have to disagree on this which is cool but I can tell you for certain that ANYONE would see something was up.

i will agree with you on that. i won't bash the man, though. i prolly couldn't do what he did with 6 boards under a singlet.

JK1
08-24-2009, 11:14 PM
Fair enough.

I hope you see my point? This guy is being crucified for something he may not have done. I agree, it sure looks like he did something, but we don't know for sure. IF he did it, he won't ever get away with it again. He hasn't ruined the sport nor his ability to be a good, competitive lifter. IF he did anything, he made a dumb mistake and I am sure will learn from it.

I think Rob Luyando's position was sound. IF he did anything he should have been caught at the meet and disqualified. He didn't, or wasn't, so we should all just move on.


The thing that bugs the **** out of me about all of this is that the SPF as a federation is a GREAT lifter oriented federation. I really saw this meet as that fed stepping up into the big time head on so to speak. There have been alot of people working very, very hard for a big meet to happen. Now theres this crap going on.

I have watched the videos again and again. I honestly cant tell. The still photos look really damned suspicious, but you'd think someone would have said something on Sunday, not the blow up we have today. Unfortunately now its past. Its too late in my opinion, unless there is DEFINITIVE PROOF--ie Hoff admits to cheating or a lifter comes forward and says they saw the shirt being stuffed, not the anonymous crap on PLWatch, but someone stating their name and what they saw, its not going to be solved. I dont' think its right to strip prize money in a situation like this without a formal complaint and definitive proof, no matter what the online bull**** says.

And the bull**** is going to continue to go wild I'm afraid.

JasonLift
08-25-2009, 05:14 AM
I will probably get flamed for this but looking closely at the pictures and the way the shadows fall I could see how angle and lighting could be playing a role in making this look far worse than it was. Its funny how so far I haven't heard from anyone who was there seeing anything live at the lift, only people after the fact reviewing one tape, (the other doesn't show anything after he gets up).

Ryano
08-25-2009, 05:34 AM
I disagree with the statements insinuating that he didn't get caught at the meet so he got away with it. If you rob a bank, you're not free as soon as you leave the bank! As for no evidence, what about the photo's? That's evidence enough for me. Since there is money involved, he obtained that money due to a fraud, which is illegal in every state. In IL it's called "Theft by Deception". I doubt the local States Attorney would prosecute it, but he should be charged anyway.

Another thing. If there was a legitimite reason for the "bulge" why hasn't Hoff or Harrington gotten on any forum to defend themselves and explain it? More evidence of deception. It's just like fleeing. Innocent people don't run.

Rob Luyando
08-25-2009, 06:12 AM
OK I started this post and I will trhrow in my 2 cents after reading all three pages of this topic. And I offend anyone I don't care becuase I'm Rob ****king Luyando and I know bench shirts and benching just about as good as anyone in the game!

The Pro-Am is the new Superbowl of Powerlifitng meets. The judges should all be banned for letting this **** fly! I have worn just about every material out there and have never seen a shirt bunched up that much. There is no way in hell that that huge protruding object is human or part of his bench shirt. Any I would bet the life of every single one of my family and freinds life on it.

Integrity goes a long way! Hoff proved he has none with his actions. He pushed it to far with his actions and its bull****. He got away with it becuase the three blind mice were judging. Hoff only ****ed two other lifters from getting the payday he deserved.

I have never been a fan of internet judging but this one steals the cake.

Should Hoff be banned from the sport or the gym? Not for me to decide but the Federation head should be paying him a visit to collect the prize money that he stole from two deserving lifters.

This just put another black mark on multy ply lifting. I am sure the majority of his team mates had no idea what he was doing but I am just glad he doesn't train with me becuase I would be wore out from riding his ass day in and day out. Total Bull****!

sobrinoc
08-25-2009, 06:38 AM
Well the video was reposted by someone... judge for yourself.

While I find the range of motion IS shorter in the last bench press, it is hard to see if there is something in the shirt. What I mean is that the video is not as clear as the photos so take away what you will from that.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k2PuQy1_cFg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k2PuQy1_cFg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Ryano
08-25-2009, 07:05 AM
Jesse Rodgers has suspended Hoff and DQ'd him from the meet. Hoff has to repay the $$ and Matt Wenning is now the 2nd place finisher. Congrats to Jesse for this decision.

Chris Smith
08-25-2009, 07:12 AM
Looks like Jesse Rogers talked to Lou and Mike Ferguson, as he made a post on PL Watch this morning. It says Hoff is suspended from the SPF and the Pro-Am for a year, must pay back the cash, and if he dont, then he is banned until he does, and his lifts do not count. I dont know what transpired in the talks between everyone yesterday, but looks like this is the outcome of it. Personally, I dont know how someone could show up at a meet or the gym and face fellow lifters, teammates, ever again, after doing this.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 07:18 AM
I spent most of the afternoon yesterday on the phone with Jesse, Louie and some other people regarding this issue.

As I said, I would not post on this issue until a decision had been reached. One that made a difference, not just arguing about it on a internet forum.

The decision that has been made is that Dave will be DQ'd from the ProAm and his lifts nullified. Matt Wenning will be moved into second place. Hoff will return the money and the money will be given to Wenning. Dave will be suspended from the ProAm for a year, or if he does not return the money, he'll be suspended until he does.

There may be further changes, but this is all I feel is anyone on the internet's business at this time.

To those of you who ripped on me for waiting to dig a little and find some information, I hope in the future you won't be so rash. Paul, your comments towards me I found pretty dissapointing. This stuff takes at least a day for all of us to discuss this in person. We cannot act alone, but some will never understand that.

However much of a black mark this has been on the ProAm, it is more dissapointing that this event clouded the events that were actually the best lifting. Such as Frankle's total or Hoss' squats. There was a lot of exciting lifting going on, but this event ruined this year. It sucks. But it won't happen again.

Integrity isn't what happens (within reason) rather its how a person responds to said situations and in this situation I believe the ProAm has maintained it's integrity.

Brad08
08-25-2009, 07:59 AM
The decision that has been made is that Dave will be DQ'd from the ProAm and his lifts nullified. Matt Wenning will be moved into second place. Hoff will return the money and the money will be given to Wenning. Dave will be suspended from the ProAm for a year, or if he does not return the money, he'll be suspended until he does.



The huge white elephant in the room is HOW IN THE HELL did three Judges at a huge meet like the Pro-Am completely fail to catch this violation?

IMHO, that larger issue does more damage to the sport than anything Hoff could do.

Until judging is reliable across the board, the sport will continue to suffer.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 08:08 AM
The huge white elephant in the room is HOW IN THE HELL did three Judges at a huge meet like the Pro-Am completely fail to catch this violation?

IMHO, that larger issue does more damage to the sport than anything Hoff could do.

Until judging is reliable across the board, the sport will continue to suffer.

Some will never be satisfied I suppose LOL

I honestly do not know. Louie and I were sitting right there in the front row, saw him walk up and everything and didn't notice squat.

I cannot speak for the judges. I wasn't sitting in there chair, but there were at least 15 people who were as close as the judges were and they didn't see a darn thing. Crap happens. It's been dealt with and there will be more to come. So just be patient and allow this a little time to develop

Beverly McD.
08-25-2009, 08:25 AM
Travis, this was a tricky situation for any federation, and I think the governing body of the SPF took quick action and did very well with it.

As for it being a discredit to multi-ply lifters/feds, I'm not buying it. Those that resent multi-py lifters will find something bad to say about them regardless of the situation.

KarlMarx
08-25-2009, 08:35 AM
I spent most of the afternoon yesterday on the phone with Jesse, Louie and some other people regarding this issue.

As I said, I would not post on this issue until a decision had been reached. One that made a difference, not just arguing about it on a internet forum.

The decision that has been made is that Dave will be DQ'd from the ProAm and his lifts nullified. Matt Wenning will be moved into second place. Hoff will return the money and the money will be given to Wenning. Dave will be suspended from the ProAm for a year, or if he does not return the money, he'll be suspended until he does.

Obviously my perspective has changed, but that was not until discussing this with people who actually witnessed these actions as well as comming into some incontrovertible evidence. I was greatly dissapointed in those who saw what happened and did not speak up. Integrity would call for them to have spoken up during the meet, not after, but hopefully we can all learn from this situation and never ever let this happen again. Cheating in a meet has no place.

There may be further changes, but this is all I feel is anyone on the internet's business at this time.

To those of you who ripped on me for waiting to dig a little and find some information, I hope in the future you won't be so rash. Paul, your comments towards me I found pretty dissapointing. This stuff takes at least a day for all of us to discuss this in person. We cannot act alone, but some will never understand that.

However much of a black mark this has been on the ProAm, it is more dissapointing that this event clouded the events that were actually the best lifting. Such as Frankle's total or Hoss' squats. There was a lot of exciting lifting going on, but this event ruined this year. It sucks. But it won't happen again.

Integrity isn't what happens (within reason) rather its how a person responds to said situations and in this situation I believe the ProAm has maintained it's integrity.

Just for one, I think waiting a day before deciding against your teammate was not just defensible but the right thing to do. It was unlikely to have a good explanation (and it didn't) but it is not at all too much to ask to give a day or two (or even a couple weeks) for the thing to sort out before jumping on him.

It must suck having to come in and say things like this about friends and team mates. Its hard to be sorry for those involved but not hard to feel sorry for people who got jacked by this like you Travis. Oh well...

sayagain
08-25-2009, 08:42 AM
Thanks for posting this Travis. Hopefully it will clear things up and be a move in the right direction for putting this behind us. It is sad how much this has tainted all of the great performances of the past weekend.

chris mason
08-25-2009, 08:49 AM
Well, a resolution to the situation. Good.

Beverly McD.
08-25-2009, 08:52 AM
Just my perspective, but I don't see the others lifters performance as being tainted. I also don't feel sympathy for Travis, Louie, etc. I don't feel like they need it. This kids actions were HIS actions. He's a full grown, certified adult. He is accountable. In my mind at least, his actions have no bearing on anyone else involved in lifting at or running this meet.

sayagain
08-25-2009, 08:59 AM
Maybe tainted was the wrong word. What I meant was that it is sad that everyone is forgetting about some of the great lifts that happened while they endlessly debate the mysterious bulge under Hoff's shirt. We should be talking about Frankl's total, Hoss's squat, and Vogelpohl's incredible bench ;)

Beverly McD.
08-25-2009, 09:05 AM
Maybe tainted was the wrong word. What I meant was that it is sad that everyone is forgetting about some of the great lifts that happened while they endlessly debate the mysterious bulge under Hoff's shirt. We should be talking about Frankl's total, Hoss's squat, and Vogelpohl's incredible bench ;)

Big thumbs up on that sayagain.:)

Those guys worked their tails off, they deserve some "attaboys":thumbup:

Brian C
08-25-2009, 09:14 AM
I agree that its total bull that anyone would lash out on someone like Travis for waiting to find the truth before throwing a teamate under the bus. If something legit DID come out of this, then how could you face Hoff when you basically made a statement that your teamship as well as your friendship meant nothing to automatically find him guilty. Sometimes there is a reason, but sometimes theres not. As we now know, something was afoot, and now its Hoff that has to face judgement. But I commend Travis and the rest of their team for at least sticking it out with him until the final judgement was made. I coming from a career thats based around a brotherhood and sticking with each other in times of hardships as such. A career where calling out your brothers prematurely will only bring turmoil. Theres a lot of young kids on this forum and others with no real life experience and how to deal with certain situations properly. Someday they may understand.

Ben Moore
08-25-2009, 09:18 AM
So now for the serious questions...what was under his shirt???

evilxxx
08-25-2009, 09:30 AM
Just my perspective, but I don't see the others lifters performance as being tainted. I also don't feel sympathy for Travis, Louie, etc. I don't feel like they need it. This kids actions were HIS actions. He's a full grown, certified adult. He is accountable. In my mind at least, his actions have no bearing on anyone else involved in lifting at or running this meet.

:clap::thumbup:

bencher8
08-25-2009, 09:57 AM
ok, it was cheating, the consequences were dealt out. I commend jesse, lou, mike, and everyone there who made the right decision. Now its just up to Hoff to be able to earn trust back, he has to look in the mirror and deal with it...


as far as me attacking you travis, I dont feel like I did that. I just dont see the big attack I made. I didnt call you names, didnt threaten to beat you up, I didnt agree with your stated position of it maybe being a bench shirt bunched up. I found it rediculous that ANYONE could look at the vidoe or pics and come up with anything other than cheating. I called it like I seen it.....you took that as an attack on you...it was an attack on Hoff maybe, and anyone who stood up for it(even early on) was eventually going to be found wrong. I wasnt really even being sarcastic, except in maybe the vid angle comment(but realize I just read a comment sayign they shot that angle on purpose to prove that their could be angles involved). Sarcasm is not an attack BTW..

I never said that you shouldnt wait till you found out more information to make a decision, I never said you should come out and throw a teammate under the bus...all I did was disagree with your first statement that it was a shirt bunched up....

dbc3po
08-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Travis people can say what they want about you but you handled this whole deal the way a teamate should. I feel bad this has put a cloud of controversy over this meet and WestSide. I am going to send you a pm please respond when you get a chance.

bencher8
08-25-2009, 10:01 AM
travis...comeon, I know you train at the same gym and all, but it is altogether obvious there is no way that is his shirt under there. I have been doing this for a while....never in my damn life have I seen a shirt look like that under a singlet....are we gonna call vid angle on this too? some thing is under there, go on outlaws and look at those freeze frames.....the durn thing is sticking up 6" off his belly! I can see the argument about not seeing it from the front row.....but the judge is looking right at the damn thing! Hoff should be ashamed! I cant beleive he would show his face in another meet or gym...for that matter the judges either, those guys should never be allowed near another meet!

I went and reread the post and I just dont see the attack...the only thing I attack is Hoff and the judges...should have included the handlers there as well. I will give you the vid angle thing...

siuecougar
08-25-2009, 10:38 AM
yeah.... if you look at his belt, too. you can kinda tell there's somethin' under it.

vdizenzo
08-25-2009, 10:40 AM
Alright, we all have the same information now and we all seem to be on the same boat. I think everyone should move on. If you're bored and need something to post about go say nice things about my 605 RAW!

Seriously, we are all in this together. I think everything that needs to be said has been said. Let's move on.

shortguy
08-25-2009, 11:39 AM
that 605 raw was nice!

Ryano
08-25-2009, 11:53 AM
And now we have a new name for shirted board presses...."Hoff presses". LOL

gopostal42
08-25-2009, 01:09 PM
So now for the serious questions...what was under his shirt???

APT Convict knee wraps

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 01:37 PM
APT Convict knee wraps

Did you see the APT convict knee wraps stuck under his singlet with your own eyes?

gopostal42
08-25-2009, 03:17 PM
Did you see the APT convict knee wraps stuck under his singlet with your own eyes?

i didn't see anything put under his singlet, it was under his shirt. didn't want to say anything about it but i guess it doesn't matter now that the rulings have already been made. i didn't have the best angle at what i'm speaking about as it was far away but about a minute later there were a billion jokes about how awkwardly huge his belly was. it didn't dawn on me til i saw video of it because i missed all his benches in person. thats all i really care to say about it.

Rob Luyando
08-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Theye weren't APT wraps they were inzer wraps that were taken out of Brian Carrolls bag.

And just one more thing. I love being right. Now will one of the moderatoers lock this subject from further abuse before any more panties get ruffled.

gopostal42
08-25-2009, 03:24 PM
Theye weren't APT wraps they were inzer wraps that were taken out of Brian Carrolls bag.

And just one more thing. I love being right. Now will one of the moderatoers lock this subject from further abuse before any more panties get ruffled.

that would make sense also

ACaslow
08-25-2009, 03:37 PM
The huge white elephant in the room is HOW IN THE HELL did three Judges at a huge meet like the Pro-Am completely fail to catch this violation?

IMHO, that larger issue does more damage to the sport than anything Hoff could do.

Until judging is reliable across the board, the sport will continue to suffer.

I wasn't going to comment, but It's really pissing me off about the judges being more to blame for not catching this....

Personally, I think that's chicken **** for anyone to say who wasn't there. First of all, this meet is chaotic, is that an excuse no. But a judges chair does not come with babysitting men. He's 21 years old and that's a man. I don't think in this sport a judge or anyone for that nature to ever need to start inspecting a MAN from head to toe to make sure he is not in violation of the rulebook.

Noone saw it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you saw it because it's painted all over the internet in videos and pictures.

Again, I think it's chicken **** to offer fault to someone else when you have no f'n place judge them from the couch and computer screen.....

Next time you see Russ Barlow, John Bott please let them know you think they are just as much at fault for not babysitting a man enough!

Brad08
08-25-2009, 04:00 PM
Next time you see Russ Barlow, John Bott please let them know you think they are just as much at fault for not babysitting a man enough!

Babysitting?? No. But enforcing the rules is precisely what judges do. They are not disinterested observers. If an equipment check would ensure compliance with the federation's rules, and thereby ensure the continued integrity of the sport, it might be a good idea.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:00 PM
i didn't see anything put under his singlet, it was under his shirt. didn't want to say anything about it but i guess it doesn't matter now that the rulings have already been made. i didn't have the best angle at what i'm speaking about as it was far away but about a minute later there were a billion jokes about how awkwardly huge his belly was. it didn't dawn on me til i saw video of it because i missed all his benches in person. thats all i really care to say about it.

Amazing. Another person who says they saw it but didn't say anything at the meet, but when everyone gets home and is safe they want to say they saw it?

I just don't understand why that is.

I'm not saying you're wrong, what I am saying is that you should have stepped up and said something. You could have said it to me, Lou, any one of the judges, or at least one of the other guys competing who would have had the balls to step up and say something.

To come out with it now because it's "safe" doesn't say a whole lot for your position.

I would have been the first person to investigate it had you come and talked to me personally if you didn't want to confront them yourself.

Brad08
08-25-2009, 04:01 PM
I agree that it's strange for nobody to point it out at the meet, however, there are often cases where eyewitnesses to an event won't say anything at the time (perhaps b/c nobody else is?), but when they have time to think it over, they realize just what they saw, and then report it.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:02 PM
And no, for the time being this topic doesn't really need to be locked. I just don't really see the need for it to be.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:03 PM
I agree that it's strange for nobody to point it out at the meet, however, there are often cases where eyewitnesses to an event won't say anything at the time (perhaps b/c nobody else is?), but when they have time to think it over, they realize just what they saw, and then report it.

C'mon Brad, you're at a meet and you see a guy shoving some knee wraps down another guys bench shirt. You really think you're going to sit there and consider it before posting about it on the internet a few days later?

Ryano
08-25-2009, 04:04 PM
Has Hoff ever commented on this to anyone? I was just wondering if he ever admitted it. After all this controversy he should at least apologize to Jesse and Louie

ACaslow
08-25-2009, 04:05 PM
Babysitting?? No. But enforcing the rules is precisely what judges do. They are not disinterested observers. If an equipment check would ensure compliance with the federation's rules, and thereby ensure the continued integrity of the sport, it might be a good idea.

I do see your point, and I do feel equipment checks are a great idea. But, on the platform to catch something like what just happened and blame the judges for that? I just find that a bit much in terms of what your asking from them. That's just me though, I just find that to be more realistic of what's going on in their minds which is certainly not looking for knee wraps under their shirt. It's a tough call really, I can guarantee you this though, every judge here on out will have an eye out for this almost every time. I also, don't think anyone will be stupid enough to ever try this again for some time.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:06 PM
It's a tough call really, I can guarantee you this though, every judge here on out will have an eye out for this almost every time. I also, don't think anyone will be stupid enough to ever try this again for some time.

Agreed

slashkills
08-25-2009, 04:08 PM
C'mon Brad, you're at a meet and you see a guy shoving some knee wraps down another guys bench shirt. You really think you're going to sit there and consider it before posting about it on the internet a few days later?

I think i wouldnt say anything. Im not saying thats the right thing to do but, i dont want to be the one to cause problems/disruptions at a meet. I can see why people didnt say anything. Im also curious if hoff made any comments since the incident.

ACaslow
08-25-2009, 04:10 PM
Agreed

I would have commented on your dealings with the situation but felt you handled that just fine, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about your involvement. I think you did your part for westside. You will have to keep us updated though on Westside's stance for this, might be stiff to say it's part of our business but at the same time it would be great to hear the stance of westside and why? This will help in understanding how team such as westside approach situation like this, for future references.

Brad08
08-25-2009, 04:11 PM
But, on the platform to catch something like what just happened and blame the judges for that?

I wasn't trying to blame the judges b/c ultimately the fault is with the lifter who intentionally violated a rule in order to gain an unfair advantage, but I was just trying to make the general, bigger point that the quality of judging is very, very important to a sport that relies on subjective calls. If a ball goes through a hoop, there's no ambiguity. It's good. But calling a powerlifting meet is like calling balls and strikes at a baseball game. There's room to disagree. And if the umps are making terrible, biased calls, the whole sport goes down the ****ter. The same thing with powerlifting. If judges are saying "good lift" to stuff that shouldn't pass, it hurts the sport.

But I agree completely that a Judge would be completely caught off guard by someone stuffing knee wraps under their shirt. Nobody here could believe it either! Stranger things have happened I guess but this sure is one of the strangest!

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:17 PM
I think i wouldnt say anything. Im not saying thats the right thing to do but, i dont want to be the one to cause problems/disruptions at a meet. I can see why people didnt say anything. Im also curious if hoff made any comments since the incident.

That's certainly fine, in my opinion though, it makes one appear chicken to not say something at a time where it would have made a difference, and then get on a computer where it's safe, and make a statement then.

Derek should have said something to myself or someone else from Westside and I'd have done something about it on the spot.


I would have commented on your dealings with the situation but felt you handled that just fine, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about your involvement. I think you did your part for westside. You will have to keep us updated though on Westside's stance for this, might be stiff to say it's part of our business but at the same time it would be great to hear the stance of westside and why? This will help in understanding how team such as westside approach situation like this, for future references.

Some of this will be delt with at Westside and will stay there. Westside is not responsible to the public or anyone else. While Dave would be making a wise decision in making his own statement, the rest of the gym members don't owe anything.

A) we will not speak on behalf of Dave

B)we are not the ones who took the action.

As for Westside's approach to this situation, there will be a statement, but it will not come from me. Although I do not expect there to be any future instances.

Ryano
08-25-2009, 04:17 PM
I think i wouldnt say anything. Im not saying thats the right thing to do but, i dont want to be the one to cause problems/disruptions at a meet. I can see why people didnt say anything. Im also curious if hoff made any comments since the incident.

I would have been on his shxx right away. It was a pro meet and he is a thief. If you see someone stealing something from someone else you won't say anything? If someone had said something all this crap could have been avoided. He would have been dq'd at the meet.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:18 PM
I would have been on his shxx right away. It was a pro meet and he is a thief. If you see someone stealing something from someone else you won't say anything? If someone had said something all this crap could have been avoided. He would have been dq'd at the meet.

Slash is 15 years old so I can understand his reluctance. It would indeed be a little intimidating, but you are correct, right or wrong in any situation isn't changed by how intimidating said situation might be.

JK1
08-25-2009, 04:24 PM
Amazing. Another person who says they saw it but didn't say anything at the meet, but when everyone gets home and is safe they want to say they saw it?

I just don't understand why that is.

I'm not saying you're wrong, what I am saying is that you should have stepped up and said something. You could have said it to me, Lou, any one of the judges, or at least one of the other guys competing who would have had the balls to step up and say something.

To come out with it now because it's "safe" doesn't say a whole lot for your position.

I would have been the first person to investigate it had you come and talked to me personally if you didn't want to confront them yourself.

Travis, I don't know.... I know you are defending a teammate, and I understand that. I'd do the same thing. The thing is I'm not so sure I would have said anything either. He freely admits
i didn't have the best angle at what i'm speaking about as it was far away but about a minute later there were a billion jokes about how awkwardly huge his belly was. it didn't dawn on me til i saw video of it because i missed all his benches in person.

I personally have seen some **** at meets where after it was all said and done, people were talking, it clicked about what I really saw. I don't care how big the warmup room was, if this one person saw it from a distance, then there were others who saw it close up. Where were they on Sunday? Where are they now?

Also, looking at this from the other side, its now 2 days after the meet. Penalties have been levied. We dont' know who talked to who via telephone or what not before this ever blew up and as is developed.

I agree with Rob, its time to lock the thread. The bottom line is its over, its been dealt with, its time to move on.

dbc3po
08-25-2009, 04:36 PM
I will be interested to see the statement made by Lou/westside.(Public one Travis hinted to)

Question for everyone if you were running a team like Lou does how would you handle a situation like this one?

As far as what happened reading the various forums I think Jesse and Lou have acted appropriately in handling this by taking their time and getting some fact and making a decision rather than blasting one at 10:00 am Monday morning. I dont think anything like this has ever happened before.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:40 PM
Travis, I don't know.... I know you are defending a teammate, and I understand that. I'd do the same thing. The thing is I'm not so sure I would have said anything either.

Actually right now I'm not defending him.

What I'm saying is if someone sees something they should speak up or they are as guilty as anyone else is (person who is cheating aside I guess)

JK1
08-25-2009, 04:42 PM
I will be interested to see the statement made by Lou/westside.

Question for everyone if you were running a team like Lou does how would you handle a situation like this one?

As far as what happened reading the various forums I think Jesse and Lou have acted appropriately in handling this by taking their time and getting some fact and making a decision rather than blasting one at 10:00 am Monday morning. I dont think anything like this has ever happened before.

In my opinion thats a decision for Lou to make and it isn't something that has to be made public. Its between him, Dave, and the other members of the team.

yes, I'd like to know, but honestly, its gossip. I'm not part of that team, I have no right to know. What needs to be public knowledge---the federation penalties, has been made so. Westside is not an open public gym. I dont' have the right to know what goes on behind those doors.


now, that said, if this was my team, and I was in charge of it and a member did something like that..... well, those of you who know me, know what would happen. The **** would hit the fan and it wouldn't be pretty. Fuk'em they choose to cheat like that, its proven that they cheat, the federation sanctions them, then I don't want any part of them.

Thats MY OPINION FOR MY GYM.....

slashkills
08-25-2009, 04:44 PM
Slash is 15 years old so I can understand his reluctance. It would indeed be a little intimidating, but you are correct, right or wrong in any situation isn't changed by how intimidating said situation might be.

Ive never competed but if i had i may have been more pissed than i am. Im looking at this from a spectators point of view not a lifters. I keep forgetting that money and other peoples places are effected by the cheating and considering that i may tell someone at the meet about it. But like i said i can see why some people who seen it said nothing.

JK1
08-25-2009, 04:45 PM
Actually right now I'm not defending him.

What I'm saying is if someone sees something they should speak up or they are as guilty as anyone else is (person who is cheating aside I guess)

I absolutely do not disagree with you about that.... but seeing something from across the room is different than seeing it standing right next to the person. Even then, with someone stuffing knee wraps under a bench shirt, my first reaction would be "What the hell did he just do?" it'd take a while to process that one. Especially in a meet as big as the Pro-Am.

Then I'd probably get wound up.

sayagain
08-25-2009, 04:48 PM
In my opinion thats a decision for Lou to make and it isn't something that has to be made public. Its between him, Dave, and the other members of the team.

yes, I'd like to know, but honestly, its gossip. I'm not part of that team, I have no right to know. What needs to be public knowledge---the federation penalties, has been made so. Westside is not an open public gym. I dont' have the right to know what goes on behind those doors.


now, that said, if this was my team, and I was in charge of it and a member did something like that..... well, those of you who know me, know what would happen. The **** would hit the fan and it wouldn't be pretty. Fuk'em they choose to cheat like that, its proven that they cheat, the federation sanctions them, then I don't want any part of them.

Thats MY OPINION FOR MY GYM.....

I agree that its a private matter for Lou and the team to take care of, but you really have to wonder how many people knew this was happening. I mean, he did have handlers that helped him get set-up for his bench attempts. So it really is a big issue with more than just one member of the team. I know that not everyone was involved, but there had to be at least a few people in on this stunt. This really has the potential to affect several Westside team members.

dbc3po
08-25-2009, 04:49 PM
In my opinion thats a decision for Lou to make and it isn't something that has to be made public. Its between him, Dave, and the other members of the team.

yes, I'd like to know, but honestly, its gossip. I'm not part of that team, I have no right to know. What needs to be public knowledge---the federation penalties, has been made so. Westside is not an open public gym. I dont' have the right to know what goes on behind those doors.


now, that said, if this was my team, and I was in charge of it and a member did something like that..... well, those of you who know me, know what would happen. The **** would hit the fan and it wouldn't be pretty. Fuk'em they choose to cheat like that, its proven that they cheat, the federation sanctions them, then I don't want any part of them.

Thats MY OPINION FOR MY GYM.....


Nice response. At my gym we call each other out on squatting high often. Also the statement I referred to to be made by Lou is what Travis hinted at in his post. What goes on inside westisde is their business only I agree with you on that.

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 04:55 PM
I absolutely do not disagree with you about that.... but seeing something from across the room is different than seeing it standing right next to the person. Even then, with someone stuffing knee wraps under a bench shirt, my first reaction would be "What the hell did he just do?" it'd take a while to process that one. Especially in a meet as big as the Pro-Am.

Then I'd probably get wound up.

True, but if you could see it well enough to say what it was, and what brand the knee wraps were, you could see well enough to know what was going on.

If you can't, it's best to probably keep it to yourself, or at least state it in such a way that says it a little less definitively than Derek initially did.

As for the statement that will be made, it's more in reference to the approach to this situation, not specifically what went on between Dave and Louie or the rest of the team.

MarcusWild
08-25-2009, 05:50 PM
It's not uncommon for people witnessing something to say nothing. There was a crazy woman that went to one of the piers in SF. One by one, she stripped her kids down naked and threw then into the ocean. Not a single person tried to stop her. Now that's flat out crazy. Basically, when there's a group of people everyone assumes someone else will do something about it so nothing gets done.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/20/MNG86FB9541.DTL

That's a very busy area and only one person called 911? It had to have taken some serious time to take the clothes off of each kid and toss them in. Not a single person tried to stop her?

JK1
08-25-2009, 06:13 PM
It's not uncommon for people witnessing something to say nothing. There was a crazy woman that went to one of the piers in SF. One by one, she stripped her kids down naked and threw then into the ocean. Not a single person tried to stop her. Now that's flat out crazy. Basically, when there's a group of people everyone assumes someone else will do something about it so nothing gets done.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/20/MNG86FB9541.DTL

That's a very busy area and only one person called 911? It had to have taken some serious time to take the clothes off of each kid and toss them in. Not a single person tried to stop her?


Thats because people just don't give a **** anymore.


Calling 911 for a woman throwing naked kids off a bridge? ok, I'd probably call 911 on that one. Thats so far over the edge its beyond kookooville.....

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 07:04 PM
You know what, that's a fair point Marcus.

I guess we're getting distracted from the main issue at this point.

I suppose it's really not up to me to say what Derek should or should not have done with what he saw. I respect everyone's right to do as they choose.

At the end of the day, the main issue was someone else (not Derek) chose to do something stupid and that is the main issue.

Rob Luyando
08-25-2009, 07:05 PM
Al Caslow I'm sorry for hiding behind my computer screen. And you can bet your ass I would have no problem telling the head judge I think he is blind in person.

Hazerboy
08-25-2009, 08:11 PM
It's not uncommon for people witnessing something to say nothing.

I almost watched two guys get in a fight in downtown chicago. some homeless guy was trying to steal another dudes bags of clotsh he had just bought. People all over the street just walked buy, stepping over the bags as the one dude yelled for someone to call the police.

I called the cops XD

Oh, and btw Rob your comments on this thread have been cracking me up all day LAWL

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 08:12 PM
Al Caslow I'm sorry for hiding behind my computer screen. And you can bet your ass I would have no problem telling the head judge I think he is blind in person.

haha I can believe that

Travis Bell
08-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Interesting comment that Ken Wheeler made. Takes a man to say this, but I think he echos everyone's sentiments who was there, is that we are just so shocked that this thing got by us all when it appears so large on tape! Props to Ken for the comment though


Fact is, you couldn't see anything under his shirt when he was coming up to bench...nothing. I was looking at every lifter as they came up to bench, as I always do...shirt neck too low, sleeves above elbows, etc, and there was absolutely nothing about Hoff's gear that looked out of place when he was walking up to the platform. That can easily be confirmed by the fact that NO ONE...lifters, spotters/loaders, ref's, no one in the crowd... no one... said anything before, during or after the lift. I never heard anything even after benching was over...nothing...and lots of people were talking about some of the benches during the entire break between bench and deads, so it's not like no one was questioning any of the calls, they were...immediately after the benches were over. NOT ONE person came up to me and said anything like, "hey, didn't you see that there was something under Hoff's shirt?" I heard several complaints about other things but none about this. Later that day when my wife showed me the online video of the lift on her phone I couldn't believe it. How COULD I miss that????!!!! And I told her what I'm telling all of you here...I didn't see anything while he was getting set up on the bench. After seeing the video and several posts of still shots, I can't believe it wasn't caught either. I honestly can't explain that at all. Speaking for myself here, I was watching his butt and feet during the lift and then only for a brief fraction of a second after Phil said 'rack' did I look up at the bar for the lockout, but the bar was being racked in the saddles by then and I saw nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe it was like Billy posted,(paraphrasing) "they (the judges) weren't looking for something obvious like something under a shirt". That might be(?). I don't blame anyone for making the comments that have been made after seeing the pictures online. I would think the same thing...IF that was all I had to go by. One thing you will never get from me is an excuse if I screw up a call and I find out that I did, and I believe you would get the same "no excuse" attitude from all of the ref's this past weekend. We all miss lifts for one reason or another but that is why there are three judges. I agree with you all who question the call on this lift, it is truly the most blatant miss I have ever seen on a bench call and I accept my responsibility as one of the judges even though I can honestly say I saw nothing before, during or after the lift. The buck stops here. I obviously made a bad call. ken wheeler

KarstenDD
08-25-2009, 08:46 PM
i think Dave Hoff is a pretty cool guy. eh cheats on the bench and doesnt afraid of anything.

gopostal42
08-25-2009, 09:29 PM
You know what, that's a fair point Marcus.

I guess we're getting distracted from the main issue at this point.

I suppose it's really not up to me to say what Derek should or should not have done with what he saw. I respect everyone's right to do as they choose.

At the end of the day, the main issue was someone else (not Derek) chose to do something stupid and that is the main issue.


i don't blame you for the opinion you have about what i did and didn't do. you've go that right for sure. no hard feelings or for anyone else. hell i welcome your opinions.

Joe Black
08-26-2009, 02:23 AM
I think that's a great statement from Ken Wheeler. He's not trying to hide or make excuses, he's brutally honest that he made a mistake and in my opinion he should be shown some respect for coming out like that. (particularly considering how strongly people have put their views on the internet)

At the end of the day people make mistakes. We're human and can't be consistently correct all of the time. In every sport that has a referee, we've seen some unbelievable decisions. Decisions that just boggle the mind... Even from some of the best referees. I remember in the Euro 2004 (football), one of the best and most respected referee's had an absolute shocker... A player can receive 1 red card (straight sending off) or two yellow cards (sending off on the second yellow card) and they are off. He actually gave someone two yellow cards and allowed play to continue lol... I believe it even affected the outcome of the match... This is from one of the most experienced referee's out there and you would think just keeping track of who you booked is one of the easiest things to do, but everyone is human and everyone screws up from time to time. He sure didn't do it in purpose and it doesn't make him a rubbish referee.

The same goes for sportsman. People just do STUPID things from time to time. I remember in the 1996 World Cup against our arch rivals Argentina, David Beckham was down for a foul and as the person who fouled him walked past, he kicked out at him and was subsequently sent off for it. We ended up losing the game and many felt it was his fault. The abuse and stick he got was unbelievable. Here is one of our best players in England who has done so much for the game and never did ONE thing wrong and he made ONE mistake and he was treated so badly for a lengthy period of time. He was young and what was awesome to see is he responded awesomely. He apologised, put his head down and just played great football and everyone forgave him.

This kid is 21, inexperienced and probably very impressionable. ****, I KNOW I did things way worse than him when I was 21, hell I did things way worse than that when I was 25. He should be given the opportunity to come out and apoligise, take his punishment like a man and come back stronger. You can bet he won't do something like this again.

Tim K
08-26-2009, 09:06 AM
Travis,

Thanks for keeping us updated on this situation. It has been interesting to see how this problem has been handled. While it is extremely unfortunate that this has occurred at all, it is heartening to see the issue rectified in a professional, competent manner. I also appreciate Ken's perspective on what happened and how.

For me, looking at photos on the internet, it has been easy to reach my own conclusions. But I also know I wasn't there, I didn't see what happened, and therefore any comments I have are null and void. I don't have any experience judging a powerlifting competition. For that matter, I don't have any experience with gear. I'm just a guy that does what he can in his garage.

I do enjoy Rob's comments. I have a lot of respect for his expertise. He also scares the hell out of me.

We also have folks like Vincent, Travis, Chris, Dr. Dudley, Matt, and others that are truly the elite in Powerlifting. There is a lot of knowledge here and these are the opinions I have learned to listen to.

For the most part, the situation has been resolved. I'm left wondering what the rest of the story was... why bother trying something like this? Why allow your integrity to be tainted by such a stunt? Was it a spur of the moment decision? Did Hoff feel he was under that much pressure to win?

While the why's and what for's are none of my business, it would be revealing to understand the psychology behind the action. There is a lesson to be learned here. Hoff screwed up. Perhaps by sharing his story he can expunge his wrong and help other competitors from making the same mistakes.

This whole thing sucks all the way around... Hoff had an incredible squat too, and he threw it away on the bench.

Lones Green
08-26-2009, 10:33 AM
Travis,

Thanks for keeping us updated on this situation. It has been interesting to see how this problem has been handled. While it is extremely unfortunate that this has occurred at all, it is heartening to see the issue rectified in a professional, competent manner. I also appreciate Ken's perspective on what happened and how.

For me, looking at photos on the internet, it has been easy to reach my own conclusions. But I also know I wasn't there, I didn't see what happened, and therefore any comments I have are null and void. I don't have any experience judging a powerlifting competition. For that matter, I don't have any experience with gear. I'm just a guy that does what he can in his garage.

I do enjoy Rob's comments. I have a lot of respect for his expertise. He also scares the hell out of me.

We also have folks like Vincent, Travis, Chris, Dr. Dudley, Matt, and others that are truly the elite in Powerlifting. There is a lot of knowledge here and these are the opinions I have learned to listen to.

For the most part, the situation has been resolved. I'm left wondering what the rest of the story was... why bother trying something like this? Why allow your integrity to be tainted by such a stunt? Was it a spur of the moment decision? Did Hoff feel he was under that much pressure to win?

While the why's and what for's are none of my business, it would be revealing to understand the psychology behind the action. There is a lesson to be learned here. Hoff screwed up. Perhaps by sharing his story he can expunge his wrong and help other competitors from making the same mistakes.

This whole thing sucks all the way around... Hoff had an incredible squat too, and he threw it away on the bench.

Good post.

He had a good pull too! 795 is nothing to sneeze at

chris mason
08-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Daniel's opinion is spot-on! Well spoken.

formerbencher
08-29-2009, 12:06 AM
all this **** is a joke.paul is dead on, we are just suppose to let this go, yea right. everyone i ve ever trained with have earned their lifts fair and square. un****ing real what is passed these days and ignored because of who or where they train

SGT ROCK
08-29-2009, 02:12 AM
No one will ever know for SURE unless they were there....BUT, the experts or those opinions I value OVERWHELMINGLY feel it is cheating, as do I. Unless ALL of the pictures and videos are doctored (virtually impossible) then the guy cheated. I dont blame people involved with him directly to come to his aid as a true friend would, but it is pretty hard to get out of the hot water with this one. Let everyone be the judge, there is A FOREIGN OBJECT UNDERNEATH THE SHIRT, it IS there PLAIN AND SIMPLE. If you dont think it is cheating then so be it, many do.

Semper Fi

chris mason
08-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Brent, you miss the point. Ok, let's say you're right, there is something there. Nothing was noted at the meet and his lifts were passed. Now what do you want to do? Should we use internet posted videos to overturn meet results even though that is not part of the rules? Should we change the rules of a meet after the fact? What integrity would that bring to the sport? THAT is what you, and all of those with a similar opionion totally miss about all of this. I have never said he didn't do it. I HAVE said he should be given the benefit of the doubt. I HAVE also said I agree the pics and video look bad.

I hope EVERYONE reads the above VERY carefully and then considers what they want to say about the matter.

Off Road
08-29-2009, 08:57 AM
Should we use internet posted videos to overturn meet results even though that is not part of the rules?

I haven't posted because...well, I don't compete and I just don't care. But, I think Chris makes an excellent point here.

SGT ROCK
08-29-2009, 09:49 PM
Brent, you miss the point. Ok, let's say you're right, there is something there. Nothing was noted at the meet and his lifts were passed. Now what do you want to do? Should we use internet posted videos to overturn meet results even though that is not part of the rules? Should we change the rules of a meet after the fact? What integrity would that bring to the sport? THAT is what you, and all of those with a similar opionion totally miss about all of this. I have never said he didn't do it. I HAVE said he should be given the benefit of the doubt. I HAVE also said I agree the pics and video look bad.

I hope EVERYONE reads the above VERY carefully and then considers what they want to say about the matter.

I didnt miss your point, to me and many others you really didnt make a clear point. You yourself stated the photos and evidence are shady at best. Ok Chris lets say YOUR right, lets just delete all photos, all vids, and because no one said anything at the show, he got away with one and we should just let it go. Now THAT is bringing integrity to the sport as YOU suggest. PLEASE ELABORATE on the benefit of the doubt, I really want you to explain to me how that huge lump in his singlet is somehow legal and we should just turn the other cheek so to speak, PLEASE tell me about this "benefit of the doubt' that you are talking about.

quoted from Daniel:

This kid is 21, inexperienced and probably very impressionable. ****, I KNOW I did things way worse than him when I was 21, hell I did things way worse than that when I was 25. He should be given the opportunity to come out and apoligise, take his punishment like a man and come back stronger. You can bet he won't do something like this again.

It is safe to say MOST would have already apologized and or spoke on the matter.....if he has I have not seen it yet. What would you say is the hold up on the matter?
__________________


Oh and one more thing Chris, this is coming from ROB, he has been in the game a long time and has EARNED the priviledge to lift in more big meets than just about anyone on this board, so I feel his opinion carries some BIG weight:

Theye weren't APT wraps they were inzer wraps that were taken out of Brian Carrolls bag.

And just one more thing. I love being right. Now will one of the moderatoers lock this subject from further abuse before any more panties get ruffled."

Rob Luyando
Senior M




Rob apparently SAW the incident, not that the video and pics were enough, but for me...that puts it OVER THE EDGE, its a done deal, UNLESS OF COURSE HOFF COMES OUT ASAP AND GIVES HIS VERSION.


Semper Fi

thewicked
08-29-2009, 10:36 PM
Didn't Mike Ruggeria (sp) have abs that protruded as he pushed out to meet the bench? It's in alot of the old westside videos and it was exactly what I thought was happening when Iwas watching the hoff tapes... but then all this stuff. BAD JU JU for sure if it's cheating. If it's not and it WAS/IS his abs...he should have no problem debunking all this by doing a bench RAW and showing us abs we all need to be gifted with to bench!!!

thewicked
08-29-2009, 10:41 PM
what sucks the most is the fact that even if no one from westside knew about it..he was flying their flag at the meet. So not only does it look bad on him..but bring a dark cloud over the gym no matter how sunny the weather in ohio. I'd hate to be in his position when I got back to that place. Louie is not someone I'd ever want to disrespect...

SGT ROCK
08-30-2009, 01:07 AM
what sucks the most is the fact that even if no one from westside knew about it..he was flying their flag at the meet. So not only does it look bad on him..but bring a dark cloud over the gym no matter how sunny the weather in ohio. I'd hate to be in his position when I got back to that place. Louie is not someone I'd ever want to disrespect...

VERY good point bro. I am certain that Hoffs action IN NO WAY reflect what Westside is about. Having met DOZENS of Westside lifters at shows I can tell you that none of them I have met would condone such an act. When you are a member of a certain group, club etc, you must always keep in mind that your actions will often dictate how others view the entire club/group, regardless if that is right or wrong, that is just how the public views things.

Example, being a member of the Ancient Free and Accepted Masonic Lodge (Masons) or the USMC, you are expected to conduct yourself in a manner VERY MUCH ABOVE the standards of the standard US citizen.

Semper Fi

thewicked
08-30-2009, 08:23 AM
gotta be careful too how this all plays out.. even though some consider it "dealt with" it appears, with some many responses, posts, publications, etc. that it isn't. What DOES worry me is all this internet judging and I still do'nt understand wether or not things were overturned due to what was seen and said on the internet. If this is the way it all came to be this could be a real problem. Hindsight is always 20/20 but if we start saying HEY HE DIDN'T LOCK IT OUT or HEY HE DIDN'T MAKE DEPTH and it was missed by the judges.. .(which seems to happen often) are they going to start overturning decisions too?

if it was allowed and accepted at the time of the contest it should stand when 3 experienced judges give it the green light. Unless they're going to have "instant replays" inside a tiny television viewing like they do the NFL, what is said and done because of this incident too needs to be taken into consideration outside the obvious cheating.

Lones Green
08-30-2009, 08:46 AM
I didnt miss your point, to me and many others you really didnt make a clear point. You yourself stated the photos and evidence are shady at best. Ok Chris lets say YOUR right, lets just delete all photos, all vids, and because no one said anything at the show, he got away with one and we should just let it go. Now THAT is bringing integrity to the sport as YOU suggest. PLEASE ELABORATE on the benefit of the doubt, I really want you to explain to me how that huge lump in his singlet is somehow legal and we should just turn the other cheek so to speak, PLEASE tell me about this "benefit of the doubt' that you are talking about.

quoted from Daniel:

This kid is 21, inexperienced and probably very impressionable. ****, I KNOW I did things way worse than him when I was 21, hell I did things way worse than that when I was 25. He should be given the opportunity to come out and apoligise, take his punishment like a man and come back stronger. You can bet he won't do something like this again.

It is safe to say MOST would have already apologized and or spoke on the matter.....if he has I have not seen it yet. What would you say is the hold up on the matter?
__________________


Oh and one more thing Chris, this is coming from ROB, he has been in the game a long time and has EARNED the priviledge to lift in more big meets than just about anyone on this board, so I feel his opinion carries some BIG weight:

Theye weren't APT wraps they were inzer wraps that were taken out of Brian Carrolls bag.

And just one more thing. I love being right. Now will one of the moderatoers lock this subject from further abuse before any more panties get ruffled."

Rob Luyando
Senior M




Rob apparently SAW the incident, not that the video and pics were enough, but for me...that puts it OVER THE EDGE, its a done deal, UNLESS OF COURSE HOFF COMES OUT ASAP AND GIVES HIS VERSION.


Semper Fi

I didn't even know Rob Luyando was there...?

SGT ROCK
08-30-2009, 08:48 AM
gotta be careful too how this all plays out.. even though some consider it "dealt with" it appears, with some many responses, posts, publications, etc. that it isn't. What DOES worry me is all this internet judging and I still do'nt understand wether or not things were overturned due to what was seen and said on the internet. If this is the way it all came to be this could be a real problem. Hindsight is always 20/20 but if we start saying HEY HE DIDN'T LOCK IT OUT or HEY HE DIDN'T MAKE DEPTH and it was missed by the judges.. .(which seems to happen often) are they going to start overturning decisions too?

if it was allowed and accepted at the time of the contest it should stand when 3 experienced judges give it the green light. Unless they're going to have "instant replays" inside a tiny television viewing like they do the NFL, what is said and done because of this incident too needs to be taken into consideration outside the obvious cheating.

Another good point, instant replay for depth etc has never been a part of the sport. Using it to find blatant cheating that WAS A DEFINITE INFRACTION AND WAS SIMPLY NOT CAUGHT BY THE JUDGES IS DIFFERENT. WITH DEPTH FOR INSTANCE THERE IS SOME BIT OF QUESTIONABILITY OR UNCERTAINTY, WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS, WELL, HE CHEATED WITH A VERY CREDIBLE EYE WITNESS TO BOOT.

Semper Fi

mattdunkin
08-30-2009, 09:26 AM
I'm going to say this,speak my peace and that's it,but everything about this incident and especially what has come about after it makes me sick.First off,yeah,I wan't there but I was online before any video came out and saw several people posting online from the meet about Hoff's bench and how you would see what was up with it as soon as the videos were posted online.Second,I've seen the videos and the freeze-frames and I wasn't born yesterday and no one is going to tell me that there wasn't something under that shirt and I'm not talking about distended or mis-shaped abs because that is b.s. and no human has abs that are shaped like what was seen on the video,distended or not.Regarding the video again-remember the person who shot and posted the original video and then pulled it is a big fan of Westside and its members so that kills the whole conspiracy theory that it was doctored or altered-as for the freeze-frames,I will say I have no idea as they could have been photoshopped,but I seriously doubt it.This is all well and good,all of this wasn't what really got me,but it is what came about afterwards that got to me and it is summed-up in a word Louie used several times in his statement-integrity.Where is the integrity here-in all of this?I truthfully was shocked when I read his statement as it was far from what I expected coming from a man I respected.Guilty or not,why hasn't Hoff come out and said something-I know damn good and well if it was me being accused of something I didn't do I'd be the first one to stand up and say something.So again I say,where is the integrity?

JK1
08-30-2009, 12:51 PM
gotta be careful too how this all plays out.. even though some consider it "dealt with" it appears, with some many responses, posts, publications, etc. that it isn't. What DOES worry me is all this internet judging and I still do'nt understand wether or not things were overturned due to what was seen and said on the internet. If this is the way it all came to be this could be a real problem. Hindsight is always 20/20 but if we start saying HEY HE DIDN'T LOCK IT OUT or HEY HE DIDN'T MAKE DEPTH and it was missed by the judges.. .(which seems to happen often) are they going to start overturning decisions too?

if it was allowed and accepted at the time of the contest it should stand when 3 experienced judges give it the green light. Unless they're going to have "instant replays" inside a tiny television viewing like they do the NFL, what is said and done because of this incident too needs to be taken into consideration outside the obvious cheating.


Exactly. This whole thing has bugged the living **** out of me. I love the sport of Powerlifting---its a hobby, but I put a whole lot into it. I don't like to think that something like this would occur at a meet that is supposed to have some of the best of the best. I've tried every way I can to prove the videos/pictures are doctored or aren't and he cheated for my own piece of mind. The best answer I have is "I don't know".

I had the opportunity to talk with Jesse about this yesterday. I think its important that others hear what he told me. He told me point blank he felt as if the initial suspension was the correct thing to do at the time---to give everyone a chance "to breathe" as he put it. To me, that made sense the way Jesse explained it.

I don't like the idea of making a decision and then reversing it, but Jesse from the beginning said that this situation was not done. In my mind it also speaks volumes for the structure of the SPF. All of the board was not at this meet. This is an event that sets a precident. It takes time to get into touch with people and review an incident. It also says that Jesse is willing to try to take control of a situation involving the SPF, but he is going to consult and listen to the individuals that are involved with the ultimate decisions of the federation. He is also willing to become the public target by reversing the decison he initially made once he's had an opportunity to consult with the board of directors of the federation. I'm sorry if you disagree, but to me, that speaks volumes not only for Jesse's character, but also for the SPF as a federation.

The revocation of the initial suspension comes not just from Jesse, but from consulting with the SPF board. The problem with all of this is the simple fact that if something occured, it was not caught the day of the meet. There were multiple people, including some of the top lifters, judges, meet officials and the audience who apparently did not catch this incident or if they did see it, they did not come forward the day of the meet. It did not come to light until later when a questionable photo is posted on PLWatch. If all these people saw it, why didn't they come forward? Why haven't they come forward? There were multiple videos taken at that meet, why hasn't there been another one or still photos from the audience considering how much coverage this has gotten? Again, nothing was said the day of the meet. Yes, video review is used THE DAY OF THE EVENT in other sports. Even with its use, you do not see the NFL or other sports reversing a referees decision 2 days later. Once the time clock stops, whats in the books stays in the books. It doesn't make sense for powerlifting, a sport without video review, to begin reversing the decisions of the judges days after the meet is over.

I agree with Jesse on this. We absolutely cannot allow ourselves to begin down that slipperyslope of internet judging dictating the outcome of what happens on the platform in a sport where video review IS NOT part of the judging process. We are all entitled to our opinions, but if we begin this its all too easy to see multiple records, attempts, etc being ripped to shreds by interent wannabe Gods and ultimately reversed. Would any of us like this? We bench a PR at a meet, get 3 white lights, only to have it taken away days to weeks later because of a bunch of online bull****? I don't know about you, but I'd probably quit powerlifting if that was allowed to happen.

I personally don't necesssarily agree with the fact that there was a chance that Hoff cheated, however, I cannot argue with the logic behind how that final decision was made.


I also asked about the prize money... we all know Scott Cartwright did something very respectable in donating a portion of his prize money to Bob Young's medical care. As far as I know, this hasn't been stated online, but per Jesse, that money stays where it was paid out to the lifters, this money will go to Bob for his medical care since Scott has decided thats where it should go. To me thats the one, most important positive thing to come from all of this.

Lets focus on the positive, its time to move on.

chris mason
08-30-2009, 01:54 PM
Well said JK.

Ryano
08-30-2009, 02:24 PM
If a lifter is "on" and lifts in a tested meet, wins, gets tested positive after the fact, he is DQ'ed and suspended for "cheating". He was not caught at the meet, but after the fact. I fully agree that video/internet judging should NOT be reason to reverse a judgement call made by the attending referees. But proof of cheating on a lift is reason for the DQ and suspension IMO. It's NOT the same as a judgement call on the proformance of the lift. Hoff cheated, Michael Jackson is dead, Ted Kennedy is dead, it's all over. Life goes on. I will sleep good tonight knowing that I didn't cheat at my meet. Hopefully Hoff will lie awake for hours reflecting on what an ASS he made of himself and learn from it.

Jeff Roark
08-30-2009, 04:43 PM
Simply what this all boils down to and could have cured many past problems, and that judges need to tighten up on whats acceptable and whats not. If they are strict and enforce all rules of the federation, the lifters are going to follow suit. They don't want red lights so they'll meet the standards. The internet judges are right and wrong in many ways. They know there has been some poor judgement calls and these are what seems to attract all the attention and this is clear in many cases, but they can't always see everything else thats going on. The atmosphere at some of these meets has to be hectic and stressful for all and when there is a situation like that there is going to be human error. I think the platforms need cleaned up, too many spotters, clutter and confusion. The judges should have up close and personal view of whats going on. I think this would help alot of these higher squat calls and may could have prevented this Hoff situation. If the spotters are truely there for safety but they are in the way, alternative ways to protect the lifters might need to be looked at. Like I read somewhere else, and I agree, that the spud straps on the monolift is one of the better ideas I've seen lately for powerlifting meets. Doesn't Elitefts have a bench with some safety bars to protect the lifters neck and head area? Maybe something like this could be mandatory to eliminate a few too many bodies surrounding the lifter when the lift begins.