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slashkills
08-29-2009, 08:39 AM
I was talking to a guy at my mma classes last week and he said olympic lifts really seemed to help him. what do you guys think, olympic lifts for mma?

joey54
08-29-2009, 10:44 AM
My opinion is olympic lifts for olympic lifting. Training MMA for MMA. The lifts might help to some degree, but they aren't going to turn someone into Shogun Rua. This is similar to my opinions on olympic lifting and football players.

prettyboyfloyd
08-29-2009, 01:55 PM
They may help to some degree in terms of improving explosive power etc. But as said above the best training for MMA is MMA training. Try doing some Oly lifts if you like, see how you get on with them.

Travis Bell
08-29-2009, 03:21 PM
There are much more productive ways of becomming powerful and explosive in my opinion

Jason198
08-29-2009, 04:03 PM
OhHHHH SORRY but seeing explosive tagged to the OL gets me going, yeah maybe some what, but as Travis Bell said above, I think there is much better ways to become explosive. Good luck in your training wish you the most success.

slashkills
08-29-2009, 04:06 PM
yea i know everyones opinions about olympic lifts for football but thought maybe there was room for them when training mma. Guess not, thanks guys.

Sean S
08-29-2009, 06:06 PM
yea i know everyones opinions about olympic lifts for football but thought maybe there was room for them when training mma. Guess not, thanks guys.

No one said they were completely worthless, they just said there were better ways. If you enjoy them and are able to do them correctly or get good instruction, go ahead. If you are interested in the optimal ratio of time spent learning vs. carryover to MMA, there may be better ways.

joey54
08-29-2009, 06:34 PM
No one said they were completely worthless, they just said there were better ways. If you enjoy them and are able to do them correctly or get good instruction, go ahead. If you are interested in the optimal ratio of time spent learning vs. carryover to MMA, there may be better ways.

This. If you want to do them, and are already decent with form, they certainly won't hurt.

slashkills
08-30-2009, 10:01 AM
If you are interested in the optimal ratio of time spent learning vs. carryover to MMA, there may be better ways.

I want the lifts that will improve my performance the fastest. I want to continue training for powerlifting as well so i dont want to through olympic lifts in the mix if they really arent the best option.

mattdunkin
08-30-2009, 10:20 AM
It is funny that you posted this because just the other day I was reading one of my old PLUSA's-the July 1995 issue to be exact-and there is an article in there on Dave Beneteau who was a powerlifter and also went all the way to the finals in UFC 5 only to lose to Dan Severn.It is funny because in the article they propose the idea that powerlifting might be as good a martial art as Karate due to the size,strength,and aggresiveness that powerlifters have.Anyway,just thought I'd throw that out there seeing the topic at hand.

sobrinoc
08-30-2009, 11:04 AM
You could use the olympic lifts as part of a general barbell complex program for conditioning. A LOT of mma fighters have improved their conditioning through complexes including Couture.

ZenMonkey
08-30-2009, 12:01 PM
I think your best bet is to try and see what kind of improvements you find. You might get more return at a quicker rate with box jumps and plyos than O lifts. O lifts might just take too much time for you to see return.

gymbo
08-30-2009, 01:57 PM
If oly is not the best route to take what is?

slashkills
08-30-2009, 07:53 PM
If oly is not the best route to take what is?

Plyometrics and dynamic effort work for explosiveness. For strength compound lifts like bench, squat, and deadlift are key.

slashkills
08-30-2009, 07:55 PM
I think your best bet is to try and see what kind of improvements you find. You might get more return at a quicker rate with box jumps and plyos than O lifts. O lifts might just take too much time for you to see return.

Thanks for the help. Ive been toying with the idea all day. Im thinking ill throw in some olympic lifts on a DE lower day and do plyos on an off day.

Mon-ME squat
tue-mma and plyos?
wed-ME bench
thur-mma
fri-DE squat and oly lifts
sat-RE upper
sun-off

slashkills
08-30-2009, 07:56 PM
You could use the olympic lifts as part of a general barbell complex program for conditioning. A LOT of mma fighters have improved their conditioning through complexes including Couture.

I will be doing complexes and super sets for sure from now on. Thanks for the advice.

Hazerboy
08-31-2009, 01:16 PM
Plyometrics and dynamic effort work for explosiveness. For strength compound lifts like bench, squat, and deadlift are key.

Once your numbers are good enough. A lot of people glance over this, but if you can't squat 2x bodyweight and similiarly for your other lifts its a little silly to be doing plyometrics.

MarcusWild
08-31-2009, 01:31 PM
Yeah, you shouldn't do depth jumps unless you can squat 2x's BW. You would probably benefit from altitude landings off a 18-24" box though. Those are the best way to start. Make sure you hold the landing for 5 seconds. Once you are good at those then you can do box jumps. You don't need to squat 2x's BW for that stuff.

I'm not sure olympic lifts build explosiveness. I think people that are naturally explosive make good olympic lifters. It's not that the olympic lifting made them explosive. I think using powerlifting movements with bands are the best to build explosiveness. I was NEVER explosive before powerlifting. Now I can do 3x5 box jumps to a 21.5" box with 144 lbs of weight.

ZenMonkey
08-31-2009, 01:42 PM
Yeah, you shouldn't do depth jumps unless you can squat 2x's BW. You would probably benefit from altitude landings off a 18-24" box though. Those are the best way to start. Make sure you hold the landing for 5 seconds. Once you are good at those then you can do box jumps. You don't need to squat 2x's BW for that stuff.

I'm not sure olympic lifts build explosiveness. I think people that are naturally explosive make good olympic lifters. It's not that the olympic lifting made them explosive. I think using powerlifting movements with bands are the best to build explosiveness. I was NEVER explosive before powerlifting. Now I can do 3x5 box jumps to a 21.5" box with 144 lbs of weight.

Come on now. How can someone seriously say olympic lifts do not develop explosiveness? I think both PL and WL develop explosiveness in their own right.

slashkills
08-31-2009, 01:52 PM
Once your numbers are good enough. A lot of people glance over this, but if you can't squat 2x bodyweight and similiarly for your other lifts its a little silly to be doing plyometrics.

Im not going to be doing crazy stuff right off the bat. Ill take it slow untill im stronger and then start throwing in harder plyos. I have the verticle jump bible and it outlines a routine for weaker dudes like myself.

slashkills
08-31-2009, 01:54 PM
I'm not sure olympic lifts build explosiveness. I think people that are naturally explosive make good olympic lifters. It's not that the olympic lifting made them explosive. I think using powerlifting movements with bands are the best to build explosiveness. I was NEVER explosive before powerlifting. Now I can do 3x5 box jumps to a 21.5" box with 144 lbs of weight.

even if they dont help my explosiveness doing them for reps will help my endurance so i think i will still give them a try.

ZenMonkey
08-31-2009, 02:03 PM
even if they dont help my explosiveness doing them for reps will help my endurance so i think i will still give them a try.

O lifts for endurance is a bad idea. You lose so much when form fails and put yourself at risk for injury.

Maybe keep things as they are for now (add in your plyos) and get as acquainted as you can with o lift form. Take your time with them and go easy on them. This way you aren't spending a ton of time on them and once you get good at them (form) you can put weight on. By doing this you wont waste valuable training time learning the lifts at in inferior weight and once you get them nailed you can add weight and maximize your benefit right off the bat.

Check out the videos in the Texas Method sticky (in the BB section) for tons of stuff on form.

slashkills
08-31-2009, 03:56 PM
ok thanks man. Ill go check the stickies.

MarcusWild
08-31-2009, 05:30 PM
Most people aren't going to be proficient enough at the olympic lifts to use enough weight to build explosiveness. There's not much point in investing a lot of time to learn the lifts if you aren't going to compete with them.

For conditioning, go get yourself a tire and hook a rope to it. You can drag that for conditioning work. You can probably get the tire for free if you ask around tire shops. They'll cut the sidewall so it can't be used on a car, but they'll give them to you. It saves them from having to pay to recycle it. You can throw weights/chains in it to increase the difficultly. Really, you want to work on being able to drag it for the length of a round though. You need to be able to last that long. Your rest should be the time between rounds then you drag it for another round.

Jeff Roark
08-31-2009, 05:32 PM
I have been doing the lifts for awhile and I honestly don't know, but I almost have to agree that the lifts haven't made me any more explosive than I was to begin with. Its much easier to be explosive with something you can put into the proper position and its perfectly balanced. Thats much easier than trying to explode into a body thats moving all over the place.

I think you are either explosive or not. Sure some exercises are going to sort of fine tune that trait, but I think you are or you aren't. I also have to agree with to a point with Travis, there may not be better exercises but there is definately easier exercises to practice explosive movements.

If you are determined to put this type of exercise into use for MMA I would suggest doing something simple like a Power Clean and Push Press. Something that would work great for this is do 1 clean 1 press for as many reps as you can get in 20 minutes. I did 175lbs 58 reps in 20 minutes using the Power Clean and Military Press. Talk about a lunger buster, it will definately put you on queer street.

slashkills
08-31-2009, 05:54 PM
Most people aren't going to be proficient enough at the olympic lifts to use enough weight to build explosiveness. There's not much point in investing a lot of time to learn the lifts if you aren't going to compete with them.

For conditioning, go get yourself a tire and hook a rope to it. You can drag that for conditioning work. You can probably get the tire for free if you ask around tire shops. They'll cut the sidewall so it can't be used on a car, but they'll give them to you. It saves them from having to pay to recycle it. You can throw weights/chains in it to increase the difficultly. Really, you want to work on being able to drag it for the length of a round though. You need to be able to last that long. Your rest should be the time between rounds then you drag it for another round.

I have a sled at the mma gym i train at. I also have access to a variety of tires for flipping. Strongman training seems to be a popular way to get stronger for mma at my gym. Things like tire flips, stone loads, sled pulls and tug of war with the sled.

Im going to follow ws4sb with strongman events, complexes/super sets, and alternate RE and DE. No olympic lifts because most people seem to be doubtful at how helpful they are. I dont really feel like learning them either because i wont be competing with them. So really i didnt change anything about the routine. Joe D is the man

thanks for the help

sobrinoc
08-31-2009, 06:06 PM
slashkills,

A couple of things you have to keep in mind when your organizing your conditioning and lifting for mma. Remember one thing, lifting is going to be basically GPP for your mma. So what your conditioning and lifting routine has to accomplish is the following: strength/power to hit harder; strength/power to throw/lift/move your opponent; and conditioning to last the rounds and recover faster. To get better at MMA you have to practice a lot of MMA so you should not get overly complicated with your lifting and conditioning, keep it basic.

If I were going to do MMA I would only do the following:

Lift two days a week with a simple A and B program. Play around with the rep schemes as you see fit. Maybe some days you want to go all out, maybe others you just want to get reps in, maybe others you want to be explosive. But always do your basic lifts.
A) Squat (Front, Rippetoe, Olympic, BB Hack, Trap Bar, whatever), Press, Chinups/Pullups
B) Box Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift

As for conditioning,
Barbell Complexes (As many as I can get for the duration of a round x how many rounds I would fight as done by Couture) (Remember you start these with like 65# and go up in weight as you get better)
or, Kettlebell work
or, sandbag work (Like the old school wrestlers used and fighters from GSP to Kimbo have done)
or, sled dragging (for the duration of a round x how many rounds I would fight)

Add some abwheel and full contact twists after your MMA sessions, eat right, drink your Results, Opticen, Fish Oil and ETS, sleep and you shouldn't seriously need more than that. Are there better routines? Probably. Does Louie or Joe DeFranco or whoever else do other and better stuff? Probably, but **** it man, you're not training under their roof are you? Just do some simple stuff and when you hit a wall then you can worry about tweaking.

MarcusWild
08-31-2009, 08:54 PM
I'd consider that type of strongman stuff more GPP than strength building. Another thing for conditioning, keep your rest periods short on DE sets. Bill and I hammered through 10x2 DE squats with warmups and putting gear on in 22 minutes one day. Now that's pushing it a bit fast, but you could use that pace for MMA.

I never did steady state cardio when I played hockey, and I was one of the best conditioned players in my league.

sobrinoc
08-31-2009, 11:30 PM
slashkills,

Remember that Joe DeFranco has a section in his article specifically for off season and in season training. Keep that in mind so that your lifting and conditioning doesn't strain your PRIMARY MMA activity. His off season is the more popular 3-4 day a week template + conditioning. His in season template is 1-2 day a week template:

"Taking all this into account, I’ll now give you some guidance by providing you with one (of many) sample in-season programs that I’ve used with my football clients.

WORKOUT #1
*This workout was performed on Monday. (Their game was on Saturday.)

1.

A. Max-Effort Upper Body lift – work up to 5RM week 1 & work up to 3RM week 2. *Be somewhat conservative with your weight selections. I don’t advocate forced reps during the season. The goal is to work up to a heavy weight, but you want to get all reps on your own.

*I also like performing 2-week mini-cycles during the season in which you alternate between full-range max-effort lifts and partial range lifts for the upper body. For example: Weeks 1&2 = bench press; Weeks 3&4 = 3-board press; Weeks 5&6 = incline bench press; Weeks 7&8 = floor press; Weeks 9&10 = close grip bench press; Weeks 11&12 = 4-board press
2.
“Blackburns” – Perform 2 sets of the 4 exercises that are shown in the video link. Hold each position for 10-20 seconds. Rest 1 minute between sets.
3.
Unilateral lower body movement – perform 3 sets of 8 reps

D1. Rowing variation – 3 sets of 10-12 reps
D2. DB Shrugs – 3 sets of 10-12 reps

5.
High rep abdominal circuit – perform 3-4 exercises and go through circuit 2X

WORKOUT #2
*This workout was performed on Wednesday, but it can also be performed on Thursday.

1.
Box Jumps – perform 3 sets of 3
2.
Box squats – perform 3-week mini-cycles with the following percentages: Week 1 = 60% of 1RM for 6 sets of 2 w/ 1 minute rest between sets; Week 2 = 70% of 1RM for 5 sets of 2 w/ 1 minute rest between sets; Week 3 = work up to 3 singles w/ 80-85% of your 1RM. Rest 2-3 minutes between sets. After 3 weeks, start the cycle over. You may increase or decrease the percentages depending on how you feel. Alternate between a regular barbell & safety squat bar every 3 weeks if you can.

C1. DB bench variation – perform 3 sets of 8-12reps
C2. Rear Delt/Upper Back exercise – choose one of the following exercises & perform 3 sets of 8-12 reps

*
Rear delt flyes
*
Scarecrows
*
Face pulls
*
Seated DB “power cleans”
*
Band pull-aparts

4.
DB or cable lateral raises – perform 2-3 sets of 12-15 reps

5.

Abs/Low back superset – perform 2-3 supersets of your favorite ab exercise with either 45-degree back raises or reverse hyperextensions. Perform 10-20 reps of each exercise.

Although I’ve now officially published a sample in-season template, I know I’m bound to receive a thousand emails asking me, “What should I do if I can only train once a week during the in-season?” I’m well aware that sports such as basketball, baseball and soccer – among others - have multiple games per week. This certainly makes in-season training a little more complicated. One way to combat this is to simply alternate between the two in-season templates provided above. For example, perform Workout #1 on one of your off days during the first week of your season. During an off day on week 2, perform Workout #2. Go back to Workout #1 again during week 3, and so on. If a light week comes up in which you only have one or two games, you can perform both workouts that week. As I’ve stated before, you must use your best judgment." http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/65-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part3.html

slashkills
09-01-2009, 09:37 AM
I'd consider that type of strongman stuff more GPP than strength building. Another thing for conditioning, keep your rest periods short on DE sets. Bill and I hammered through 10x2 DE squats with warmups and putting gear on in 22 minutes one day. Now that's pushing it a bit fast, but you could use that pace for MMA.

I never did steady state cardio when I played hockey, and I was one of the best conditioned players in my league.

so you think that ws4sb with enough endurance work comming from non ss cardio will be fine for mma. At first i was thinking i need more sport specific lifts. Now im thinking as long as im getting stronger and my endurance is getting better there isnt to much i need to make specific other than my actual mma training. as long as im getting stronger and adjusting rest and endurance exercise times to match a fight i think ill be ok.

slashkills
09-01-2009, 09:40 AM
slashkills,

Remember that Joe DeFranco has a section in his article specifically for off season and in season training. Keep that in mind so that your lifting and conditioning doesn't strain your PRIMARY MMA activity. His off season is the more popular 3-4 day a week template + conditioning. His in season template is 1-2 day a week template:



Im only going to be doing mma twice a week maybe three times at the most for a while so i dont think a westside routine will effect me much. It hasnt for the past month or so since ive been taking classes. I want to also train for powerlifting so i would rather keep a 3-4 days a week routine because its done well for me in the past. If i ever decide that mma is my main focus i will most likely go to a 2-3 day split.

aormz
09-01-2009, 10:12 AM
WOW, I am surprised at all of the non believers in olympic lifts for strength..

I have been doing Olympic lifts now for about 3 months, at first I wasnt cleaning the best form, but now I am squat cleaning 185, and it's sick. Snatch's also are great for a fighter b/c they incorporate your whole body to be taxed. Which is necessary for a fighter b/c it makes you really battle your fatigue levels and test your CNS.

If you want to have endurance for a fight you can look into Infinite Intensity, by Ross Jefferies

I definitly recommend Olympic lifts for fighters, since I've been doing these lifts, I have got quite stronger and alot more balanced. (my feet are so strong on the ground, it's hard to move me)

tnathletics2b
09-01-2009, 10:30 AM
I don't know a whole lot about MMA training, but I am a follower of Gym Jones and they train their MMA guys in deads, cleans, and all sorts of explosive compound lifts. I'm at work and have to keep the surfing to a minimum or I would post the link, but you can check out their pictures section to see what kind of stuff they do as well as selective workouts they post on their site.

MarcusWild
09-01-2009, 12:11 PM
Squat and deadlift will have you being explosive with far heavier weights than cleans and snatches.

Sensei
09-01-2009, 12:17 PM
This is the wrong forum for this - not many OLers here.

I know we've discussed this a lot, probably both here and in the GPP forum - cleans are a great exercise period and there are many ways to build explosiveness/power. As with most things, there are strengths and weaknesses inherent to the lift.

Jeff Roark
09-01-2009, 03:58 PM
WOW, I am surprised at all of the non believers in olympic lifts for strength..

I have been doing Olympic lifts now for about 3 months, at first I wasnt cleaning the best form, but now I am squat cleaning 185, and it's sick. Snatch's also are great for a fighter b/c they incorporate your whole body to be taxed. Which is necessary for a fighter b/c it makes you really battle your fatigue levels and test your CNS.

If you want to have endurance for a fight you can look into Infinite Intensity, by Ross Jefferies

I definitly recommend Olympic lifts for fighters, since I've been doing these lifts, I have got quite stronger and alot more balanced. (my feet are so strong on the ground, it's hard to move me)


aorzm,
I am not a non believer in the Olympic Lifts at all, I am very much for them. Here is one of my most recent Snatches just so you know that I do hit the O-lifts hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNHUfW6Awdc

I think they are awesome, but I also have learned that they don't trump the other lifts or vice versa.

Something that you say about battling your fatigue levels hold true if you are using them as a conditioning tool with light weights, like complexes. But, he was asking for something to improve his explosion. Fatigued and with heavy weights in your hands, and there won't be any explosion, especially with something so technical like teh squat versions of the snatch and clean. I agree that they will make you stronger overall but I don't think they are going to be something magical that will turn a fighter into a wrecking machine.

and Infinite Intensity is by Ross Enamait not Ross Jeffries.

Judas
09-10-2009, 07:52 AM
This is the wrong forum for this - not many OLers here.

Hah! This is always a fun topic.

I would have to disagree with a lot ov people here and say the lifts and their variants are as good a movement as you could get for training full-body explosive power. The power variants work a greater ROM, and build more power, so one might think them the best route. But then again the full lifts allow much more weight to be lifted, require a core strength unlike any other discipline, extreme athleticism, timing and nerve. Some football trainers even like the full cleans because they (to some extent) train the body to take a hit.

The downside to training the full lifts, and even in some cases the power variants is that it takes time... in the case ov the former, a LOT ov time to get them down with any kind ov good form. That could be counter-productive to a fighter who cares less about what he can lift and more about winning fights with the least amount ov (non-fighting skills) training.

If i had to train (the power aspect ov) a fighter, i would certainly use them, along with the big three lifts, all in the fullest ROM and with a heavy emphasis on power and speed (rate ov lift). But i wouldn't try and make a competitive weightlifter.

That said, i've trained with some National-level weightlifters (Canadian national, so NOWHERE NEAR the power ov an olympic level athlete) and i gotta say if the strong ones had ANY kind ov chin, and even marginal fighting ability... that would be some scary **** to stand in front ov in the ring. I couldn't imagine Klokov attacking someone else his size...

Throwers might be an even better example. Here is a lifter who can (typically) olympic lift well, and heavy, combined with a very strong bench (trained for speed), ridiculous squats and pulls. You watch some ov those olympic throwers fire a 16lb shot off their shoulder and tell me they wouldn't decapitate someone if they threw a good punch.

Just some thoughts...

CosmicForce
09-13-2009, 03:22 PM
I was talking to a guy at my mma classes last week and he said olympic lifts really seemed to help him. what do you guys think, olympic lifts for mma?I would suggest visiting Sherdog forums website to get an idea of what exercises to do for MMA strength training.

I know powerlifters in person and online who've said that powerlifting carried over to MMA. Martial artists more experienced than I have suggested doing the power versions of the O-lifts to develope explosive strength.