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Hazerboy
09-16-2009, 04:02 PM
I usually pretty skeptical of the "unheard of new training methodologies" t-nation sometimes touts (especially when its usually just a rehash of something I've already seen before), but today article looks pretty legit:


http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/dispelling_the_glute_myth

It makes some pretty phenomenal claims--"First, the experts don't know **** about the glutes. Yes, this means all of your favorite authors, professors, trainers, and coaches. Despite the fact that the gluteus maximus muscles are without a doubt the most important muscles in sports and the fact that strength coaches helped popularized "glute activation," none of them have a good understanding of glute training. Neither do bodybuilders, powerlifters, or physical therapists. They all think they do, but they don't."

anyways, I'm inclined to believe him. I mean, Louie basically redefined how people trained their hamstrings with the GHR and the reverse hyper -- those were essentially two exercises no one had ever seen before, and now they're almost an essential in most powerlifting gyms. Until then, everyone just touted heavy SLDL. hell, I could SLDL 450+, but I could barely do bodyweight when I first started on the GHR. Now I'm up to bodyweight + heavier band for 4x10 and I've noticed a serious improvement in my squatting.

So yeah. tell me what you think

jbrin0tk
09-16-2009, 05:15 PM
Thanks for sharing that article, Hazerboy. It's something to think about.

Pete22
09-16-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm going to try that bent-leg back extension on the GHR, looks like a decent assistance variation.

Clifford Gillmore
09-16-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm agreeing and disagree with it. Its all quality information, but to say that "Yes, this means all of your favorite authors, professors, trainers, and coaches" in reference to their knowledge is a ****ing bold statement. More stupid T-nation/muscle over hype. The information has been around for quite a while now, especially if I know it quite well (for being just being a sports science enthusiest). Pffft, I'm off to do 100 pull throughs.

MarcusWild
09-16-2009, 07:56 PM
This is the best part:

"Q: Ronnie Coleman had the best glutes of all time, and he never did hip thrusts. Neither did Andy Bolton, and he deadlifted more than any man in history. Usain Bolt is the world's fastest man, and he never did any hip thrusts. What gives?

A: Ronnie's glutes would have been even bigger from hip thrusts. Andy Bolton could get stronger at his deadlift lockout if he did hip thrusts. And Usain Bolt could get even faster if he performed hip thrusts. They are that good! Expect this exercise to be very popular in time."

I mean, the guy wrote a 675 page book on the glutes. He seems a bit obsessed. After 14 years of studying and training glutes this is the end result? I'd expect him to be a world class athlete in something with the way he talks about the importance of glutes and how great his training allegedly is.

Clifford Gillmore
09-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Bolton could add 5lbs to his deadlift with hip thrusts. True story.

Wayward
09-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Interesting read, thanks!

Might give this progression a shot going into a Men's hardball league this Spring and see how it works for me.

I'm training my butt off, but my speed/explosiveness has always been a handicap, even in the best shape of my life and performing what my past coaches deemed "necessary" training geared toward it. I have a bum hammy too that likes to twang me every once in awhile, so anything I can do to protect it is awesome in my book.

LuNa
09-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Bolton could add 5lbs to his deadlift with hip thrusts. True story.

Lol :clown:

Travis Bell
09-16-2009, 08:37 PM
Interesting read, however I think he overrates it a little. Here's why

It's similar to me basing an entire bench program (bench program because I compete in the bench, if I were a football player it'd be football) around my JM press.

When I started doing JM presses, I could only use 95lbs for sets of 8, now I've used 365 for sets of 8 and 425 for sets of 4. So my tri's are stronger. Cool.

The real question is, do I bench more as a result? And the answer is, after a certain point I did not. It became time to focus on some other angle of my bench which right now is floor press.

So back to the glute stuff he's emphasizing, mainly the hip thrust, yeah it's important, but you can't let it distract you from the main goal.

That was one thing missing from his article. He didn't say how his athletes became better at their sport, he didn't say how the powerlifter squatted more or the bodybuilder got more shredded glutes. They just got stronger at the hip thrust or whatever.

I will say the exercises he listed weren't bad ones at all. In fact some of them I noticed we've used at Westside for our athletes for quite some time.

So to sum up, good stuff, he just over focused a little bit and lost perspective in my opinion

Sensei
09-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Bolton could add 5lbs to his deadlift with hip thrusts. True story.
Lordy. You're right Risk - there's nothing new there for people who've been paying attention. Andy Bolton wrote that he had an "ass training day" at some point - I'm sure it was a joke, but not totally false either.

FWIW, Kelley Baggett wrote an article about glutes quite a while ago w. an unsolicited plug for a couple of videos by yours truly in it. http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/noglutes.html

Hazerboy
09-16-2009, 10:25 PM
Interesting read, however I think he overrates it a little. Here's why

It's similar to me basing an entire bench program (bench program because I compete in the bench, if I were a football player it'd be football) around my JM press.

When I started doing JM presses, I could only use 95lbs for sets of 8, now I've used 365 for sets of 8 and 425 for sets of 4. So my tri's are stronger. Cool.

The real question is, do I bench more as a result? And the answer is, after a certain point I did not. It became time to focus on some other angle of my bench which right now is floor press.

So back to the glute stuff he's emphasizing, mainly the hip thrust, yeah it's important, but you can't let it distract you from the main goal.

That was one thing missing from his article. He didn't say how his athletes became better at their sport, he didn't say how the powerlifter squatted more or the bodybuilder got more shredded glutes. They just got stronger at the hip thrust or whatever.

I will say the exercises he listed weren't bad ones at all. In fact some of them I noticed we've used at Westside for our athletes for quite some time.

So to sum up, good stuff, he just over focused a little bit and lost perspective in my opinion

I don't really see how its like basing an entire program around a single movement. I saw it more as "you're most likely really weak at all of these movements. Focusing on them could seriously benefit you." But I see what you mean. Thats sort of a problem of every t-nation article -- in one way or another, most of them want to change the entire way you train. Lots of hype, like someone else said. I guess after reading them every day while procrastinating i sort of ignore that.

And yeah I though it was really strange how he didn't mention any of the RESULTS his clients got. Whats the deal?? Anyways, I'm going to try some of this stuff out and see how it goes. I've never really trained glutes specifically besides the occasional lunge.

isaku900
09-17-2009, 01:04 AM
two sets of 20 bodyweight hip thrusts, check

two sets of 10 bodyweight single leg hip thrusts, check.

i'll try a barbell during deload week next week.

not really seeing what I'm "so weak" at...

frankly I don't really see the difference in these things and Kettlebell swings, pull throughs, and the glute activation drills we do already.

SEOINAGE
09-17-2009, 01:25 AM
I've done some of those single leg hip thrusts with my foot up on a ball, and honestly it was really hard at first and had to do them double legs for a while. Lots of those exercises are great prehab and rehab for back injuries, definitely wouldn't hurt to include them in your regimen, as to his claims....

martin
09-17-2009, 02:24 AM
frankly I don't really see the difference in these things and Kettlebell swings, pull throughs, and the glute activation drills we do already.

I see the difference, there's one guys who's spent 14 years trying to come up with something different to a swing/pullthrough etc and thousands of other coaches, athletes and trainers who just got to the gym and did them to make them perform better!

It makes sense but it's nothing new. Just trying to be different and failing.

chris mason
09-17-2009, 08:08 AM
It's like anything, try a few of the movements as accessory exercises and see if it helps your strength training or speed. If so, keep it up. If not, drop it.

Daniel Roberts
09-17-2009, 09:33 AM
That was one thing missing from his article. He didn't say how his athletes became better at their sport, he didn't say how the powerlifter squatted more or the bodybuilder got more shredded glutes. They just got stronger at the hip thrust or whatever.

If you want bigger glutes then some of these movements will achieve that, but if you're after bigger squat/dlift, he himself admits that, unless you're working around an injury or your glutes are a limiting factor, they'll not do much for your max.

Beyond ensuring glute activation/strength is optimal, as Tom said, ultimately you'll just be getting 'stronger on the hip thrust or whatever'.

BigTallOx
09-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Is it just me, or is this picture kind of funny. Veins all popping out screaming while he squats about 300 pounds
http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2009/09-154-training/01.jpg

chris mason
09-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Is it just me, or is this picture kind of funny. Veins all popping out screaming while he squats about 300 pounds
http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2009/09-154-training/01.jpg

That is how they do most staged photo shoots.

JSully
09-17-2009, 10:37 AM
That is how they do most staged photo shoots.

I prefer realisim.. I want to see him doing 500+ to ensure that the look on his face is real.

BigTallOx
09-17-2009, 11:13 AM
I prefer realisim.. I want to see him doing 500+ to ensure that the look on his face is real.

Me too, it kind of looses credibility to me otherwise, ie it's all for looks/ nothings real, so why should I believe anything on their site.

Hazerboy
09-17-2009, 11:27 AM
Me too, it kind of looses credibility to me otherwise, ie it's all for looks/ nothings real, so why should I believe anything on their site.

LOL thats like saying just because there's an arnie picture at the top of this page everyone on this board endorses steroid use.

I'll admit that t-nation has pretty awful formatting. I can't look at any of their pages at the library without looking like a total meathead -- large, cut up men lifting heavy weights everywhere, screaming, wearing very little clothing. Most of that crap is stock photos anyways - you'll see the same ones over and over rotated through the articles. But occasionally they have some really good stuff on there, and I respect some of what those guys do.


It's like anything, try a few of the movements as accessory exercises and see if it helps your strength training or speed. If so, keep it up. If not, drop it.

Yeah thats basically how I took it. We'll see how it goes!

BigTallOx
09-17-2009, 11:43 AM
LOL thats like saying just because there's an arnie picture at the top of this page everyone on this board endorses steroid use.


No it's not. I'd be like if that picture of Arnold was of him curling a 10 pound dumbbell and screaming, struggling like he wasn't going to be able to lift it. I'd just look plain silly, like that pic on that article. I didn't say the article was bad, just that the silly picture makes me not trust the site.

Anybody can buy stock photos and create a site and say anything they want, if that's what they did, why would I attach any credibility to it?

johnnyo_99
09-17-2009, 11:52 AM
usually the Atomic Dog articles are pretty funny, the only use I get out of the site

rbtrout
09-17-2009, 12:32 PM
Is it just me, or is this picture kind of funny. Veins all popping out screaming while he squats about 300 pounds
http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2009/09-154-training/01.jpg

I noticed that, as well. His spotter is screaming too and the squatter is wearing running shoes.


It was an interesting article, though, but I agree with Ben.

MarcusWild
09-17-2009, 01:22 PM
Travis nailed it. If this stuff worked so great, then he'd have a gym full of athletes using it and getting better. I tend to believe someone like Louie. Louie has a gym full of athletes he makes better. This guys is just some weenie that reads a lot and clearly doesn't spend enough time in the gym lifting and/or coaching.

dynamo
09-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Is it just me, or is this picture kind of funny. Veins all popping out screaming while he squats about 300 pounds
http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2009/09-154-training/01.jpg

the spotter looks like a dirty version of the guy from 300 and the squatter looks like corky romano. hilarious.

Hazerboy
09-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Travis nailed it. If this stuff worked so great, then he'd have a gym full of athletes using it and getting better.

I dunno man, if that were true no one would try anything new. I'm sure that was people's approach to conjugate training when it came out -- "Paul anderson squatted a bunch of weight w/o the conjugate system. If Louie's methods were are so good then why aren't all the strong people using them?" Sometimes things just take awhile to catch on. you can't be afraid to try new things!


I tend to believe someone like Louie. Louie has a gym full of athletes he makes better. This guys is just some weenie that reads a lot and clearly doesn't spend enough time in the gym lifting and/or coaching.

Yeah I agree with you here. A lot of the "experts" on t-nation don't look very big or strong to me so its pretty difficult for me to trust what they have to say. Obviously this guy has trained a few people, but what sort of results has he produced? Louie has world record holders under his belt.

Then again, he's primarily just done research. Do you think the guys that wrote Supertraining were massive guys with a big clientele to back up what they had to say? No. That came years after they wrote that book. I think you should listen to what the "weenies" have to say, but take what they say with a grain of salt. They tend to specialize and lose sight of the big picture (especially true here--this guy wrote a 600+ page book on GLUTES. Even westside book of methods was only 200 or so pages!), but there will probably still be some good info there. Most of the coaches I consider to be "good" -- like louie simmons or joe defranco -- take the what the guys in lab coats have to say and use it as inspiration, modifying it slightly to what works. I highly doubt westside follows all of the nitty gritty details that supertraining recommended, for instance, but I'm sure the principles are a bout the same (speed day, ME day, rotating special exercises, etc), which was primarily what the book was about.

So yeah. At the end of the day, this guy might be pretty arrogant about his methods (i.e. "andy bolton would deadlift more if he listened to my advice!") and not have the large clientele and results to back up what he has to say, and t-nation may not exactly be the most credible source, but I try and base my training on what works. So I'll give it a try and see if it does.

Thanks for the input guys. Its very refreshing to hear different people's opinions on this.

brad cikana
09-17-2009, 03:17 PM
Travis nailed it. If this stuff worked so great, then he'd have a gym full of athletes using it and getting better. I tend to believe someone like Louie. Louie has a gym full of athletes he makes better. This guys is just some weenie that reads a lot and clearly doesn't spend enough time in the gym lifting and/or coaching.
You said "weenie"!

MarcusWild
09-17-2009, 04:51 PM
The guy has been studying glutes for 14 years. If he hasn't produced some results by now with people he's trained, then it's not likely to ever happen. I'm not against trying new stuff. We try new stuff all the time in the gym.

I think Siff studied all the Russian materials that were based on experiments done with actual athletes. Russia was like a lab back in the day. They'd try all kinds of things on athletes in controlled experiments and measure what worked best.

Wayward
09-17-2009, 05:21 PM
It's like anything, try a few of the movements as accessory exercises and see if it helps your strength training or speed. If so, keep it up. If not, drop it.

Kind of how I'm looking at it...

Like I said previously in thread, I've always been lacking in the explosiveness/speed department in sports... and while I, in the past, have come in above average (toot toot, right?) in other areas, if I can sharpen those two up I think it will really improve my game and get me closer to my full potential.

I'm not a semi pro player (27, almost too old :)) or anything like that, I'm just fiercely competitive and like to get any edge I can. If this helps me, great. If not, it's at least something I can measure and recognize.

BigCorey75
09-17-2009, 05:44 PM
I gave the weighted glute bridges and weighted hip thrust a try today and they are grueling, im going to keep them in my routine for a while and see how they improve my lifts.

Luckily the gym was practically empty so i did not have an answer and weird questions because the lifts do look a little should i say provocative....lol

Sensei
09-17-2009, 09:49 PM
The guy has been studying glutes for 14 years. If he hasn't produced some results by now with people he's trained, then it's not likely to ever happen.
I think people need to be a little bit more wary when they read internet credentials. "studied glutes for 14 years" could very well mean that he's been an avid reader of "Blazing Bottoms" and spent his time in the back of aerobics class for 14 years.

What passes for "worked with Olympic athletes" is nothing close to "coached XY in the following events prior to the ----- Olympic Games". I've trained with and competed against quite a few Olympians in my life, but that is NOT the same thing as competing at an elite level or coaching them - not even close. Just sayin'...