PDA

View Full Version : intermittent fasting..



JSully
10-07-2009, 02:24 PM
I tried to run a search on IF but couldn't find anything worthwhile. This one goes out to the experienced nutritionist/dieters..

I know there are some toss-ups as to the benefit of IF. One of the best benefits is the increase in insulin sensitivity.

We all hate dieting. I'm carb cycling right now and seem to be doing a pretty good job at maintaining my weight because I keep ****ing everything up on the weekends, lol.

I was at a triad group with some of the guys from my church last night and they were talking about fasting. Well, I mentally drifted off the subject and started thinking about IF and the success I had with it last year.. I also remember reading over BR a different approach to IF as to recomp or bulk.... and yes, I frequently daydream off about my training and diet while in mid-conversation with people, haha..

So I'm thinking about utilizing intermittent fasting for my recomp/cut. I'm currently 280lbs and I'd like to get down to 250-255ish by january/february and ultimately down to 242 by june. These are actually very simple goals and I could probably get down to 242 by february, but at what expense, muscle loss.. So, the problem is I still want to get stronger in the mean time. I'm thinking with the way I have this set-up, it is a strong possibility and I can get the best of both worlds, drop in bodyfat and increase in strength.

I'm going to be training on saturday and sunday's, then again on tuesdays and thursdays. This would make an almost ideal setup for IF as Lyle advised to set it up (without the full body workouts, though).

Right now I'm doing 3700 cals on training days and about 2900 cals on off days. So, saturday and sunday would be 3700 cals each and would be a "normal" day. This would be good because the higher carbs on the weekedn allows me to get a little sloppy without going over total macros&cals. Monday is an off day and would therefore also be a "normal" eat day at about 2600-2700 cals. I would stop eating around 9-10p as I normally would. Tuesday I might do some light cardio in the morning with some caffeine, but no calories would be consumed prior to approx 530-6pm which is when I would have my pre-workout shake (normally is about 70/75/0 p/c/f). I would train, then come home, have my post-workout shake and then proceed to consume 3700-3900 cals (including the pre and post workout shakes) until the following day at approx 8-9pm (which is now wednesday). Thursday is another training day so I would approach this the same day as tuesday, IF until 530-6p then pre workout shake, training, post workout shake then cals until friday evening at 8-9pm.

So, here's how it would look.

Saturday - 3700cals
Sunday - 3700cals (training at 6a), stop eating at 10p
Monday - 2200cals (keto-ish 225p/100c/100f) between 6-10p
Tuesday/Wednesday - 3700-3900cals between 6p tuesday and 9p wednesday including shakes
Thursday/Friday - 3700-3900cals between 6p thursday and 9p saturday

I will probably bump protein to 350-400g between the 26-28hours of food consumption before the IF as I typically have 325g in a 24 hour period. The point of consuming the majority of calories the day after the fast is for training recovery.

If I calculate a weekly calorie intake it would look like this:

3700+
3700+
2200+
3900+
3900+
17,400cals..

compared to a typical week for me
3700+
3700+
3700+
3700+
2900+
2900+
2900+
23,500cals..

That results in a 6,100 calorie deficit from where I currently am (which is approximately maintenance, maybe a tidbit below).

So, I'm factoring in for recovery, I'm loading up a big shake pre-workout for energy. It should help my insulin sensitivity and nutrient partioning. It's only fasting for 3 days per week with the utilization of sleep, Not eating until 6pm will be pretty easy and 3 of the days per week are pretty high calories. 1 day is lower cals but it's 2200 cals in a 3-4 hour window so I can stuff myself pretty good.

By eating over maintenance during training recovery combined with 18-22hrs of IF, I'm thinking this should allow me to cut weight slowly without affecting my training.

What are your thoughts about this? Do you think there will be a LBM sacrifice? Strength hinderance? What problems do you see? What benefits do you see?

I'm looking to start this on 10/19 but regardless, I'm curious as to the other nutrition guru's input.

Now discuss!!




ps, no I have not done any recent research on IF. I'm just going by memory of when I read through the multi-page threads at BR last year.

JSully
10-08-2009, 08:42 AM
38 views and no responses.. what happened to all the nutritionists we used to have here?

Doobs
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
LOL unless we get slim and built back in here, I don't know that you're going to get any help. I'm interested, but don't know enough to provide any info. Do you find that stopping eating at 10pm gives you an advantage over eating right up until bedtime?

JSully
10-08-2009, 01:26 PM
LOL, I posted this over at BLC where slim and built frequent and still haven't gotten a response. Maybe I should just PM her.

I go to bed around 10pm, so that's no issue or advantage. I'm just trying to get others' thoughts on this IF. I'm pretty confident it will work quite well, I'm just looking for others input as well.

KingWilder
10-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Most people will only have general knowledge of IF. Your goals are VERY specific. Honestly, if you can afford to, I would check out www.LeanGains.com (SFW) and have Martin put together something for you.

VikingWarlord
10-08-2009, 03:11 PM
I've read that post 4 times and still have NO idea what your proposed fasting schedule actually is. I don't know the BR thread you're mentioning but this proposal seems unnecessarily complicated.

Now you said you had success with IF before and I'm going to guess it was a more "normal" 16/8 or 18/6 type of schedule (I use 20/4 or 21/3 depending how I feel each day). If that's the case, why not just go with that? I've found that it's easier to maintain a more regular schedule since it requires a lot less thought.

SDS
10-08-2009, 03:21 PM
I don't fast, but every now and then I'll eat very little for a day or two. Like today.....
Yesterday I felt a little off......bloated, rumbly stomach, gassy, low energy, etc. So today I'm eating broth, crackers and sprite zero. I'm already feeling better. This happens sometimes when I'm really trying to bulk. I'll just sort of get bogged down under all the food. I guess my GI system needs a break from time to time.

JSully
10-08-2009, 03:22 PM
I've read that post 4 times and still have NO idea what your proposed fasting schedule actually is. I don't know the BR thread you're mentioning but this proposal seems unnecessarily complicated.

Now you said you had success with IF before and I'm going to guess it was a more "normal" 16/8 or 18/6 type of schedule (I use 20/4 or 21/3 depending how I feel each day). If that's the case, why not just go with that? I've found that it's easier to maintain a more regular schedule since it requires a lot less thought.

I did have success with IF before, and was using more of a 21/3 and 22/2 schedule, but I did lose a good bit of strength. What I have proposed LOOKS complicated but it's really quite simple.

If you've read any of the in-dept threads on BR's forum where Lyle advises how to go about IF'ing to get solid cut results he says it is ideal to do full body workouts with a day between for rest. He advises to IF until the evening of your workout, hit up a pre workout shake then go workout. Once you get home, have your post workout shake and then proceed to eat your calories through the night and the following whole day for recovery purposes. Then start IF again that evening which will carry into the following day's training in which you would start that cycle all over again. Really the only thing different I'm doing is not the full body workout. I'm trying to maximize strength gains during recovery while staying in an overall deficit due to the IF.

It's very difficult on paper, but is much easier to explain in person. There are 48 hours in 2 days. You began fasting "last night" so today has started and you take your pre-workout shake at 1800hrs (6pm) then go workout. This is when you're recovery cals will begin you eat/drink your calories just like a normal day from 1800hrs (6pm) until 4500hrs (9pm the following night) in which you begin fasting once more. So, essentially, you'll be fasting for 22 hours.

I'll be IFing monday, tuesday and thursday, the rest of the days are pretty much normal intake.

Man this is hard to explain. Marci seemed to understand it well. lol..

VikingWarlord
10-08-2009, 03:49 PM
I did have success with IF before, and was using more of a 21/3 and 22/2 schedule, but I did lose a good bit of strength. What I have proposed LOOKS complicated but it's really quite simple.

If you've read any of the in-dept threads on BR's forum where Lyle advises how to go about IF'ing to get solid cut results he says it is ideal to do full body workouts with a day between for rest. He advises to IF until the evening of your workout, hit up a pre workout shake then go workout. Once you get home, have your post workout shake and then proceed to eat your calories through the night and the following whole day for recovery purposes. Then start IF again that evening which will carry into the following day's training in which you would start that cycle all over again. Really the only thing different I'm doing is not the full body workout. I'm trying to maximize strength gains during recovery while staying in an overall deficit due to the IF.

It's very difficult on paper, but is much easier to explain in person. There are 48 hours in 2 days. You began fasting "last night" so today has started and you take your pre-workout shake at 1800hrs (6pm) then go workout. This is when you're recovery cals will begin you eat/drink your calories just like a normal day from 1800hrs (6pm) until 4500hrs (9pm the following night) in which you begin fasting once more. So, essentially, you'll be fasting for 22 hours.

I'll be IFing monday, tuesday and thursday, the rest of the days are pretty much normal intake.

Man this is hard to explain. Marci seemed to understand it well. lol..

Ok, I think I got it that time around. On the days you're fasting, your feed will always start at 6pm, according to your first post. Something I do know is that the fast isn't usually considered as started until your stomach is essentially empty. If you've still got food in it, you're not really fasting. That's why I like the really short feeding windows to give plenty of time for gastric emptying so the fast can really begin.

If your fast begins at midnight (after most of the food has cleared your stomach), you fast for 18 hours including one sleep cycle until 6pm that evening. Your next 26-27 hours are a feed that will also contain a sleep cycle. After you're done eating, the next few hours will be spent digesting.

I've never read the threads over there but have seen people come up with some weird-ass plans like 36/8 and other things like that.

Now that I've said all that and probably confused things even farther, this will probably work well to get what you want. The other up side is that, even if it doesn't, you tweak it until it does.

JSully
10-08-2009, 07:27 PM
If your fast begins at midnight (after most of the food has cleared your stomach), you fast for 18 hours including one sleep cycle until 6pm that evening. Your next 26-27 hours are a feed that will also contain a sleep cycle. After you're done eating, the next few hours will be spent digesting.

Yeah, final meal will be sometime around 8pm and I wouldn't start eating again until 6pm the next day actual fasting time will be approx 18hrs give or take..

I personally prefer the 3 hour IF window that way I could stuff my face with 3k+ calories .. but it makes more sense to add an extra 3-400 cals and drag it out over 26-28 hours during full recovery time post workout, mainly because of the protein sythesis upregulation training causes. If I recall correctly, protein synthesis is spiked post workout and can be upregulated for up to 36 hours which is why he recommends taking in all of your calories post workout and then starting your fast the end of the next day leading up to our workout that following day.

It's so confusing when we normally think of calorie intake in a 24 hour period and now it gets shifted.. lol..

Clifford Gillmore
10-08-2009, 09:48 PM
Errr.... I couldn't do it. PSMF is about as far as I'm willing to go...

Invain
10-09-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't see why it wouldn't work, everything looks spot on. Ryuge on here was doing it for a while if you wanna find his journal.

I've never looked for any actual studies done on muscle breakdown in a short period of fasting like 24 hours, but I wouldn't think it'd be that substantial. You're pretty much fasting all night when you sleep, and if you don't eat right before bed you can go 12+ hours without food pretty easy. I don't see how another 12 would result in that much more muscle loss. Obviously you'll be catabolic the whole time but slamming the cals and carbs on the days when you lift should more than make up for it.

galileo
10-10-2009, 09:31 AM
You read my journal right?

bigman123
10-10-2009, 11:18 AM
New guy chiming in. SOrry I haven't even introduced myself yet, but Shae Sent me over here.

I have been doing IF now for over 3 months and love it. Here is my stats and Schedule.

25 years old
260 15% BF(down from 295 23%)
6'2"

I had to cut my cals way back because I just had Rotator Surgery but you can see my schedule tho. I also Feel a million times better and I was still getting stronger until my surgery.

Schedule

Cals 2500
Fat 120g
Carbs 100g
Prot 215 g

Monday 1.5x cals Until 9pm
Tuesday only Water. NO CARBS NO FOOD
Wednesday 2x cals. Start at 9am to 9pm
Thursday only Water. NO CARBS NO FOOD
Friday 2x cals. Start at 9am to 9pm
Saturday Regular cals only between 5-9pm
Sunday same as Saturday.

This has worked wonders for me because I can actually cheat every other day and still lose fat. I was running 5x5 advanced on M W F. Your fat will drip off. I am in love. Fasting SUCKS for the 1st two weeks. But it gets better as you go on. Any questions hit me up.

Skalami
10-12-2009, 07:42 AM
Wow this seems crazy i just couldnt do it...

borracho
10-12-2009, 09:11 AM
New guy chiming in. SOrry I haven't even introduced myself yet, but Shae Sent me over here.

I have been doing IF now for over 3 months and love it. Here is my stats and Schedule....

Jakes schedule looks complicated (after re-reading it...its not..I am just slooow. Yours (bigman123) looks simple but it looks like Jakes takes into account for PWO nutrition through to the next day whereas you fast the day after your workouts (which are T/TH/S if I read correctly since you w/o MWF).

What is the better method?

JSully
10-12-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm glad someone else has had good results with something similar. Thanks for the input bigman.

risk- this is a bit easier than PSMF IMO. 4000+ cals over a 30 hour window then fasting for 18-20hours including sleep time is much easier than 1400cals of ONLY protein for 11 days straigh. PSMF is fantastic for jumpstarting a cut though, or catching you up if you fall behind.

borracho- I'm not sure who's would be better to tell you the truth. I read the threads over on Lyle's boards and he suggested to do it this way (what I have proposed) because of an upregulation in protein synthesis after training. Protein synthesis is increased for up to 36 hours post workout so he suggests that it is more beneficial to fast before training (until your pre-workout meal) then slam the calories for 24-28hours afterwards and start your fast again then.

I'm going to give it a shot starting the 19th and see how it fits. I do like bigman's suggestion of 1.5x cals though. I might implement this as it definately make sense. If I'm eating for 28-30hours (including sleep) then hitting a 20-22hour fast afterwards, it would make sense to do 1.25x cals to make up for the difference. I'll definately take this into consideration.

borracho
10-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Thanks Jake...I guess your method makes more sense to me as far as the protein upreg stuff...but it is interesting that bigman has had good results with his method too....guess it'll take experimenting on my part to decide which is better for me.

Were mood swings a factor for you guys? I've noticed I am a cranky little bastard until I eat...

ryuage
10-12-2009, 01:08 PM
still haven't gotten the diet part down yet jake? ;)

JSully
10-12-2009, 01:36 PM
still haven't gotten the diet part down yet jake? ;)

lol, aren't you back from the dead?

No, I've got it down. Now I need to figure out how to do it while still getting stronger.

ryuage
10-12-2009, 01:41 PM
i'd say to ditch IF, eat normally throughout the day at a small deficit and lift heavy (low reps of course)

just comes down to what you want more (the fat loss or maintenance of strength)

bigman123
10-12-2009, 01:48 PM
Sorry I am getting here so late. I think it comes down to your schedule. I workout in the morning, so that is why i do what I do. It makes a ton of sence to cram most of your cals/Carbs in after your workout and throughout the day.

I have never had any mood swings on this diet, compared ot Keto, and or carb cycling. Just works better for me. It really allows you to clear your head as well. Kinda nice to clean out your body every other day or so. And before I ripped my rotator My strength was still going up. Just my 2 cents. hope it helps

borracho
10-12-2009, 03:04 PM
That does make sense. I guess if I wanted to give this a go I'd either have to go with something like Jake has or change my workout schedule cause now I am doing m/w/f in the late afternoon/early evenings...I think I am going to start experimenting with this.

JSully
10-12-2009, 03:27 PM
I train in the early mornings on saturday and sunday, then I train in the evenings on tuesday and thursday so this is what works for me.

If you train m/w/f you could IF m/w/f until your pre-workout shake, then consume 1.5x cals or so until the following night at 8-9p and then eat under maintenance like a normal day on sunday, or even IF with some lower calories (depending on your goals) on sunday and eat from 6-9pm or so..

borracho
10-12-2009, 09:06 PM
So are there any tricks to getting through the first week of fasting? Coffee? Flavored water?

VikingWarlord
10-12-2009, 09:36 PM
So are there any tricks to getting through the first week of fasting? Coffee? Flavored water?

Tapering down is really the best way to go. Slowly start to concentrate your intake and drink plenty of water. Decide what your feed window is going to be and cut down by an hour or so every day until you reach where you want to be. I also found that a bunch of home brewed green tea helped quite a bit. I'd go through about half a gallon per day.

As for your question about the better method, I've had good luck with thinking about it in 24 hour periods as opposed to 48 hour periods like Jake is. I'll usually concentrate my intake between 6p-9p (sometimes 10p) but I've been doing it long enough that altering the schedule doesn't leave me feeling like hell. It's also easy to take a day off for a special event or something and then jump back into it.

You really won't know what'll work better until you try it. Both have their benefits and both work well, as long as you do them right.

On Nov 1, I'm going to start an IF-PSMF using the 3 hour window and run it to Thanksgiving just because I don't hate my life quite enough as it is.

JSully
10-12-2009, 09:54 PM
IF-PSMF is WAY easier than straight up PSMF, IMO..

lol, lots of acronyms there.. I did that last year with good results, except for the massive drop in bench strength..

I agree.. ease into it. When I experimented with IF last year I started out with 14 hrs, then 16 hrs, then 18hrs then 20 then 22.. you get used to it and it's really simple. Trying to jump right into 20 hours though would be hell..

borracho
10-12-2009, 09:58 PM
On Nov 1, I'm going to start an IF-PSMF using the 3 hour window and run it to Thanksgiving just because I don't hate my life quite enough as it is.

Awesome.


Thanks for the info fellers...I greatly appreciate it.

borracho
10-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Trying to jump right into 20 hours though would be hell..

Yea..I didnt see myself being successful with it if that were the case..easing in to it will be the key for me I think. Were you able to gain strength doing this last year or was it more maintenance?

VikingWarlord
10-12-2009, 10:12 PM
IF-PSMF is WAY easier than straight up PSMF, IMO..

That's the main reason I decided to do it like that. It seems like it'd suck less. It still sucks, but just sucks less.

JSully
10-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Yea..I didnt see myself being successful with it if that were the case..easing in to it will be the key for me I think. Were you able to gain strength doing this last year or was it more maintenance?
No, I lost a bunch of strenght, however, I was doing IF-PSMF with 22hrs fasting and 2hrs eating. I maintained all of my size, however, strength plummetted pretty bad. Not because of IF, but because of 1400-1600cals/day for weeks on end. I just wanted to drop bodyfat fast and wasn't too worried about strength. I got down to 225 at around 11% bodyfat before finally calling it quits.


That's the main reason I decided to do it like that. It seems like it'd suck less. It still sucks, but just sucks less.
agree. PSMF will suck regardless.. however, cramming 1600cals into 2 hours will make it suck alot less.. lol

Bravo
10-13-2009, 01:07 PM
I've done RFL or PSMF numerous times, and also 3 cycles on UD2 in the past, so I know that I have no problems restricting calories. I haven't been very serious about lifting in over 3 years. Let's say I've been bordering on alcoholism for some time. IF seems quite interesting to me as the fasting part of it fits in nicely with a period of purifying clarification. Mental and physiological. The structure of this diet appeals to me in an almost spiritual way. I've somewhat retained a good bit of my former strength through my sporadic visits to the gym. My question is, if I set it up for 3x a week full body, lets say tue, thu, and sat, would it be more beneficial to do a 48hr cycle as per Jake's suggestion, or a 20/4. The question may seem redundant. Fat loss is a priority. I'd assume that I'm near 15-18% or so just by experience and knowing my body. I'd also like some input on caloric levels that I should be running on the refeeds in both a 24 hour and a 48 hour structure. Perhaps a formula based on LBM? There doesn't seem to be much out there on these diets. I also have a pair of Accumeasure plastic calipers, but I seem to have lost the chart. If anyone can provide me with a copy, or at least help me to read the damn things, It would be much appreciated.

Christian, I checked out your journal. Pretty interesting. It seems to be going well. Keep it up. Once I get set up, I think keeping a journal here may help with adherence.

Bravo
10-14-2009, 12:37 AM
My current goal is not to get big, but to change my lifestyle and recomp my physique. I decided to go with a more standard 20/4 with my workout occuring within the window tue/thu/sat. I need help setting up macros.

I'm 6'1", 198lbs with 18%bf. A mere shadow of my former self. That gives me a LBM of around 162.

What caloric level should I be running during the window, and how should I break it up macro-wise.

The only supplements I'm interested in are fish oil caps, multi, and some protein powder shakes with dextrose.

JSully
10-14-2009, 01:04 AM
My current goal is not to get big, but to change my lifestyle and recomp my physique. I decided to go with a more standard 20/4 with my workout occuring within the window tue/thu/sat. I need help setting up macros.

I'm 6'1", 198lbs with 18%bf. A mere shadow of my former self. That gives me a LBM of around 162.

What caloric level should I be running during the window, and how should I break it up macro-wise.

The only supplements I'm interested in are fish oil caps, multi, and some protein powder shakes with dextrose.

That's a good decision. I was going to suggest a 20/4 since you are interested primarily in fatloss. I'm going the 48hr route so that I can attempt to reap the benefits of post-workout nutrition and protein synthesis while in an overall weekly deficit.

As far as your caloric level, that's very difficult to figure out. Maybe try starting with 2500cals/day. Take your LBM and multiply times 1.5 = approx 250g protein. 1/2g per lb LBM of fat = approx 85g fat. The rest would be carbs at approx 185g.

I only use supplement with fish oil, protein, creatine, multi and dextrose/malto pre&post workout.

I suggest 50-75g carbs pre and post workout, leaving you with about 15-85g carbs left over for your eating period. I did what you are referring to last year with great results and even kept LBM, however, strength dropped quite a bit. I refuse to sacrifice strength at this time so that's why I'm doing a 48 hour protocol with higher cals for my recovery.

If you find yourself dropping too quickly, add some calories. If you find you aren't dropping at all, drop cals.

Bravo
10-14-2009, 03:37 AM
Sounds pretty straight forward. I appreciate your help. Looking over the kcal and macro amounts I may go for a 21/3 as the pre and PWO shakes together will amount to nearly 900kcal, 2500 kcal in 3 hours sounds pretty satisfying, and the fasting period begins sooner.

So, to recap, I drink preWO shake at 6pm, workout, drink a PWO shake afterwards, proceed to consume the rest of my calories/fish oil/multi until 9pm. Rinse and repeat.

Are non-caloric beverages allowed during the fasting phase? Green tea, coffee, diet sodas... I'm assuming so. What types of carbs should be preferred on rest days?