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xolix
10-27-2009, 03:02 PM
i used 4 years westside training for raw bench with very good results (365 paused bench) . i trained in the past months with the 5/3/1 program and my bench went down a bit ... i tried a max bench after 4 months and it was 20 pounds weaker than with my old westside routine .

now i am ready with my first 4 weeks westside and my bench was very very off today ...only 315 x 1 !! it was weaker than before ... my routine looks like this :

week 1 : 2boardpress 1 rm
week 2 : chainbench 1 rm
week 3 : floorpress 1 rm
week 4 : paused bench 1 rm

after mainmovement 2 sets db bench , 2 sets 3boardpress (5rm) , lats , shoulderhorn, hammer curls

speed day 8 x 3 bench (2 weeks bands/ 2 weeks straight/ 2 weeks chains ...)
barbell shoulderpresses , barbell rows , push downs or extensions

my deadlift and my squats are better than ever with 5/3/1 !!! hit 585 x 8 raw deadlift and 455 x 10 on squats ..

any thoughts ??

slashkills
10-27-2009, 03:13 PM
Where do you get stuck if you fail a max attempt?
How much do you weigh?
how many cals a day do you get?
how many grams of protein per day do you get?

maybe try mixing up your accessory work to things you havent done before. Make sure on your DE day your truly moving the weight fast or that will effect your ME day.
Or try and throw in an RE day once in a while in place of DE day. Just changing small things could spark progression again.

xolix
10-27-2009, 03:25 PM
bwt is 245 and my food is good , a lot of calories and protein and my lower body is stronger than ever ...

i stuck in the middle like the most lifters . i hit it with 4 exercises , which is different to bench only (5/3/1)

slashkills
10-27-2009, 03:31 PM
the only advice i can offer is just try and change up the lifts you do often. Maybe do a set of assistance exercises for two weeks and switch. That change could help you out.

NickAus
10-27-2009, 03:46 PM
I would swap the 3 board for floor press reps as I think they will carry over better to your raw bench (throw the 3 board in every now and then).

As far as sticking points go I don't even know what mine is (guess about 3 or 4 board height in the shirt) I just try to get stronger all over, more explosive and always work on better technique.

IMO to many people are always looking for sticking points to fix rather than just getting stronger and faster.

Your routine looks pretty good to me just be sure to mix up the movements and be mentally strong and focused- this is what matters most.

Lones Green
10-27-2009, 03:54 PM
I think the answer is simple; if what you did when your max was 365 worked, why change it? Its like trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Go back to Westside and keep at it until that doesn't work anymore.

xolix
10-27-2009, 04:22 PM
thanks for answers , anybody out there with better raw bench with 5/3/1 program than with westside ? or why is my upper body different than my lower body with jims program ?

cns training vs. slowly progression :confused:

to many with's ^^

douglasoh5
10-27-2009, 04:28 PM
i really dont see how your raw bench has gone down doing the 531....My raw bench has gone up 50lbs and my shirted the same in 5 months....are there any other factors going on your not telling us....any btw changes? new job? turn into an alcoholic? any sudden change in your life can cause your lifts to go in the hole even though you think your training is on key.

NickAus
10-27-2009, 04:29 PM
Your raw bench was prob better on westside because you were training speed, that's why I like w.s you cover everything in your training.

xolix
10-27-2009, 04:40 PM
i really dont see how your raw bench has gone down doing the 531....My raw bench has gone up 50lbs and my shirted the same in 5 months....are there any other factors going on your not telling us....any btw changes? new job? turn into an alcoholic? any sudden change in your life can cause your lifts to go in the hole even though you think your training is on key.

my best rep pr's was in the first cycle, every month i have 5 pounds more and 1 or more reps less and after 4 cycles i had a full raw meet where the 340 felt heavier than ever , because this was the first time i hold those weight in my hands after 3 or 4 months , because training always with lighter weights in this program... when i was on westside i had most of the time heavier weights than my raw bench with those max effort movements , thats why the big q for me is : is it better to me to work progressive with reps or hit max pr's and train my cns and speed ...

my life is not different now ...

Darracq
10-27-2009, 04:55 PM
I am tring to decide between the 2 programs myself, when i did the 5,3,1 i hit a lot of rep rps but didnt hit a max like i though i would, but i think if i would of stayed on it i would of eventually. If your stayed in the higher reps i think it would be hard to get a new max as you havent been dealing with max weight.

NickAus
10-27-2009, 04:57 PM
my best rep pr's was in the first cycle, every month i have 5 pounds more and 1 or more reps less and after 4 cycles i had a full raw meet where the 340 felt heavier than ever , because this was the first time i hold those weight in my hands after 3 or 4 months , because training always with lighter weights in this program... when i was on westside i had most of the time heavier weights than my raw bench with those max effort movements , thats why the big q for me is : is it better to me to work progressive with reps or hit max pr's and train my cns and speed ...

my life is not different now ...

I say train w.s-cns training, rep training, speed training you can do it all.

robchris
10-27-2009, 06:21 PM
x,
I can relate... I did 5-3-1 for a while and my bench was stagnite. I didnt lose strength however, but I just maintained.

Conversely, my DL & Squat lbs. increased nicely...?

IDK, but like Nick said as soon as I went back to WSB w/ the speed training my bench started moving again!

Also, are you DELOADING every 4th week?(40-50-60% 1rm) You didnt mention so in your post... That could be the culprit!!! Very important man!

xolix
10-28-2009, 01:12 AM
x,
I can relate... I did 5-3-1 for a while and my bench was stagnite. I didnt lose strength however, but I just maintained.

Conversely, my DL & Squat lbs. increased nicely...?

IDK, but like Nick said as soon as I went back to WSB w/ the speed training my bench started moving again!

Also, are you DELOADING every 4th week?(40-50-60% 1rm) You didnt mention so in your post... That could be the culprit!!! Very important man!

sure, i deload every 4th week with 5-3-1 ...

nickp8
10-28-2009, 11:29 AM
A common problem is using percentages off of a max that was set too high. To get the best results for bench on the 5/3/1 you need to start really low. When I started 5/3/1 my max bench was 365 and the training max I used for percentages was 315. After about 5 cycles when my training max got up to 340 I reset it to 320 and started over. As previously posted the deload is extremely important. As for accessory movements if you go heavy with them after you hit a rep max you can end up getting overtrained fast. This is all stuff that helped me on the other hand it just might not be the program for you, if you get great results doing other stuff keep doing whatever that is.

Darracq
10-28-2009, 11:47 AM
A common problem is using percentages off of a max that was set too high. To get the best results for bench on the 5/3/1 you need to start really low. When I started 5/3/1 my max bench was 365 and the training max I used for percentages was 315. After about 5 cycles when my training max got up to 340 I reset it to 320 and started over. As previously posted the deload is extremely important. As for accessory movements if you go heavy with them after you hit a rep max you can end up getting overtrained fast. This is all stuff that helped me on the other hand it just might not be the program for you, if you get great results doing other stuff keep doing whatever that is.

So are you saying your max went down to 340 after 5 cycles or you just used 340 for your percentages?how much has your max went up.

douglasoh5
10-28-2009, 11:54 AM
since the 531 work for 1 cycle why not do your normal westside stuff for 2-3 months then throw a month of 531 and repeat....and yes you do want to subtract 10% from your true max to use for your stuff

nickp8
10-28-2009, 12:10 PM
I just used the 340 for my percentages. My max is 395 right now, so 30lbs. in 8 months. I also lost 12lbs during this time i went from 255 to 243.

barbell01
10-28-2009, 12:38 PM
why are you still even thinking about 5/3/1?????? it sounds like a disaster for you.... do what works, lift heavy stuff.

NickAus
10-28-2009, 03:46 PM
why are you still even thinking about 5/3/1?????? it sounds like a disaster for you.... do what works, lift heavy stuff.

This.

xolix
10-29-2009, 01:02 PM
I just used the 340 for my percentages. My max is 395 right now, so 30lbs. in 8 months. I also lost 12lbs during this time i went from 255 to 243.

very good !! how was or is your assistance work for bench-and militaryday ?
how was your training before 5/3/1 ? westside , bb or western periodation ?

i think its a big difference when you change from a bb like routine to 531 ...perhaps

nickp8
10-29-2009, 01:18 PM
very good !! how was or is your assistance work for bench-and militaryday ?
how was your training before 5/3/1 ? westside , bb or western periodation ?

i think its a big difference when you change from a bb like routine to 531 ...perhaps

Bench Day
5/3/1/ bench
Incline DB Press 5x10
Pull Ups 5x10
DB Rows 3x15
Band Pushdowns 2x50

Military/Deadlift Day
Military 5/3/1/
Deadlift 5/3/1
Heavy Db Rows 4x5
Shoulder Raise super sets w/ DB Curls 3x12

Before I started 5/3/1 I was using Defranco's Westside for Skinny Bastards. I have never used a bodybuilding style routine so I don't know how big of a difference there would be.

xolix
10-29-2009, 02:50 PM
Before I started 5/3/1 I was using Defranco's Westside for Skinny Bastards. I have never used a bodybuilding style routine so I don't know how big of a difference there would be.

ok... and why you changed ? stucking at wsfsb ? thanks for answer

nickp8
10-30-2009, 12:25 AM
My gains were coming along real slow in the end because I have been doing that program for almost 7 years. Defranco used to be one of my trainers before he went on his own and I had awesome results on it but like I said I have been doing it forever. I just needed a change and 5/3/1 just seemed to be the best fit.