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sandcracker21
11-13-2009, 11:32 AM
well i just finished my second wave of wendlers 531 doing the boring but big template...

now i was on a 5x5 program previously, and i did 315 5x5 on squats last....this cycle of 531 required me to do 320 x 1 (as many times as i can get) AND I COULD ONLY DO IT TWICE!! it felt imposible heavy!!


did i get weaker??? why is this happening?? it feels like my deads are getting better, bench and press are harder to tell

nickp8
11-13-2009, 11:43 AM
That much of a difference in 2 months is very odd, it sounds like something else is wrong. If you were able to do 25 total reps with 315lbs. and now are only able to do 2 total reps you may be overtrained or maybe your diet has fallen off. You might have been going to heavy on our secondary squats. Post what you have been doing with weights, it will be easier to see whats going on.

sandcracker21
11-13-2009, 12:06 PM
well here was my last 531 day for squats

5 x 250
3 x 290
1 (2) x 320

i then do 5 x 10 at 185 on squats then do 3 x 10 heavy lunges and 5 x 10 medium intensity goodmornings

geoffsherman
11-13-2009, 12:07 PM
It sounds odd. What is the 1 RM you used when you started? And ca you confirm that you took 90% of that number and plugged it in.

sandcracker21
11-13-2009, 12:13 PM
yes, my true max (no calculators) was 365 and i took 90% of it for this program

nickp8
11-13-2009, 12:27 PM
Did you change your diet or up your cardio or anything that would put more stress on your body?

sandcracker21
11-13-2009, 01:19 PM
well i hardly do cardio...i hate it so much im lucky if i run every other week for 20 mins


as far as diet i HAVE been eating a little less, my weight dropped down to 205 with 13% bf from being about 215 with about 15% bf ...would this make that much of a difference?

nickp8
11-13-2009, 01:46 PM
Just to make sure you said you did 5 sets of 5 with 315, so 25 total reps with 315 and now you can only do 2? If you made a mistake by writing 5x5 with 315 and meant 1 set of 5 I can see the decrease in strength with the change in bodyweight and changing of programs. If you didn't make a mistake I don't know what to tell you I have never seen anything like it.

endymion88
11-13-2009, 01:54 PM
i had alot of trouble when i started my squatting on 531 since i was so used to low reps my 1rm was 500 and i took 90% of it and it was still just too much for me to rep so i dropped it another 5 % so maybe reset it at 85%

nickp8
11-13-2009, 02:10 PM
But the reps and the volume shouldn't be a problem for him if he was doing
5x5 with 315lbs.

joelhall
11-13-2009, 02:13 PM
what accessory exercises are you doing for legs with this? could be that where the trouble is starting (overtraining/over reaching etc).

geoffsherman
11-13-2009, 03:17 PM
No offense, but this is shady....

LuNa
11-13-2009, 03:18 PM
what accessory exercises are you doing for legs with this? could be that where the trouble is starting (overtraining/over reaching etc).

I agree with this. The "Boring but Big" template is pretty intense, especially if you put a bit of weight on the accessory moves. Maybe drop down the weight on the accessory lifts or reduce the volume. They are just accessory lifts, they shouldnt detract from the main lifts.

-JM-
11-13-2009, 03:52 PM
OP how many times are you squatting a week?

I am thinking with the 5x5 you were squatting 2 maybe 3 times per week?

IMHO you just need to be under the bar more. Squat again on DL day too or something. Front squats or wide stance box squats. That will get you squatting more and will help your DL into the bargain.

hoot
11-13-2009, 08:37 PM
OP how many times are you squatting a week?

I am thinking with the 5x5 you were squatting 2 maybe 3 times per week?

IMHO you just need to be under the bar more. Squat again on DL day too or something. Front squats or wide stance box squats. That will get you squatting more and will help your DL into the bargain.

this is what i do and feel much stronger. i do my deadlift accessories (light deads or rack pulls) 5x10 and curls or pullthroughs 3x10 after my 5/3/1 squat sets. I do squat accessories (back squat or front squat) 5x10 and gm 3x10 after 5/3/1 deadlifting. It's actually 5/3/1 w/ westside. you have a ME day and DE days.

huskybear
11-13-2009, 10:54 PM
well here was my last 531 day for squats

5 x 250
3 x 290
1 (2) x 320

i then do 5 x 10 at 185 on squats then do 3 x 10 heavy lunges and 5 x 10 medium intensity goodmornings

I think this may be the problem... too much volume and work after you do the 5x10 squats... normally this is followed by 5x10 of leg curls... all that extra work is likely the culprit I think

Good luck figuring this out... Boring But Big FTW!!!! great program, I'm loving it myself... :clap:

sandcracker21
11-13-2009, 11:40 PM
I think this may be the problem... too much volume and work after you do the 5x10 squats... normally this is followed by 5x10 of leg curls... all that extra work is likely the culprit I think

Good luck figuring this out... Boring But Big FTW!!!! great program, I'm loving it myself... :clap:

i was giving this thought....and i also considered my decreased diet as the culprit too....

BUT I CANT STAND LEG CURLS!!!!

i feel i need good mornings to hit my hamstrings a little harder, and lunges are such a bitch of a hard lift...

the thing is my deads are continuing to climb and my bench and OH press arnt suffering?? they are climbing but very very slowly (to be expected)

squats just got very very heavy all of a sudden


ps. in my 5x5 routine i took my sweet ass time between sets and reps even, this routine i have been 'cleaning' myself up forcing myself to go quicker....but that shouldnt make much of a difference? should it?

LuNa
11-14-2009, 03:40 AM
ps. in my 5x5 routine i took my sweet ass time between sets and reps even, this routine i have been 'cleaning' myself up forcing myself to go quicker....but that shouldnt make much of a difference? should it?

It deffinitely can. Its actually quite an important detail you forgot to mentiond. I would say, increase rest periods and see what happens. If it doesnt help, decrease the extra leg work. You dont have to do leg curls. I only do a couple of sets of Romanian deadlifts after my 5x10 squats.

huskybear
11-14-2009, 11:18 AM
It deffinitely can. Its actually quite an important detail you forgot to mentiond. I would say, increase rest periods and see what happens. If it doesnt help, decrease the extra leg work. You dont have to do leg curls. I only do a couple of sets of Romanian deadlifts after my 5x10 squats.

I agree with Luna here... decrease the extra leg work and use what you think is a hamstring exercise for yourself... if the lunges are that hard, then the extra work is taking away from total recovery for you I think... and the decreased diet and push on decreased rest all have significant impacts...

-JM-
11-14-2009, 11:32 AM
Sandcracker,

That is not the BBB template.

Isnt BBB squat, then squat and done. You are squatting, then squatting again (BBB) then following up with assistance exercises similar to the triumvirate template.

Choose one or the other. I still think you could do with squatting again on a different day.

huskybear
11-14-2009, 12:07 PM
Sandcracker,

That is not the BBB template.

Isnt BBB squat, then squat and done. You are squatting, then squatting again (BBB) then following up with assistance exercises similar to the triumvirate template.

Choose one or the other. I still think you could do with squatting again on a different day.

it's squat, then squat then leg curl.

I think that as Wendler has stated, when you mess with the template, you mess up your results... this has been my experience too

LuNa
11-14-2009, 04:12 PM
it's squat, then squat then leg curl.

I think that as Wendler has stated, when you mess with the template, you mess up your results... this has been my experience too

I guess replacing the leg curl with another hamstring dominant exercise (Romanian deadlifts for example) shouldnt have that big of an impact.

Wendler said in his book that most people do too much. So cut down and reevaluate. Thats the beauty of the cycles, you can readjust for every cycle untill you find what works best.

ScottYard
11-14-2009, 06:59 PM
2 Months isnt enough time for a program. Lower you % a little and start over. Give it 3 months then re-evaluate.

barbell01
11-14-2009, 07:40 PM
if you want to lift heavier weight then you shoud lift heavier weight.

sandcracker21
11-15-2009, 12:25 PM
if you want to lift heavier weight then you shoud lift heavier weight.

wow, thank you for the incredible insight....you are so wise and smart, it is so simple now, i was just able to squat 5000 lbs with this new incredible advise you have given me

:bang:

barbell01
11-15-2009, 03:01 PM
wow, thank you for the incredible insight....you are so wise and smart, it is so simple now, i was just able to squat 5000 lbs with this new incredible advise you have given me

:bang:

i know, it's really that simple, if you want to squat more then get under more weight, stop using rep maxes to determine your 1rep max. 531 is not a good way to train your CNS and core for raising your 1 rep max. dont train for a 500 lb. squat with submaximal weights DUDE. jim wendler has squatted over a 1000 lbs. he has been under that weight. and he don't compete so why use his program? i am in no way saying that it is a bad program but he sure as hell didnt train 531 when he squatted 1000lbs now did he.....:moon:

LuNa
11-15-2009, 08:33 PM
i know, it's really that simple, if you want to squat more then get under more weight, stop using rep maxes to determine your 1rep max. 531 is not a good way to train your CNS and core for raising your 1 rep max. dont train for a 500 lb. squat with submaximal weights DUDE. jim wendler has squatted over a 1000 lbs. he has been under that weight. and he don't compete so why use his program? i am in no way saying that it is a bad program but he sure as hell didnt train 531 when he squatted 1000lbs now did he.....:moon:

Its an interesting point you are raising, seeing as Wendler himself stated in the book that you dont need to lift your 1 rep max to get stronger. In my opinion, increase a specific weight from 3 reps max to 9 reps means you have gotten stronger, which in results leads to a higher 1RM.

I understand what you are saying. The weight from your 1RM feels a lot different than the weight you are repping 9 times, but someone that is preparing for a meet should use some acclimation to get used to that, 1RM weight. You dont just put on gear and expect 200lbs out of it now do you.

Cmanuel
11-16-2009, 09:43 AM
i know, it's really that simple, if you want to squat more then get under more weight, stop using rep maxes to determine your 1rep max. 531 is not a good way to train your CNS and core for raising your 1 rep max. dont train for a 500 lb. squat with submaximal weights DUDE. jim wendler has squatted over a 1000 lbs. he has been under that weight. and he don't compete so why use his program? i am in no way saying that it is a bad program but he sure as hell didnt train 531 when he squatted 1000lbs now did he.....:moon:

He was also geared and fat.
For what its worth, my squat and deadlift have gone up significantly during my first 3 cycles of 531. 20+ lbs on both lifts. That's proof enough for me that it works very well for what its intended for: increasing the raw lifts.

barbell01
11-16-2009, 10:38 AM
He was also geared and fat.
For what its worth, my squat and deadlift have gone up significantly during my first 3 cycles of 531. 20+ lbs on both lifts. That's proof enough for me that it works very well for what its intended for: increasing the raw lifts.

you don't think training westside or something like that where you set pr's in different pressing movements RAW if you want using max effort won't increase your 1rm unless you are geared and fat??????? like i said, 531 is great but if your wondering why old maxes feel really heavy then just think about what i said. do what you want but it's a forum and i think that i make a valid point, geared or fat or whatever. plenty of guys under 200lbs. have squatted 900+ or even 1000+ and i guarantee they dont use 531 and i guarantee although they used gear that they can squat more then most using only a belt. just sayin.......

thewicked
11-16-2009, 11:01 AM
just like any other program..it works for some and doesn't for others.


as far as I'm concerned my bench has gone up 50lbs in less than half a year... I use it, train it, and love it.

It has also helped my deadlift out and as far as cns work goes..it definately allows you to do plenty of heavy lifting without overloading it like like most WSB templates tend to do for the average/intermediate lifter. More and more raw lifters of all experience levels are using it and loving it.

Barbaccio
11-16-2009, 11:47 AM
barbell, I'm going to completely disagree with you on one point and agree on another. I've done 531. I've also totalled 2400. I've "been under the weight" in gear as well as raw.

First, the program works. If it's not working you're either working with too high of a max, you've changed something, or you haven't read the book. This program will get you STRONG. NO DOUBT. Every single guy I have on the program has seen an increase in strength and size including myself. We had one guy just recently do a raw meet who went from an 800 total @ 148 to 1000 in a matter of 3 months doing 531. So the CNS argument doesn't hold weight with me.

Secondly, if you're a GEARED lifter, this program will not do ANYTHING for your geared lifts. When you're talking about raw lifting, you don't need to "train the CNS". Your body can handle what your body can handle. End of story. However, when you bring gear into the equation, you're lifting above and beyond what you would be able to handle naturally. Here is where I agree with barbell01. In gear, you need to have that weight on your back. You need to get under it and feel it. This is the part where 531 breaks down.

I did 3 cycles of 531. It's in my log. My strength when through the roof. So why'd I change? Because my geared lifts sucked. I need to find a balance of strength training WITH geared training. One without the other fails. If you're a raw lifter, stick to the program, work your ass off, and don't **** around with what works. If you're a geared lifter, stay the hell away from this unless you're doing a cycle post-meet.

barbell01
11-16-2009, 11:58 AM
barbell, I'm going to completely disagree with you on one point and agree on another. I've done 531. I've also totalled 2400. I've "been under the weight" in gear as well as raw.

First, the program works. If it's not working you're either working with too high of a max, you've changed something, or you haven't read the book. This program will get you STRONG. NO DOUBT. Every single guy I have on the program has seen an increase in strength and size including myself. We had one guy just recently do a raw meet who went from an 800 total @ 148 to 1000 in a matter of 3 months doing 531. So the CNS argument doesn't hold weight with me.

Secondly, if you're a GEARED lifter, this program will not do ANYTHING for your geared lifts. When you're talking about raw lifting, you don't need to "train the CNS". Your body can handle what your body can handle. End of story. However, when you bring gear into the equation, you're lifting above and beyond what you would be able to handle naturally. Here is where I agree with barbell01. In gear, you need to have that weight on your back. You need to get under it and feel it. This is the part where 531 breaks down.

I did 3 cycles of 531. It's in my log. My strength when through the roof. So why'd I change? Because my geared lifts sucked. I need to find a balance of strength training WITH geared training. One without the other fails. If you're a raw lifter, stick to the program, work your ass off, and don't **** around with what works. If you're a geared lifter, stay the hell away from this unless you're doing a cycle post-meet.

thank you for chiming in, i like to hear valid arguements, ecspecially when you know first hand. much better then just saying that he was "fat and geared". LOL

Cmanuel
11-16-2009, 01:12 PM
thank you for chiming in, i like to hear valid arguements, ecspecially when you know first hand. much better then just saying that he was "fat and geared". LOL

I was going to chime in and elaborate on my comment, but barbaccio basically said everything I was going to say. Basically, you were arguing that Wendler squatted 1000 lbs and wasnt doing 5-3-1, and using him as an argument against 5-3-1 for maximal efforts. I was trying to get the point across that 5-3-1 isnt designed for geared lifting cycle
And I can call him fat because he was lol. Wendler has stated he got out of powerlifting because he was fat and out of shape, which lead to 5-3-1.