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arctic
11-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm following a carb cycling article I found on BB.com. The basic layout is a 3 day cycle consisting of a High, Low and No Carb day.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par30.htm (mod feel free to remove link if not allowed)


What are you're thoughts on eating a piece of fruit (restore glycogen stores) before eating a high carb meal on the high carb day?

How soon before a meal do you eat the fruit?

Any tablet/pill like fructose supplements our there that can substitute the fruit?

Deusomega
11-17-2009, 08:02 PM
You're over analyzing. If you want to follow the article's advice and method of setting up the carb cycle then just follow its directions. He says have a piece of fruit... sooo... have a piece! Why use a supplement that would simulate the effects of just eating good ole fruit? Btw your body doesn't instantly absorb food and instantly digest it. So timing is another example of over analyzing. For more read Lyle Mcdonald's free material and read the article on this website entitled Nutrient Timing- When Science and Marketing Collide.

Quick Key Point: How you split your food and when you take it comes a distant second to hitting your daily total. Because you’re human and you have a digestive system, there’ll nearly always be an overlap between what you ate hours ago and what you’re about to eat now. The good news is that our bodies take care of the sophisticated nutrient timing all by themselves.

Invain
11-17-2009, 10:23 PM
I would avoid fructose on refeed days, unless it's eaten right before a workout. There is no reason to refill liver glycogen first unless you're exercising. Also, fructose is not healthy like so many believe. If you want an insulin spike eat something like dextrose instead.

Deusomega
11-18-2009, 06:24 AM
I would avoid fructose on refeed days, unless it's eaten right before a workout. There is no reason to refill liver glycogen first unless you're exercising. Also, fructose is not healthy like so many believe. If you want an insulin spike eat something like dextrose instead.

He's utilizing carb cycling which in of itself is fairly advanced, so I would go out on a limb and assume he will be lifting or exercising. :confused::confused:

Also if you read the article you would see that he included a post workout nutrition section:

"Post-workout Nutrition
While bodybuilders and non-bodybuilders can use this diet, most of us reading this perform some form of resistance training. For those that do, I assume you have a "typical" post-workout protocol, so I'll just give some basics. In conjunction with the Basic Plan (with fat loss being the goal), I recommend, at a minimum, between 30 and 50 grams of whey protein.

This can be a protein only meal, and then followed by a carb meal on carb days, or can be taken with oatmeal (or another carb from the list) on carb days. On no carb days, obviously you'd just be having the whey. When using this diet to cut, we are not looking to create a post-workout insulin spike. However, a pure ectomorph looking to cut should probably consider it (by adding 30-50 grams of dextrose and/or maltodextrin). "

Invain
11-18-2009, 08:38 AM
He's utilizing carb cycling which in of itself is fairly advanced, so I would go out on a limb and assume he will be lifting or exercising. :confused::confused:

Also if you read the article you would see that he included a post workout nutrition section:

"Post-workout Nutrition
While bodybuilders and non-bodybuilders can use this diet, most of us reading this perform some form of resistance training. For those that do, I assume you have a "typical" post-workout protocol, so I'll just give some basics. In conjunction with the Basic Plan (with fat loss being the goal), I recommend, at a minimum, between 30 and 50 grams of whey protein.

This can be a protein only meal, and then followed by a carb meal on carb days, or can be taken with oatmeal (or another carb from the list) on carb days. On no carb days, obviously you'd just be having the whey. When using this diet to cut, we are not looking to create a post-workout insulin spike. However, a pure ectomorph looking to cut should probably consider it (by adding 30-50 grams of dextrose and/or maltodextrin). "

I know he lifts weights, why else would be be posting on this site? When I said exercising, I meant there is no point in eating much fructose UNLESS you are exercising that day, right before or after your refeed.

Also, I don't see what the bolded part of your post has to do with anything. Dextrose/maltodextrin are not fructose, they are metabolized differently.

Deusomega
11-18-2009, 09:59 AM
I know he lifts weights, why else would be be posting on this site? When I said exercising, I meant there is no point in eating much fructose UNLESS you are exercising that day, right before or after your refeed.

Also, I don't see what the bolded part of your post has to do with anything. Dextrose/maltodextrin are not fructose, they are metabolized differently.

Yeah and the article points out that this is when the fruit should be eaten ie high carb days=workout days thus exercising is a prerequisite condition. I emphasized the dextrose because the article's own post workout recommendations already point that dextrose is preferred for post workout.

Invain
11-18-2009, 11:47 AM
Since when does a high carb day=workout day? No where did the OP specifically state this was when he was lifting weights. I carb cycle myself, one of the days I take in carbs is right after a workout, however my main refeed on Sunday is a rest day.

There's nothing wrong with eating a piece of fruit, I agree. The point I'm trying to make is fructose is definitely not necessary, and if you're going to eat some the best time is right around your workouts. Eating lots of fructose on a high carb day is pointless, fructose does not refill muscle glycogen, it is processed in the liver.

arctic
11-19-2009, 06:13 PM
Since when does a high carb day=workout day? No where did the OP specifically state this was when he was lifting weights. I carb cycle myself, one of the days I take in carbs is right after a workout, however my main refeed on Sunday is a rest day.

There's nothing wrong with eating a piece of fruit, I agree. The point I'm trying to make is fructose is definitely not necessary, and if you're going to eat some the best time is right around your workouts. Eating lots of fructose on a high carb day is pointless, fructose does not refill muscle glycogen, it is processed in the liver.
I may be wrong about this but I think the reason for eating the fruit (fructose) is to refuel your liver's glycogen store. I'm not sure how this effects (theoretically) the "high carb" meal that's to be eaten after the fruit, if someone can explain that would be awesome.

Also, my reason for asking for a fructose supplement (ie pill form) is purely for convenience. Between work and school I don't always have fruit readily available. If the benefit of consuming frustose before a high-carb meal is substantial I want to make sure I incorporate it into my diet. Personally, I would rather eat real fruit for the greater nutritional value if given a choice.

I understand everyone's metabolism/digestion rate will differ slightly. I ask if there's a general time frame (60/30/5min) to consume the fructose before a meal for those who may be familiar with this type of diet.

I plan on starting out this diet following the general 3 day guideline, once I get a feel for how my body reacts to the diet I'll probably modify it. I don't know enough about carb cycling or how my body will react to it to start out with a more sophisticated eating schedule. I'm still learning. If anyone has any recommendations I would love to hear them.

Invain
11-19-2009, 06:31 PM
Yes, fructose goes primarily to the liver.

Let me ask you this: Why do you want to refill liver glycogen first on a high carb day?

As for buying fructose, you can get the pure powder here: http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=23&pid=6758

arctic
11-19-2009, 06:58 PM
According to the article eating the small portion of fruit helps keep liver glycogen levels high/full, thus keeping the body out of "starvation mode".

I want to believe this will aid in keeping the body from storing the energy from the high carb meals into fat, but don't know for sure. I'd rather confirm that on here with experienced members rather than believe an article.

Progress
11-19-2009, 09:10 PM
Fructose is okay when transitioning from the catabolic phase to anabolic. This transition normally includes a workout so taking fructose to refill liver glycogen, in addition to other (healthier) carbs such as dextrose is good for pre-workout nutrition.

That being said, if you're going to eat fructose, get it from fruit or some healthier source or at least in the form of sucrose.

Also, Lyle suggests some fructose in post-workout nutrition that kicks off the carb load.

Invain
11-19-2009, 11:57 PM
According to the article eating the small portion of fruit helps keep liver glycogen levels high/full, thus keeping the body out of "starvation mode".

I want to believe this will aid in keeping the body from storing the energy from the high carb meals into fat, but don't know for sure. I'd rather confirm that on here with experienced members rather than believe an article.

If your muscle glycogen stores are low your body is going to refill those way before it goes to fat.

Why are you worried about starvation mode anyways, you should be no where near it.

arctic
11-20-2009, 06:47 AM
Fructose is okay when transitioning from the catabolic phase to anabolic. This transition normally includes a workout so taking fructose to refill liver glycogen, in addition to other (healthier) carbs such as dextrose is good for pre-workout nutrition.

That being said, if you're going to eat fructose, get it from fruit or some healthier source or at least in the form of sucrose.

Also, Lyle suggests some fructose in post-workout nutrition that kicks off the carb load.

Why is fructose "okay" and what does it do pre/post workout? Why would sucrose be better?

I know sucrose is a disaccharide which will slow it's digestion (please correct me if I'm wrong here). What is the benefit of the disaccharide vs. the mono?


Also,
Can anyone explain what fructose does or what the point of it is in the article I linked?

Invain
11-20-2009, 09:27 AM
A disaccharide is made up of two monosaccharide molecules. A sucrose molecule is made of one glucose and one fructose molecule.

You need to stop focusing on fructose, it's a very minute detail and not the central focus of the article you posted. If you believe it'll help then eat a piece of fruit before your high carb meals. It's not that complicated.

I've already stated what fructose does, and so does the author of the article. It refills liver glycogen.

Progress
11-20-2009, 09:47 AM
Why is fructose "okay" and what does it do pre/post workout? Why would sucrose be better?

I know sucrose is a disaccharide which will slow it's digestion (please correct me if I'm wrong here). What is the benefit of the disaccharide vs. the mono?


Also,
Can anyone explain what fructose does or what the point of it is in the article I linked?

Along with replenishing muscle glycogen after depletion you also want to replenish liver glycogen and fructose does exactly that because it is metabolized exclusively in the liver.

I suggest sucrose because that way you get 50/50 fructose/glucose as opposed to exclusively fructose. That proportion would be similar with HFCS. I just don't care for the corn industry.

I can't say too much on the dissacharide question only that it may help in later bioavailability whereas a mono like dextrose (glucose) is available immediately.

arctic
11-20-2009, 12:28 PM
Along with replenishing muscle glycogen after depletion you also want to replenish liver glycogen and fructose does exactly that because it is metabolized exclusively in the liver.

I suggest sucrose because that way you get 50/50 fructose/glucose as opposed to exclusively fructose. That proportion would be similar with HFCS. I just don't care for the corn industry.

I can't say too much on the dissacharide question only that it may help in later bioavailability whereas a mono like dextrose (glucose) is available immediately.
Thanks dude! I'll look into other forms of sugar.

Is there any specific benefit of replenishing liver glycogen stores with more than one type of sugar (ie sucrose vs. fructose)?

I know replenishing muscle glycogen stores is important for strength and energy (especially during training), but what is the significance/benefit of replenishing liver glycogen stores?

Invain
11-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Did you not read my post? Sucrose is half fructose.

There's really no benefit to refilling liver glycogen if you're not going to be working out. When exercising muscles will utilize their own glycogen stores first. Once blood sugar levels start dropping the liver sends out glucose from its stores.

Auburn
11-20-2009, 03:21 PM
The reason the article pushes the fruit is that Avant/M&M was real big into maintaining as much 'fed state' signaling as possible, even in a caloric deficit. Hence, their Leptigen product. Probably makes about ****-all difference for anyone that isn't competition lean.