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View Full Version : Probiotics and you. Do you take them? if Not, You should, DAMNIT!



TallRob
11-20-2009, 12:05 PM
I thought I would share. After all im a giver, never a taker!
My day job is designing probiotics for the animal and livestock market. But, what I am going to tell you applies to you meatbags (( i mean humans)) as well.
If I were to tell you that you could increase your protein, vitamin and supplement absorption by atleast 10% after taking 2 weeks worth of probiotics and then continue taking them. You'd thank me right?
Yeah you would. Especially if your on a low cal diet and you still want to maintain strength.
Currently in my field probiotics (aka direct fed microbials) are being fed to animals to increase feed efficiency and mainly to get more muscle tissue on them. The best thing is it is a totally natural living organism and packing an animal's GI tract with beneficial microorganisms to aid in nutrient breakdown is without any bad side effects and you cannot over dose them on this.

See, food assimilation is largely handled by bacteria in the intestines. You have three types of bacteria. 1/3 good, 1/3 neutral and 1/3 pathogenic (these are your ecoli, salmonella,etc). Working out too much, work and emotional stress, sickness, age, your genetics and antibiotics can all change the normal pH level of the intestines and effect how you breakdown your food. Certain bacteria love fats and carbs but cant breakdown protien. Ever wonder why your a hard gainer? This just might be the reason. What probiotics do is load up your body with beneficial bacteria that are responsible for proper nutrition and they also help in building up your immune system. Since 70% of your immune system is based in the intestines. Probiotics help train your GALT (Gut Associated Lymphiod Tissue) to combat infections and crap like that. they also produce B vitamins and help assimilate protiens and amino acids much more efficiently. That is how livestock ranchers can get away with feed their animals such low grade food. As long as they feed probiotics along with it. They get increased feed efficiency.
So could you imagine your self talking probiotics along with your whey protein and the handfulls of supplement pills you take every day? your feed efficiency woulr skyrocket. You would pack on more muscle quicker and you would actually lose some fat because the good bacteria would change the ph level that is needed to support the bad bacteria that are responsible for fat breakdown. I am including a paper on animal use of probiotics

IF you guys are going to buy probiotics let me know so that I can give you the facts on buying probiotics that are actually alive and will work. Most ofthe probiotics being sold on the market right now are dead and wont do a thing for you.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:7Hh8JUBRVW8J:medwelljournals.com/fulltext/java/2009/313-321.pdf+Probiotics+and+increase+protein+absorption+in+livestock&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Beverly McD.
11-20-2009, 12:15 PM
Yes. :) I get them from the pharmacist. Refrigerated.

Ryan Celli
11-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Nice write up, thanks!

TallRob
11-20-2009, 12:24 PM
Yes. :) I get them from the pharmacist. Refrigerated.
Yep thats the way to get them!
Probiotics are living organisms. Light heat and moisture start their life cycle and if they are hit by any three they wake up and start eating the ingredients that they are housed in and then die off in hours to days.

Beverly McD.
11-20-2009, 12:27 PM
With all the antibiotics we take, and the antibiotics in our meat products, it's a good idea for everyone to take a round of these at least every once-in-a-while.
Thanks for the reminder TallRob.

TallRob
11-20-2009, 12:33 PM
With all the antibiotics we take, and the antibiotics in our meat products, it's a good idea for everyone to take a round of these at least every once-in-a-while.
Thanks for the reminder TallRob.
Hey its what I doooooooooooo

I noticed that my company as well as other probiotic companies are getting a lot of triathletes, body biulders and proathletes taking our our products now. Because, it gives you edge during training. A LEGAL edge.

Beverly McD.
11-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Hey its what I doooooooooooo

I noticed that my company as well as other probiotic companies are getting a lot of triathletes, body biulders and proathletes taking our our products now. Because, it gives you edge during training. A LEGAL edge.

Legal edge!?!?!?
Sshhhhh! If the gov. finds out they'll ban 'em for sure :D

TallRob
11-20-2009, 12:48 PM
Legal edge!?!?!?
Sshhhhh! If the gov. finds out they'll ban 'em for sure :D
in the production animal market very soon antibiotics will not be allowed. So probiotics are all you will be allowed to use. In the EU its already that way.

See, alot of people were just born or aquired bad bacteria as kids and it stays with them their whole life. If you were to sample the bacteria in a body biulder or proathlete that is heavely muscled and then compared that to some one that is obese and has a lot of depressive stress in their life. You will see a drastic difference in bacterial flora. Simply changing the bacteria make up in a fat person will kick off fat loss and muscle gain. Along with getting your fat ass off the couch.

Doobs
11-20-2009, 01:02 PM
Is there a brand to look for, or do you have any more info on where to get them?

TallRob
11-20-2009, 02:09 PM
Well you couldnt be any better than getting my companies products. But Im not going to turn this into an advert. But What I will do is give you information so that you can make a smart buy.

Things to look for in a good probiotic that will work as advertised.

1) How is it being sold?
You want to make sure that you are buying a probiotic that is shipped to you or a store under refrigeration and that its being kept or stored under refrigeration.
2)Packaging:
Ambger glass and tin lids. That is the only way to be sure that your probiotic hasnt been killed off by light or moisture. Plastic bottle and lids to not block light or moisture.
3) Powders and Capsules. Only buy probiotics in those two forms. the pressure that is used to make a probiotic tablet actually kills the probiotic and you end us with a fraction of the probiotic that you are paying for
4) Labeling. Make sure your probiotic lists the full name of the bacteria (Ex: Lactobacillus acidophilus NAS) and individual CFU (colonyFormingUnits) of each strain. There are hundreds of strains for each bacteria and only a few are any good. the good ones are expensive. When ever you see "L. casei" used. It is used because it is the cheapest and doesnt have any more effect than mothers milk. Its very weak. But manufactures use because its cheap and the customer doesnt know any better.
5) Chemical stabilisers and fillers. Stay away from probiotics that contain FOS, Inulin and chicory root. These ingredients while they can serve as a food source for good bacteria. They also serve as a food source for pathogenic bacteria and you do not want to feed the bad bacteria so that it can grow.
Where to look or good honest probiotics? Wholefoods, Vitamin shoppe and most small health food stores. When look at all of the different probiotics on refrigerated shelf. Just go down my list and youll find one or two companies that meet all of the criteria.
Is there a brand to look for, or do you have any more info on where to get them?

peatr99
11-20-2009, 10:24 PM
sounds good rob. thanks for the info. i have to wonder though as many others are too i'm sure, now what kind of difference are we talking? If you maintain the diet you have will it increase the effectiveness of nutrients taken in by 1%? 25%? 500%? I would be mainly focusing on protein intake here

J.C.
11-21-2009, 05:56 AM
I'm intrigued.

I'm also hoping some other knowledgeable members will step in to corroborate what you're saying.

TallRob
11-21-2009, 07:51 AM
current animal digestive research points to a 5% to 15% with extreme outliers as much as 30% gain in nutrient absorbtion. Frankly, im not up on human research but I can only guess that it is similar.
sounds good rob. thanks for the info. i have to wonder though as many others are too i'm sure, now what kind of difference are we talking? If you maintain the diet you have will it increase the effectiveness of nutrients taken in by 1%? 25%? 500%? I would be mainly focusing on protein intake here

Nicky
11-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I have a friend that takes the cheapo, plastic bottle, on the shelf next to the multi vitamin, wallyworld brand. I shall show him this thread, and look into some for me too.

peatr99
11-21-2009, 04:41 PM
what is it in pigs tallrob? I trust pig research since they are usually considered the most similar human analoge

TallRob
11-21-2009, 06:18 PM
the research ive seen is in the range of 20% plus or minus 5%
what is it in pigs tallrob? I trust pig research since they are usually considered the most similar human analoge

Cmanuel
11-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Just because probiotics works well for livestock doesn't mean it will work for humans. Livestock are ruminents, basically a completely different digestive system that relies on bacteria way more heavily than our own bodies. I'm not sold on probiotics, at least not until someone shows me human research

Cmanuel
11-21-2009, 11:52 PM
With all the antibiotics we take, and the antibiotics in our meat products, it's a good idea for everyone to take a round of these at least every once-in-a-while.
Thanks for the reminder TallRob.

Antibiotics fed to livestock are at sub theraputic levels. They are intended to increase feed efficiency and promote growth. Noone is really sure why it helps so much with growth, most likely due to inhibition of certain background flora. People freak out and think that the meat they eat has high levels of antibiotics, but this is not true.

A much more dangerous situation we should be concerned with is if this continuous use of sub theraputic levels have created antibiotic resistant super bacteria in livestock. It would essentially be the same thing as the mrsa situation in hospitals, except within livestock.

dynamo
11-22-2009, 08:17 AM
how do they managed to survive past the stomach and its enzymes?

TallRob
11-22-2009, 08:33 AM
Just because probiotics works well for livestock doesn't mean it will work for humans. Livestock are ruminents, basically a completely different digestive system that relies on bacteria way more heavily than our own bodies. I'm not sold on probiotics, at least not until someone shows me human research

Im very sorry but you are so totally wrong, Mammals ALL mammals have largely the same structures and bacteria in them. I can take a bacteria from a cow and transplant it into a person and it would the same exact thing. The beauty of bacteria to work is that they do not need you to beleive in them to work. In fact if you didnt have bacteria helping you digest food. You'd be dead. You have 100million human cells andyou have 100 trillion bacteria cells.how that for trivia.

here are a few papers for the doubting Thomases
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/6/2578
http://www.ajcn.cnfindpark.cn/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/386S
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ilsi/nure/2003/00000061/00000003/art00002
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/2/396S
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/short/65/9/3763
http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/5/646
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/430S
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/444S%20

TallRob
11-22-2009, 08:35 AM
how do they managed to survive past the stomach and its enzymes?

probiotics either are coated with film, or placed in an oil matrix and or capsule.
some bacteria have a hardened shell that can hold up to acid.

I happen to think that the older you get the more important it is to use probiotics. Not only because of the immune boosting properties but because of the greater feed efficiencies that it gives you. As you get on in years you lose surface area in the intestines do to scaring. Mainly because of desease and infections to the luminal surface of the intestines over the decades. So, having more benificial bacteria per square inch of working intestine is crucial in keeping up your weight and nutritional uptake.

Cmanuel
11-22-2009, 12:30 PM
Im very sorry but you are so totally wrong, Mammals ALL mammals have largely the same structures and bacteria in them. I can take a bacteria from a cow and transplant it into a person and it would the same exact thing.
Sigh, I figured someone who develops probiotics for livestock might have a better understanding of ruminant nutrition.
Cattle have a completely different stomach than humans. There are 4 separate compartments. Some of these compartments have special micro organisms that allow cattle to digest cellulose and produce their own protein. Humans cannot digest cellulose and must rely on food sources of protein. There are more differences but these are the big ones. Pretty different digestive systems if you ask me, and its clear that bacteria in cattle play a more important role in their digestive system vs humans. I'm not doubting that probiotics have well established benefits for cattle, all I'm saying is that you can't use that as an argument for potential benefits in humans. That's comparing apples to oranges.
Thanks for posting some research articles. Ill check them out when I get a chance.

TallRob
11-22-2009, 04:53 PM
Sigh,,,,,,,Lol, I used to work for Con Agra sticking tubes into portals in theabomasum of ccattle. Plantarum and Orzoi ( partial names) Those two bacteria when planted in people they will be able to increase digestibility of cellulose by 18%. Yes, there are obvious structural difference. But when you get to the bacterial nutrient -tissue interface of the intestine the same rules apply to all mammals. This is basic structure function stuff here. I take it you didnt read ANY of those papers I listed links for. Since you wanted to see HUMAN research. I guess you can lead a horse to water. But you cant make a power lifter read.
Sigh, I figured someone who develops probiotics for livestock might have a better understanding of ruminant nutrition.
Cattle have a completely different stomach than humans. There are 4 separate compartments. Some of these compartments have special micro organisms that allow cattle to digest cellulose and produce their own protein. Humans cannot digest cellulose and must rely on food sources of protein. There are more differences but these are the big ones. Pretty different digestive systems if you ask me, and its clear that bacteria in cattle play a more important role in their digestive system vs humans. I'm not doubting that probiotics have well established benefits for cattle, all I'm saying is that you can't use that as an argument for potential benefits in humans. That's comparing apples to oranges.
Thanks for posting some research articles. Ill check them out when I get a chance.

Cmanuel
11-22-2009, 08:29 PM
Thanks for elaborating. I agree there are very similar processes going on at the tissue interface. I apologize for not reading the articles you've posted, I'm using my cell phone and couldn't access them. I don't have internet access at my home but will access the articles tomorrow at work. Thanks.

Holto
11-22-2009, 10:49 PM
I seem to get less sick when I take probiotics. I think they are a great product. One of the many things I do for my general health.

SDS
11-23-2009, 02:52 PM
I've tried several different ones for extended periods.....refrigerated liquids, freeze-dried powders, etc. Never noticed anything different. I think it's just the latest gimmick. Eating right is still the best thing IMO.

Mercuryblade
11-23-2009, 03:06 PM
You would pack on more muscle quicker and you would actually lose some fat because the good bacteria would change the ph level that is needed to support the bad bacteria that are responsible for fat breakdown.

Can you elaborate on this?

TallRob
11-23-2009, 03:30 PM
some research papers have postulated that certain bacteria such a L. bulgaricus are connected with satiating hunger as well as alleviating gas and bloating. Certain bacteria from some other papers ive read have been shown to be linked to cravings or fatty foods. You basically remove those bacteria via competitive exclusion and theoretically you stop the cravings for certain foods. As for me shoing you how those works .I suggest that you open some of the links I provided as some of the papers have a good preamble on probiotics.
Can you elaborate on this?

Mercuryblade
11-23-2009, 03:51 PM
some research papers have postulated that certain bacteria such a L. bulgaricus are connected with satiating hunger as well as alleviating gas and bloating. Certain bacteria from some other papers ive read have been shown to be linked to cravings or fatty foods. You basically remove those bacteria via competitive exclusion and theoretically you stop the cravings for certain foods. As for me shoing you how those works .I suggest that you open some of the links I provided as some of the papers have a good preamble on probiotics.

I read the links and I couldn't find anything that suggested what you postulated about fat digestion. Perhaps I'm missing something.
I didn't ask about the potential for weight loss due to other benefits, I was just asking about fat breakdown relating to pH change and probiotic supplementation.

Don't take my tone as harsh or directed at you personally, I just wanted an answer to my question.

TallRob
11-23-2009, 04:12 PM
Gotcha, I guess I didnt understand.
I am goingto provide you some links on probiotics and fat loss. Because Im at work right now and I cant really do into things right now. Since I really should be working. :-)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3102562/Probiotic-bacteria-may-help-in-weight-loss-study
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20090507/probiotics-cut-belly-fat-after-pregnancy
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/139/5/905

The thing with probiotics is that they are not working as a stimulent. They basically work to change the environment (pH level) of the intestines to make it inhospitable to bacteria that are "fat-loving". the process starts by physical attachement to the surface of the intestine. The larger numbers of good bacteria attaching tothe intestine starts the process of pH level change through "quarum sensing". Quarum sensing (QS) is a process where bacteria communicate with one another chemically. So the bacteria through (QS) chemically start changing the pH level to suite their needs. If there are enough good bacteria compared to the numbers of bad bacteria. The pH level will change and this causes the bad bacteria to emit a gas as a defense (this is where your bloating comes from). It usually lasts a few days before the bad bacteria die and fall off. This emission of gas is called the Herximer(I cant remember the correct spelling right now) effect. These processes can easily be reversed to the bad bacteria's favor. That is why you want to keep taking probiotics. your basically stacking the deck in your favor. So that large numbers of bad bacteria cannot take over and cause harm.


I read the links and I couldn't find anything that suggested what you postulated about fat digestion. Perhaps I'm missing something.
I didn't ask about the potential for weight loss due to other benefits, I was just asking about fat breakdown relating to pH change and probiotic supplementation.

Don't take my tone as harsh or directed at you personally, I just wanted an answer to my question.

Cmanuel
11-23-2009, 05:05 PM
Lets take a look at your links individually....

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/6/2578
Article describes nothing concerning benefits. Its simply saying that a strain of lactobacillus can be introduced into the intestine via milk product.

http://www.ajcn.cnfindpark.cn/cgi/co...ract/73/2/386S
Link doesn't work

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art00002
Only the abstract is available, but judging from the abstract it looks like it focuses on enhancement of immune function by probiotics. This sentence struck me as interesting, and in a sense goes against a lot of what you are preaching:

"In some cases, general health claims are made that cannot be substantiated for the specific strains and levels being used and consumers must therefore beware."

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/2/396S
Focuses mostly on gastrointestinal health. Items such as diarrhea and lactose intolerance are covered. I thought it was interesting to see that probiotics may help deter carcinogenic compounds, but the article admits that clinical trials need to be conducted for conclusive evidence.


http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/short/65/9/3763
Pretty good mini-review of probiotic strains of lactobacillus. Article mentions that most clinical studies confirm beneficial effects with respect to diarrhea, and that more studies are needed to confirm other effects (Such as immune system benefits)

http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/5/646
Shows that several strains of bifidobacterium may exert antimicrobial effects against pathogen such as Salmonella typhimurium (prominent foodborne pathogen). I think this is pretty neat, seeing as how big of a problem foodborne illnesses can be (especially Salmonella). Still, I think proper food safety practices by both the consumer and the food industry (which needs to be better enforced by FDA) will eliminate 90% of all foodborne illnesses.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/430S
Again just another good review showing evidence for relief of diarrhea and other gastro-disorders through probiotic therapy

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/444S%20
Discusses potential benefits on the human immune system and suggests we develop clinical trials with this specific goal in mind.

This is what I'm getting at:
You are claiming that probiotic consumption can:
1. Increase protein, vitamin, and supplement (very vague term) absorption by 10% in 2 weeks
2. Increase immune system efficiency
3. Increased Muscle mass
4. Increased Fat Loss

So far the evidence you've provided only supports point 2, and clinical evidence isnt overwhelming.

I'm not buying into probiotics for human use. Just sounds like every other dietary supplement out there. They can claim the greatest benefits in the world, and as long as they have the proper words written on the package, then they can get away with it

Edit: I see you posted more to support your "increased fat loss" argument. Lets take a look at the links.



Gotcha, I guess I didnt understand.
I am goingto provide you some links on probiotics and fat loss. Because Im at work right now and I cant really do into things right now. Since I really should be working. :-)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3102562/Probiotic-bacteria-may-help-in-weight-loss-study
Study performed on Gastric Bypass patients. Not exactly applicable to the average human
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20090507/probiotics-cut-belly-fat-after-pregnancy
Study performed on women after childbirth. Definitely shows some correlation, but correlation doesn't indicate a specific mechanism (can't be positive that probiotics are actually helping, but shows more research needed in the area)
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/139/5/905
Has nothing to do with fat loss? Focuses on liver disease prevention. Not sure why you chose this one.

Look I agree with you that there are many potential benefits of probiotics and that research SHOULD be done in this area. I just think that you are making these products out to be something better than what they actually are.

Where is the evidence on muscle growth? What about supplement absorption?

Sorry, I'm not buying into it. I think i'll save my money and put it into something more useful, such as good dietary and exercise habits so I dont have to buy these over-hyped and probably over-priced products.

TallRob
11-23-2009, 05:17 PM
Right now in humans so far 600 different strains of bacteria have been isolated. Only 10% of those bacteria actually havea name or have been studied. Yes, probiotic science while it has been around since the 70's It has only really started due because of DNA fingerprinting and new techniques. I know that right now I lot of prior research is being redone with new techniques because the researchers atthe time didnt know why things happened.

Sorry about the links. They all work on my PC. But im at work. I also have the benefit of having a library of 25yrs plus of probiotic research at hand and I just did a quick and dirty search on google to find some papers good and bad for you to read. You seem to be a research minded guy. IM sure if you have someone that has a pubmed account you can read some great papers on the subject.

One thing about the claims. You are right. Right now its the wild west in human probiotic advertzing and claims. All the FDA asks for is basic structure-function. ALthough I think that is going to change soon. Soon all products might have to go through clinical trials to be sold inthe the US and Canada. I very much hope this happens. As our human products have been through several clinical studies on candida, ciliac desease and showed good results.
Lets take a look at your links individually....

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/6/2578
Article describes nothing concerning benefits. Its simply saying that a strain of lactobacillus can be introduced into the intestine via milk product.

http://www.ajcn.cnfindpark.cn/cgi/co...ract/73/2/386S
Link doesn't work

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art00002
Only the abstract is available, but judging from the abstract it looks like it focuses on enhancement of immune function by probiotics. This sentence struck me as interesting, and in a sense goes against a lot of what you are preaching:

"In some cases, general health claims are made that cannot be substantiated for the specific strains and levels being used and consumers must therefore beware."

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/2/396S
Focuses mostly on gastrointestinal health. Items such as diarrhea and lactose intolerance are covered. I thought it was interesting to see that probiotics may help deter carcinogenic compounds, but the article admits that clinical trials need to be conducted for conclusive evidence.


http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/short/65/9/3763
Pretty good mini-review of probiotic strains of lactobacillus. Article mentions that most clinical studies confirm beneficial effects with respect to diarrhea, and that more studies are needed to confirm other effects (Such as immune system benefits)

http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/47/5/646
Shows that several strains of bifidobacterium may exert antimicrobial effects against pathogen such as Salmonella typhimurium (prominent foodborne pathogen). I think this is pretty neat, seeing as how big of a problem foodborne illnesses can be (especially Salmonella). Still, I think proper food safety practices by both the consumer and the food industry (which needs to be better enforced by FDA) will eliminate 90% of all foodborne illnesses.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/430S
Again just another good review showing evidence for relief of diarrhea and other gastro-disorders through probiotic therapy

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/73/2/444S%20
Discusses potential benefits on the human immune system and suggests we develop clinical trials with this specific goal in mind.

This is what I'm getting at:
You are claiming that probiotic consumption can:
1. Increase protein, vitamin, and supplement (very vague term) absorption by 10% in 2 weeks
2. Increase immune system efficiency
3. Increased Muscle mass
4. Increased Fat Loss

So far the evidence you've provided only supports point 2, and clinical evidence isnt overwhelming.

I'm not buying into probiotics for human use. Just sounds like every other dietary supplement out there. They can claim the greatest benefits in the world, and as long as they have the proper words written on the package, then they can get away with it.

Cmanuel
11-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Right now in humans so far 600 different strains of bacteria have been isolated. Only 10% of those bacteria actually havea name or have been studied. Yes, probiotic science while it has been around since the 70's It has only really started due because of DNA fingerprinting and new techniques. I know that right now I lot of prior research is being redone with new techniques because the researchers atthe time didnt know why things happened.

Sorry about the links. They all work on my PC. But im at work. I also have the benefit of having a library of 25yrs plus of probiotic research at hand and I just did a quick and dirty search on google to find some papers good and bad for you to read. You seem to be a research minded guy. IM sure if you have someone that has a pubmed account you can read some great papers on the subject.

Rob,

First of all let me apologize if any of my comments come off as harsh. I don't mean to attack you directly. I'm just very skeptical about any product I spend my money on unless its backed up with good research (which is why I only supplement with protein and creatine [in the form of RESULTS])

With that said yes I am a research minded guy. I'm doing a MS/PHD in food safety/food microbiology (all of my research focuses on genetic analysis of foodborne pathogens isolated from environment using various "finger printing" techniques). I do have a pubmed account but I don't really have the time to spend disseminating the "good" papers from the "bad", i'm too busy with my research.

But i'm all for a scientific discussion on the topic. Thats why I chose to go into academia. So lets keep this discussion going in a civil manner (and I apologize for previous comments). Just know that I can't spend a lot of time looking up articles that aren't relevant to my thesis.

Edit: I totally agree with regulation of these products. The dietary supplement industry is an absolute mess. I think the new administration will be on top of this and I look to see a lot of changes in FDA regulation (which i hope will include clinical trials on many of these products).

TallRob
11-23-2009, 05:36 PM
Here is my backgroung BS/MS animal science, with studies in nutrion and phyisiology. I graduated in 95 so Ive been in the field a while now. Worked for Medtronic, Baxter, Con Agr and the VA all in animal research and animal nutrition. The regulations concerning supplements are indeed sad. Less so concerning animals but still pretty bad. However, in food and companion animals. Individual states are really active and the animal food industry generally have better and closer relationships with governing bodies. The FDA and USDA wont change until they get more bodies on the ground and doing inspections. Its really that simple. They just dont have the budgets.
BTW im on vacation in 20 minutes so most likely I will be replacing a mouse for a dumbell or maybe a glass of cheap wine or expensive beer. I dont know right now. But I probably wont be going on line until the weekend.
Rob,

First of all let me apologize if any of my comments come off as harsh. I don't mean to attack you directly. I'm just very skeptical about any product I spend my money on unless its backed up with good research (which is why I only supplement with protein and creatine [in the form of RESULTS])

With that said yes I am a research minded guy. I'm doing a MS/PHD in food safety/food microbiology (all of my research focuses on genetic analysis of foodborne pathogens isolated from environment using various "finger printing" techniques). I do have a pubmed account but I don't really have the time to spend disseminating the "good" papers from the "bad", i'm too busy with my research.

But i'm all for a scientific discussion on the topic. Thats why I chose to go into academia. So lets keep this discussion going in a civil manner (and I apologize for previous comments). Just know that I can't spend a lot of time looking up articles that aren't relevant to my thesis.

Edit: I totally agree with regulation of these products. The dietary supplement industry is an absolute mess. I think the new administration will be on top of this and I look to see a lot of changes in FDA regulation (which i hope will include clinical trials on many of these products).

heal12
07-22-2014, 12:16 AM
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