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thewicked
12-17-2009, 01:43 PM
I squat and deadlift every other week and it's blowing my deadlift up! So squats are taking a back seat to pulling but need to be brought up on their own.

here's the problems...hips are killing me squatting like a "powerlifter" with a wider stance. I squatted last night ass to grass totally raw with 370 for 10 reps leaving a little in the tank but my stance was vary narrow. It's right at shoulder width ala IPF-ish. I chose this stance because it is the same one I do plyo's and use to JUMP from the floor...

my personal training experience and work in school says this is the body's most power productive stance when generating force to propell my body UP!

HOWEVER i do not have a solid squat routine and was wondering what you guys would suggest for someone who doesn't squat often? I'm starting to LOVE squatting but I'm also leaving some in the tank everytime I squat to not totally exhaust myself. I'm good for 500 with light wraps squatting this way but need to build up to 585-600 before next november.

I thought about using something like this..

week 1 70% of 1rm x's 6 or more...
week 2 80% of 1rm x's4 or more...
week 3 90% of 1rm x's 2 or more...

and then once I'm able to exceed the minimum amount of reps then I'll add 5lbs to the working weight and continue.

I'm up for more suggestions. I think I could def bring my squat up to something respectable for full meets next year.

ScottYard
12-17-2009, 01:58 PM
Your plan seems sound. I would add a 4th week as a deload. Wide and raw isnt too good of combination and for your hips sake. shoulder width is the way to go.

thewicked
12-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Your plan seems sound. I would add a 4th week as a deload. Wide and raw isnt too good of combination and for your hips sake. shoulder width is the way to go.

thanks scott...

yeah man plus i'm feeling it more in my quads this way and with the way i'm deadlifting now it definately has paid dividends in my pulling with DEEP Squatting.

those weeks are rotated every other week with deadlifting so weeks 7 and 8 actually are deloaded for both. I dont' see why I can't add atleast a solid 20lbs to my squat in that kinda time.

slashkills
12-17-2009, 03:16 PM
my personal training experience and work in school says this is the body's most power productive stance when generating force to propell my body UP!



sorry to hijack the thread but i have a queastion about that^

If one is trying to increase speed/acceleration/explosiveness for things like a vertical jump or 40yard dash should their squat training mainly be a narrow stance, or if the athlete is comfortable with it could they go with a wider stance? As long as the posterior chain is getting worked enough i would think the general strength increase from weight training is beneficial.

endymion88
12-17-2009, 05:12 PM
i dont really get what too wide is for raw. i squat 42-44 inches apart raw and don't suffer toooo much hip pain. the only reason i think i have any is because while running smolov somethings gonna have to hurt. what's the general thought on what's too wide while raw.

Brian C
12-17-2009, 05:47 PM
Great post here. I'm wondering the same as a lot of you. I usually squat with feet touching both sides of rack when squatting, but my hips are really taking a beating too since I DL every week sumo also. Love to hear more on this topic. Keep it going.

RhodeHouse
12-17-2009, 06:09 PM
If you wear briefs, you can get away with the wide squatting and sumo pulling. If not, be careful or you'll end up in my position.

If you squat and pull wide, I'd squat with a shoulder-width stance. ANy wider will end up banging you up. Squatting will help your pull, so you don't have to pull every week or even every other week. You can try conventional pulling instead of sumo. It'll keep the hips happy. If you squat, you're training the same muscles that pull.

Just my thoughts. I'm toying with my plan for a meet I plan on doing. Not sure if I'l be squatting every week, like usual, or maybe every other.

Food for thought.

thewicked
12-17-2009, 08:35 PM
sorry to hijack the thread but i have a queastion about that^

If one is trying to increase speed/acceleration/explosiveness for things like a vertical jump or 40yard dash should their squat training mainly be a narrow stance, or if the athlete is comfortable with it could they go with a wider stance? As long as the posterior chain is getting worked enough i would think the general strength increase from weight training is beneficial.

doesn't really matter..

i'd say the increased ROM of a more olympic style of squat gives better overall stimulus where as a wide stance is very punchy and seems all hips and lower back. HOWEVER...even if you squat wider and do solid squats with quality form and technique sure you're going to get benefit when it comes to all of the above.

REMEMBER..hamstrings are key in anything running..short distance or other wise. You want to run faster... build that posterior chain up.

Travis Bell
12-17-2009, 09:00 PM
The power squat (wider stance) will afford better help to athletic events like the 40 and the vertical jump test.

The power squat really hammers the glutes, hams and hips, much moreso than the olympic squat

you can go plenty deep with the power squat

Fuzzy
12-17-2009, 09:14 PM
The power squat (wider stance) will afford better help to athletic events like the 40 and the vertical jump test.

The power squat really hammers the glutes, hams and hips, much moreso than the olympic squat

you can go plenty deep with the power squat

I disagree.

There seems to be a complete and utter disregard for the improtance of the quads in an athletic movement. Also, putting more stress on the glutes and hamstrings is not necessarily going to translate to a better jump or sprint. I have seen different coaches applying both types to different athletes, and from what I did see those performing Olympic squats showed much better explosion than athletes using power squats. This of course doesnt mean anything when we consider the billion other factors.

I personally feel that the wide squat has little application outside of powerlifting. Its a movement designed to maximise efficiency to parallel, it is highly specialised. Moderate stanced atg Olympic squats train the leg far more evenly, because as important as the glutes and hams are, the quads are still important, and the legs should be trained in a balanced manner, not with a movement that heavily favours one side of the leg.

I should qualify this with the fact that too many lifters take narrow stance squats way too far and end up with nothing but an isolated quad movement that immitates the leg press. The type of squat I am talking about is a bit past hip width with the toes pointed out.

If the posterior chain is lacking, then perform GMs, deadlifts and the dozens of excesrsies that will build it up. I see no need to morph the squat for the purpose of adding some stress on the rear.

(runs and hides)

Keith
12-17-2009, 09:18 PM
The power squat (wider stance) will afford better help to athletic events like the 40 and the vertical jump test.

The power squat really hammers the glutes, hams and hips, much moreso than the olympic squat

you can go plenty deep with the power squat

Do you find it's too taxing on the hips to squat wide throughout your lifetime if you train raw?

Travis Bell
12-17-2009, 09:28 PM
Not if you're smart about it. You need to rotate your squat heights or box heights, those will help

Taking a week every now and then and moving your feet in for a short break won't hurt you I guess

But if you rotate your box heights and take care of your hips (stretching, foam rolling, ice post workout if needed) you really should be fine. Listen to your body and know what it needs.

JK1
12-17-2009, 11:05 PM
I disagree.

There seems to be a complete and utter disregard for the improtance of the quads in an athletic movement. Also, putting more stress on the glutes and hamstrings is not necessarily going to translate to a better jump or sprint. I have seen different coaches applying both types to different athletes, and from what I did see those performing Olympic squats showed much better explosion than athletes using power squats. This of course doesnt mean anything when we consider the billion other factors.

I personally feel that the wide squat has little application outside of powerlifting. Its a movement designed to maximise efficiency to parallel, it is highly specialised. Moderate stanced atg Olympic squats train the leg far more evenly, because as important as the glutes and hams are, the quads are still important, and the legs should be trained in a balanced manner, not with a movement that heavily favours one side of the leg.

I should qualify this with the fact that too many lifters take narrow stance squats way too far and end up with nothing but an isolated quad movement that immitates the leg press. The type of squat I am talking about is a bit past hip width with the toes pointed out.

If the posterior chain is lacking, then perform GMs, deadlifts and the dozens of excesrsies that will build it up. I see no need to morph the squat for the purpose of adding some stress on the rear.

(runs and hides)

I disagree with what you are saying too... ;)

The thing you are forgetting is the proportions of the lifter. Depending on the height of the lifter, the width of the lifters pelvis, and the lifters leg length relative to their torso length, they will naturally have a different powercurve to their squat stance. Because of that, I don't think you can make the statement I think you are trying to make.

What you need to do as an athlete is find your natural power curve and work within the parameters of that curve. Rarely are you going to take an exactly 42 inch width between your toes. You will shift into an approximate stance that suits your proportions. This means working both narrower and wider stance squats, not one or the other. You also have to be careful with that because poor training can lead to a poor stance relative to your body and ultimately injury.

As a powerlifter, you need to work the stance that gives you the most strength out of the hole based on your body proportions, strengths, and flexibility. This will also vary a bit depending on the gear that you use--ie multiply vs single ply vs RAW.

thewicked
12-18-2009, 01:23 PM
what it honestly all comes down to is what produces for your athlete.

all paths lead to the top of the mountain..just find the one that best suits your "physical abilities" when picking your trail.

i..like fuzzy..feel that the powerlifting version of the squat is specialized and has LESS application that an traditional powerlifting squat however both can and do produce results.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 04:44 PM
It just makes me smile when I spend literally all day in a seminar with Louie listening to him explain for hours as to why a wider stance squat is much more effective than an olympic squat and then I get on here and read this stuff :)

What does that Louie guy know anyways though haha

nickp8
12-18-2009, 05:21 PM
It just makes me smile when I spend literally all day in a seminar with Louie listening to him explain for hours as to why a wider stance squat is much more effective than an olympic squat and then I get on here and read this stuff :)

What does that Louie guy know anyways though haha

Hey Travis I have a question and I am not trying to call you out or agree or disagree with what you are saying. I will use the 40 yard dash as an example. It looks like to me at least, when talking about how effective a shoulder width squat is compared to a wide power squat is that a shoulder width squat would carry over more to a 40 yard dash because of the set up and how important powerful quads are for the first 10 yards. Everyone knows the first 10 yards are the most important for a good time, and even past 10 yards no one runs with thier feet out wide. Also when a shoulder width squat goes below parrallel the hamstrings and glutes are used a lot so they aren't being neglected. Like I said I am asking for your experience and knowlege on this question I am not saying that I think you are wrong. I'm also not saying that you have to do this or that to get fast, I am just talking about comparing these 2 types of squats.

barbell01
12-18-2009, 05:29 PM
Glutes Glutes Glutes. poeple dont realize how important glutes are.....

Fuzzy
12-18-2009, 08:03 PM
It just makes me smile when I spend literally all day in a seminar with Louie listening to him explain for hours as to why a wider stance squat is much more effective than an olympic squat and then I get on here and read this stuff :)

What does that Louie guy know anyways though haha

Fair point, and he has alot of evidence on his side to. But what about evidence for the olympic squat? What about the carry over of it to track sports as well as sprinting?

I am not discrediting Louie, and you know Im one of the few young guys who understands the importance of shutting up and doing what the stronger guys tell you no matter how weird it may seem to you, but Louie is the head of the strongest powerlifting gym in the world.

Im sure the Russians would have had their track athletes squatting wide if it worked better, but instead all athletes trained with the weightlifters and squatted as they do. That has got to count for something.

My final argument. I seriously have trouble performing a movement that tears the hips up like a wide squat does. You said that the high of boxes etc should be changed to accomadate for this stress? Why? Why does the hight of a movement need to be altered in order to make it bearable on the hips? Does this not seem a little crazy to you?

Olympic squats, and I am going to make a veryvery bold assertion here, are more natural for the body. Watch a baby squat, the knees arent held back, its not stopped at parallel, and the torso is not leaning forward.

As I have said, the power squat is a very very very specialised movement, and should be treated as such.

JK1
12-18-2009, 08:26 PM
The babies I've seen tend to "squat" with a wider stance. Watch one get up. If they have a narrower stance, they tend to fall over.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 08:40 PM
Hey Travis I have a question and I am not trying to call you out or agree or disagree with what you are saying. I will use the 40 yard dash as an example. It looks like to me at least, when talking about how effective a shoulder width squat is compared to a wide power squat is that a shoulder width squat would carry over more to a 40 yard dash because of the set up and how important powerful quads are for the first 10 yards. Everyone knows the first 10 yards are the most important for a good time, and even past 10 yards no one runs with thier feet out wide. Also when a shoulder width squat goes below parrallel the hamstrings and glutes are used a lot so they aren't being neglected. Like I said I am asking for your experience and knowlege on this question I am not saying that I think you are wrong. I'm also not saying that you have to do this or that to get fast, I am just talking about comparing these 2 types of squats.

The biggest flaw with that analogy is that you're trying to emulate the way you run, with the squat movement.

What muscles do you use when you squat (power squat)? glutes, hams and lower back

What muscles do you use when you're sprinting? glutes and hams

If you want to train your running technique, you can't do it squatting. You need to sprint. That is what's called sport specificity

I know this crap from real life stuff, you can take a sprinter, have them squat close stance, take another lifter, have them squat power stance and the power squatter is going to make better gains on his 40 time.

Fuzzy
12-18-2009, 08:43 PM
I know this crap from real life stuff, you can take a sprinter, have them squat close stance, take another lifter, have them squat power stance and the power squatter is going to make better gains on his 40 time.

That's the pickle isnt it? Do you havee access to any proper studies on this? I cant find any, however I find that those who squat atg with a narrow stance seem to sprint better.

We are both heavily biased to seeing results as we want, which is whu a definitive study would be nice.


On that thought... Imma see what I can do about that.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 08:48 PM
Fair point, and he has alot of evidence on his side to. But what about evidence for the olympic squat? What about the carry over of it to track sports as well as sprinting?

I am not discrediting Louie, and you know Im one of the few young guys who understands the importance of shutting up and doing what the stronger guys tell you no matter how weird it may seem to you, but Louie is the head of the strongest powerlifting gym in the world.

He most certainly is. However, I suppose being used by multiple NFL teams as a strength consultant, training multiple pro level athletes, collegiate athletes and several olympic athletes, probably gives him a bit more of a base for his results than yours.

He's even taken athletes that weren't able to qualify for the Olympic team, people thought they never would. They came, trained with Lou and low and behold, made the qualifiers.


Im sure the Russians would have had their track athletes squatting wide if it worked better, but instead all athletes trained with the weightlifters and squatted as they do. That has got to count for something.

And what do you have to base your opinion on what the Russians do or do not do?

If we are going to create hypothesis based upon athletes and coaches that we have no idea the specifics of their programs for each athlete, the converse could be said if the Russians are running that fast with a close stance squat, just imagine how fast they would be if they trained their squat better?

Using the flaws of one program to justify the flaws in yours isn't going to be a super productive idea.


My final argument. I seriously have trouble performing a movement that tears the hips up like a wide squat does. You said that the high of boxes etc should be changed to accomadate for this stress? Why? Why does the hight of a movement need to be altered in order to make it bearable on the hips? Does this not seem a little crazy to you?

Olympic squats, and I am going to make a veryvery bold assertion here, are more natural for the body. Watch a baby squat, the knees arent held back, its not stopped at parallel, and the torso is not leaning forward.

As I have said, the power squat is a very very very specialised movement, and should be treated as such.


The changing of the box height is to help strengthen the hips, it doesn't tear them up. That's why I said you can do it for a long time without any problems.

We've had plenty of Olympic lifters that come to the gym and think they can squat deep. Put them in a power stance and they can't even hit the high box. Know why? because of flexibility. If you slowly loosen your hips up you'll be just fine. Most people don't stretch enough.

Bottom line, if squatting close stance worked better, we'd use it, but we don't because it doesn't.

I think people like you Fuzzy think we do this stuff because it's a theory. It's not a theory. It's trial and error. And this is the best program that works for returning the best results for peoples efforts.

I'm done with this thread

Brian C
12-18-2009, 10:45 PM
If you wear briefs, you can get away with the wide squatting and sumo pulling. If not, be careful or you'll end up in my position.

If you squat and pull wide, I'd squat with a shoulder-width stance. ANy wider will end up banging you up. Squatting will help your pull, so you don't have to pull every week or even every other week. You can try conventional pulling instead of sumo. It'll keep the hips happy. If you squat, you're training the same muscles that pull.

Just my thoughts. I'm toying with my plan for a meet I plan on doing. Not sure if I'l be squatting every week, like usual, or maybe every other.

Food for thought.

Great advice Rhodes, thanks

slashkills
12-19-2009, 10:00 AM
The biggest flaw with that analogy is that you're trying to emulate the way you run, with the squat movement.


to go off of this sorta, Joe Defranco says that all work in the weight room for a sprinter is GPP work. The goal of any weightlifting routine should be to build the most strength in the muscles used for an athlete. wide squatting builds bigger Hams and glutes than olympic squats.

Look at Joe defrancos athletes. His main exercise for football players working up to the combine is squats(for hitting the hams and glutes) then he follows that up with a quad dominant exercise.
So it seems that Defranco believes the best approach is equally working the posterior chain and the quads.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_06-12-15.htm
i got this from the second question if anyone is interested.

nickp8
12-19-2009, 10:06 AM
Thanks Travis. I know a lot more goes into training than just squatting, and I know you need to sprint to get better at sprinting. I was talking about this one little piece of the equation.

endymion88
12-19-2009, 04:28 PM
He most certainly is. However, I suppose being used by multiple NFL teams as a strength consultant, training multiple pro level athletes, collegiate athletes and several olympic athletes, probably gives him a bit more of a base for his results than yours.

He's even taken athletes that weren't able to qualify for the Olympic team, people thought they never would. They came, trained with Lou and low and behold, made the qualifiers.



And what do you have to base your opinion on what the Russians do or do not do?

If we are going to create hypothesis based upon athletes and coaches that we have no idea the specifics of their programs for each athlete, the converse could be said if the Russians are running that fast with a close stance squat, just imagine how fast they would be if they trained their squat better?

Using the flaws of one program to justify the flaws in yours isn't going to be a super productive idea.




The changing of the box height is to help strengthen the hips, it doesn't tear them up. That's why I said you can do it for a long time without any problems.

We've had plenty of Olympic lifters that come to the gym and think they can squat deep. Put them in a power stance and they can't even hit the high box. Know why? because of flexibility. If you slowly loosen your hips up you'll be just fine. Most people don't stretch enough.

Bottom line, if squatting close stance worked better, we'd use it, but we don't because it doesn't.

I think people like you Fuzzy think we do this stuff because it's a theory. It's not a theory. It's trial and error. And this is the best program that works for returning the best results for peoples efforts.

I'm done with this thread

owned?