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View Full Version : DB Bench for an ME movement?



ThomasG
12-17-2009, 10:20 PM
I've been told a lot to do db bench if you're slow off the chest. So for as an accessory movement I've been doing flat DB bench. However, why not just do it as my ME movement? DB bench is also a weak point for me 130x12x2 is what I did last yet with a barbell I can press 280x1 easily. 275x2 is when I get stuck off the chest.

I've just never seen it used as an ME exercise. Thoughts?

SEOINAGE
12-17-2009, 10:27 PM
talking 130 lb dumbells or 65?

ThomasG
12-17-2009, 10:28 PM
talking 130 lb dumbells or 65?

65. I started db pressing about 3 weeks ago?

SEOINAGE
12-17-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm sure you can make some progress with them still as an accessory movement.

ThomasG
12-17-2009, 10:39 PM
I'm sure you can make some progress with them still as an accessory movement.

Yes I have been on a weekly basis.

MarcusWild
12-17-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd keep them as an accessory. ME movements are typically about moving a max weight not doing a bunch of reps. You should probably hit 2 lat accessories on ME and DE bench day too. It'll help you get stronger off the chest.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 02:43 AM
I've just never seen it used as an ME exercise. Thoughts?

What routine are you talking about as its awkward to make a sweeping statement like that.

Lones Green
12-18-2009, 03:10 AM
They just get kinda goofy when you go for a 1RM. Reps are better.

Maybe as a deload, but not a heavy single

jtteg_x
12-18-2009, 03:35 AM
I've been told a lot to do db bench if you're slow off the chest.

ThomasG, sorry to thread jack but I thought I'd ask this. Was I ill informed or does DB Bench help build stability? As for being slow, wouldn't speed bench on DE days be the best approach?

OP, what's your current routine like?

n00bster
12-18-2009, 04:03 AM
You can be overanalytical and miss the key ideas of what ME & DE stand for.


Max effort days are lifting as heavy as possible depending on the lifter’s capabilities at the present time. This means that even though you may not be going to a contest, you are training like the lifters that are.

Even though it looks like the OP is doing WS4SB3 and not "westside proper", you need to put pre conceptions aside. DBs actually have a longer range of motion than flat bench and hit your stabilisers more, for this reason many shy away from doing them. You can see people lifting their ass off the bench to hit 300 lbs on the barbell and not even going full ROM, but they can't even stabilise 120 pound DBs per hand and press them. Is this a feature or a bug?

Edit Max Effort here is taken to mean working to a 3-5 rep max not singles.

NickAus
12-18-2009, 04:37 AM
No way, not for max effort.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 04:48 AM
Great choice for deload week though, just not to a single

n00bster
12-18-2009, 04:51 AM
No way, not for max effort.

Why not DBs if that is your weak point? With the stats the OP has in his journal for flat bench, he ought to be pressing heavier DBs. I would guess he does a lot of floor presses, board presses in addition to the flat bench but he ought to be pressing heavier DBs IMO.

Barbaccio
12-18-2009, 05:03 AM
Why not DBs if that is your weak point? With the stats the OP has in his journal for flat bench, he ought to be pressing heavier DBs. I would guess he does a lot of floor presses, board presses in addition to the flat bench but he ought to be pressing heavier DBs IMO.

I find it funny that your name is n00bster yet you talk like you're a 20 year vet.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 05:14 AM
Why not DBs if that is your weak point? With the stats the OP has in his journal for flat bench, he ought to be pressing heavier DBs. I would guess he does a lot of floor presses, board presses in addition to the flat bench but he ought to be pressing heavier DBs IMO.

So your recommendation is to go to a 1rm with dumbbells?

I need stronger triceps, but that doesnt mean I use pushdowns as a ME exercise

He needs to keep them as accessory. First time he tries to take them to a 1rm, he's going to find out that was a poor choice

n00bster
12-18-2009, 05:15 AM
I find it funny that your name is n00bster yet you talk like you're a 20 year vet.

Ha! Ha! Ha! Hakuna Matata! But the advice still stands. As Travis Bell pointed out, DBs are good for a deload week. Its common to switch to heavy DB pressing - its pretty old school but effective.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 05:17 AM
So your recommendation is to go to a 1rm with dumbbells?

I need stronger triceps, but that doesnt mean I use pushdowns as a ME exercise

He needs to keep them as accessory. First time he tries to take them to a 1rm, he's going to find out that was a poor choice

No not, 1RM with DBs. I think WS4SB3 which the OP is following says 3-5 rep max unless Joe Defranco updated it.

Travis Bell
12-18-2009, 05:22 AM
No not, 1RM with DBs. I think WS4SB3 which the OP is following says 3-5 rep max unless Joe Defranco updated it.

3rm would not be good, I guess 5rm would be alright though

Just too easy to have something go wrong with max or near max dumbbells

When you're trying to work a particular weakness sich as the bottom part of your chest, it's going to be more effective to use something like cambered bar bench for your ME movement and dumbbells as your accessory movement

You're going to be able to use a much more effective weight, or even weight with bands, or chains with the bar.

You just can't go heavy enough with the dumbbells without hurting yourself with the dumbbells.

NickAus
12-18-2009, 05:55 AM
Why not DBs if that is your weak point? With the stats the OP has in his journal for flat bench, he ought to be pressing heavier DBs. I would guess he does a lot of floor presses, board presses in addition to the flat bench but he ought to be pressing heavier DBs IMO.

Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

ThomasG
12-18-2009, 05:57 AM
Thank's for the replies everyone. And yes I am on ws4sbv3.

NickAus
12-18-2009, 06:04 AM
If you really want to get better a dumbells just make sure you hit them hard once per week, don't worry too much if your not a dumbell bench champion.

I can only use 20lbs on side raises for some reason yet I have done seated militarys with 225 so it really does not matter there are lots of lifters the same.

Hope this helps.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 06:08 AM
Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

People can get caught up in thinking, there is only one best way to train for everyone. DB Bench press is spoken of highly by people like Lee Hayward (http://strength-oldschool.com/blog/tag/dumbbell-bench-press/) and can also feature in the shotgun method of training (its on tmuscle). The DB or BB is a means to an end. People start flaming wars over the best way to train or x is better than y, so i don't wan't to go there.

On a discussion at another forum (EliteFitness), DBs came up but I don't want to go out of topic, but yopu can look it up if you have issues with DBs approaching/above your own body weight.

OGROK
12-18-2009, 07:45 AM
I just think it's a bad idea... Dumbbell presses are an injury risk when done for very low reps and it's hard to make constant progress because of the large weight jumps and the fact that you have to kick them into place (which also makes it very difficult to get any arch going under the weight). Dumbbells are best used for higher reps, like 8+ in my mind.... You cite a Lee Hayward article but he is a bodybuilder who is using them to "build a thick and muscular armour plated chest" and he sure isn't maxing out with them like what you are suggesting in this thread...

Lones Green
12-18-2009, 08:16 AM
People can get caught up in thinking, there is only one best way to train for everyone. DB Bench press is spoken of highly by people like Lee Hayward (http://strength-oldschool.com/blog/tag/dumbbell-bench-press/) and can also feature in the shotgun method of training (its on tmuscle). The DB or BB is a means to an end. People start flaming wars over the best way to train or x is better than y, so i don't wan't to go there.

On a discussion at another forum (EliteFitness), DBs came up but I don't want to go out of topic, but yopu can look it up if you have issues with DBs approaching/above your own body weight.

Nobody is bashing Dumbbells. In fact, most are saying they are a great tool.

It's just near impossible to hoist the DB's needed for a 1 rep max up off the ground to your knees and then over your face. Even if you have someone handing them to you, its not worth it. There's a pretty good chance you're going to knock out your teeth if you miss.

You're arguing with a guy that trains at Westside currently, and as support for your argument, you're using quotes from Westside articles. Bravo.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 08:17 AM
I just think it's a bad idea... Dumbbell presses are an injury risk when done for very low reps and it's hard to make constant progress because of the large weight jumps and the fact that you have to kick them into place (which also makes it very difficult to get any arch going under the weight). Dumbbells are best used for higher reps, like 8+ in my mind.... You cite a Lee Hayward article but he is a bodybuilder who is using them to "build a thick and muscular armour plated chest" and he sure isn't maxing out with them like what you are suggesting in this thread...

You are entitled to your own uneducated opinion. Just for the record, is Lee Hayward blast your bench program for bodybuilders? The arch that he does in one youtube clip I have seen is not a bodybuilder type bench press.

What did Mark Rippetoe say in SS on DBs pressing versus BBs pressing (if you want to get caught up in the who says what game). I have SS and can cite you the specific page. SS is not a bodybuilding routine.

If you have issues getting moderate DBs into place, I wlll not state that you are a weakling as suggested on another forum, I would suggest you look up that topic on elitefitness. There are plenty of vids on youtube of people DB pressing very heavy DBs. I'm not for one minute suggesting the OP go and try to kill himself trying to emulate those guys by the way.

If you are talking of the heavy DBs where each DB is close to or more than your own bodyweight then do what Ronnie Coleman does.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 08:21 AM
Nobody is bashing Dumbbells. In fact, most are saying they are a great tool.

It's just near impossible to hoist the DB's needed for a 1 rep max up off the ground to your knees and then over your face. Even if you have someone handing them to you, its not worth it. There's a pretty good chance you're going to knock out your teeth if you miss.

The OP is on 65 lb per hand. What do you mean by heavy dumbbell? 80 lber? Ha Ha Ha! Who said 1RM by the way?

Lones Green
12-18-2009, 08:25 AM
The OP is on 65 lb per hand. What do you mean by heavy dumbbell? 80 lber? Ha Ha Ha! Who said 1RM by the way?

It doesn't matter how heavy it is, whatever weight it would take for him to go to a 1-3 rep max.

Give it up man. You aren't going to last long here.

n00bster
12-18-2009, 08:30 AM
It doesn't matter how heavy it is, whatever weight it would take for him to go to a 1-3 rep max.

Give it up man. You aren't going to last long here.

I don't know why you have a bee in your bonnet. You keep talking of 1-3 rep max and yet the Administrator of the site in response 18 of this thread says ... wait a minute are you actually reading this thread and following the conversation? WS4SB3 IS ABOUT A 3-5 rep max. THAT'S RIGHT 5 REPS ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

OGROK
12-18-2009, 08:37 AM
I don't know why you have a bee in your bonnet. You keep talking of 1-3 rep max and yet the Administrator of the site in response 18 of this thread says ... wait a minute are you actually reading this thread and following the conversation? WS4SB3 IS ABOUT A 3-5 rep max. THAT'S RIGHT 5 REPS ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Yet neither Joe Defranco nor Lee Hayward recommends dumbbells to be used as max effort in their programs. You act like everyone here is clueless and you are an expert, what is your squat/bench/DL?

n00bster
12-18-2009, 08:59 AM
Yet neither Joe Defranco nor Lee Hayward recommends dumbbells to be used as max effort in their programs. You act like everyone here is clueless and you are an expert, what is your squat/bench/DL?

I think the confusion is arising over the terminology "ME" in WS4SB3 which is written for lifters in Joe Defranco's words who are :-

#1 - They lack muscle mass.

#2 - They're weak.

#3 - They're inexperienced.

Technically DB Bench Press would not be a ME lift, bearing who the program is lifted for.

martin
12-18-2009, 09:08 AM
Who cares about skinny ba****ds anyway?

Bars are king for Max Effort work.

Supplement with DB work by all means. Use DB's for deload weeks.

Get stronger at everything and you can't go wrong.

OGROK
12-18-2009, 09:15 AM
I think the confusion is arising over the terminology "ME" in WS4SB3 which is written for lifters in Joe Defranco's words who are :-

#1 - They lack muscle mass.

#2 - They're weak.

#3 - They're inexperienced.

Technically DB Bench Press would not be a ME lift, bearing who the program is lifted for.

If you actually read DeFranco's program he doesn't use dumbbells as a max effort lift so I have no idea why you are quoting him and his program... And you still haven't told us what your maxes are. I think you need to spend a little more time training before you go around telling people that they are "uneducated".

n00bster
12-18-2009, 09:37 AM
If you actually read DeFranco's program he doesn't use dumbbells as a max effort lift so I have no idea why you are quoting him and his program... And you still haven't told us what your maxes are. I think you need to spend a little more time training before you go around telling people that they are "uneducated".

If you will bother to read Joe Defranco's program, you will find that he does not talk of a 1-3 rep max which many people have assumed and talk so much about in the thread. Seeing you are still interested in a pissing contest tell us what Rippetoe says on DB Bench press leaving the Skinny ba*****s for a minute.

I would advise the OP to use DBs during a deloading phase as the Admin and Martin have pointed out. DBs can be used on Shotgun training, WS4SB3 is not the only training program in the world.

JSully
12-18-2009, 02:35 PM
I have never had a problem off the chest and I contribute that to hitting dumbbells every chest session. Typically I would do 3-4 sets of either incline or flat dumbbell bench, or sometimes both depending on if I wanted to do any other chest work. You can also do paused press with dumbbells as well as alternating with one in full contraction..

Typically I would stay in the 6 rep range (because I'm lazy with heavy weights), however, my gym's dumbbells only go up to 120 so I have been doing 10-12 reps so I still get something out of it. Now that I train at home and have oly dumbbells, I'll be adjusting accordingly.



oh, and lol @ Mr. Barbaccio

JSully
12-18-2009, 02:49 PM
Barbaccio, you appear to be the thickest idiot I have come across on either here or on elitefitness. I'm going to link to your post for a working illustration of what a meathead. I don't do WS4SB3 nor do i have trouble swinging a 60lb DB, any meathead should know DBs are pretty old school. You have run out of arguments and you respond to petty namecalling, pretty childish but not totally unexpected from a meathead.

*puts on captain obvious hat*

dude, you're on a bobdybuilding/powerlifting forum in the powerlifting section. 90+% of us have bald heads and weigh over 250lbs. We're all meatheads, that's not an insult. I pride myself on being a meathead and I'm pretty sure others do too.


I think the issue is that everyone thinks you're condoning DB presses as a maximum effort exercise. I understand you mean 3-5 reps, but a 3RM with dumbbells is asking for trouble. Even a 4RM is the same. I would never purposely grab dumbbells that I wasn't sure I could get at least 5 reps with.

To further the issue, you were asked about your experience and did a good job at tapdancing around the question. The administrator you're referring to trains regularly at Westside, yet you are citing Westside to him.

Travis, you should take a video of Louie and ask if DB presses are a good ME exercise, then put the response on youtube and link it here.

n00by - regardless ME meaning 1-3 reps or ME meaning 3-5 reps is probably not the way to go. At the least 5 reps.. so you do 5 sets of 5 reps... to me, I'd rather add one more rep and call it accessory work after hitting heavy singles with something that matters.

gatorman2k6
12-18-2009, 02:51 PM
Barbaccio, you appear to be the thickest idiot I have come across on either here or on elitefitness. I'm going to link to your post for a working illustration of what a meathead. I don't do WS4SB3 nor do i have trouble swinging a 60lb DB, any meathead should know DBs are pretty old school. You have run out of arguments and you respond to petty namecalling, pretty childish but not totally unexpected from a meathead.

While I don't know Barbaccio, he's been around a while and has posted videos and competed in meets. Not that he needs proof of his powerlifting knowledge, he has it, making his argument more educated than yours. That would be why people are asking for your stats. Louie Simmons has been involved in lifting for years and has trained some of the strongest guys in the world. HE may not be the strongest, so I'm not saying the smartest is the strongest, but he has proof of his knowledge. So don't go bashing some of the proven knowledgeable lifters on this forum. Most have agreed with you, dumbbells are good, as accessory, not as a 3 or 5 rep max. Just accept it. Oh, and you are responding with petty namecalling by calling him a meathead, fwiw.