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View Full Version : Implementing A Westside/531 Mix for my Athletes (Advice Sorely Needed)



KoSh
01-05-2010, 07:46 AM
Some background:

I run the weight room at the high school I currently teach at. I'm going into my sixth year coaching, I was "co" coordinator of the weight room for 3 years and this year I got sole possession of it.

We are not allowed to mandate that the athletes show up for the weight room.

We get 3 days a week in the weight room (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday).

Last season, I got control in the late spring (May or so) and I implemented the four day split WS4SB. It worked pretty well. I think we had very solid results. But we didn't see the increase on the main lifts like we wanted. We only had the weight room 3 days a week, but I did a rotation of A/B/C then the next week it was D/A/B, then it went to C/D/A, etc.

So this season, I switched the program to a 5/3/1. The results are amazing so far, but I'm not liking the way we have to run the weight room. I've even created individual sheets for each kid so that they see exactly how much weight they have to lift every 8 weeks.

I've cut out the Military Press Days, due to the fact that we only get 3 days in the weight room. This leaves us with two lower body days and one upper body day per week.

My concern there is that if a kid misses a day (which, most kids miss at least one a week) and it happens to be the upper body day, they miss the upper body work for that week.

Generally there's two of us in the weight room and over 30 kids. It's hard to keep track of everyone. If I see someone that wasn't there on Thursday for Upper Body day and they are there Saturday, I usually try to juxtapose their deadlift work with their bench work and make it a combo day.

This is putting a ton of work on my plate. And I'd like to make things less complicated. Last year the four day rotation seemed to work, and I want to go back to that.

So, without going into too much detail and boring you with even more fluff, this is the gist of what I'd like to do:

A Day- Squat
5/3/1 Protocol

Assistance Work: Max Effort Day 5x5, 3x5, 3x3 (rotating by week)

B Day- Bench
5/3/1 Protocol

Assistance Work: Max Effort Day 5x5, 3x5, 3x3 (rotating by week)

C Day- Deadlift
5/3/1 Protocol

Assistance Work: Dynamic Effort Day 8x3, 3x10, 5x10 (rotating by week)

D Day- Military Press
5/3/1 Protocol

Assistance Work: Dynamic Effort Day 8x3, 3x10, 5x10 (rotating by week)

I don't think doing the 5/3/1 heavy every day is going to hurt them, especially when they get to the 3x5 week. And I think that the dynamic work will give pretty solid recovery time.

Every fourth week, for the deload we go pretty light in the main lifts and we add complex training for the week. The kids enjoy it and it's gotten them in much better shape.

My question is this: Is this the BEST way to go about things?

I was also thinking I could just stick with 5/3/1 on a 4 day rotation and make all assistance work 5x10 to induce hypertrophy.

I know there are some great strength coaches here, and I'd like your input. I'm pretty much alone here and don't have many people to talk to who know a lick about lifting.

Thanks for the help in advance, folks.

If you have any questions for me to help please feel free to ask.

KoSh
01-05-2010, 07:50 AM
Upon further thinking, I think I would keep two max effort days per week, regardless: The main lifts would rotate, but the days would stay the same. For instance:

Tuesday will ALWAYS be a Max Effort Day.

Thursday will ALWAYS be a Dynamic Effort Day.

Saturday will ALWAYS be a Max Effort Day.

The lifts would rotate on an A/B/C/D schedule.

or should I keep Military Press out of it and set it up so:

Tuesday is ALWAYS Squat

Thursday is ALWAYS Bench

Saturday is ALWAYS Deadlift

But each week rotate so that 2 days are dynamic/1 Max and then the next week 2 Max/1 Dynamic?

The last option would fit our schedule much better as we want to test our kids 3 times this year (We like the team building atmosphere it creates, and the competition it drives). Seeing how we do 4 week cycles with 3 of the 5/3/1 and one week is complex training. But then we get back to my original dilemma of one upper body day... Argh!

Travis Bell
01-05-2010, 11:27 AM
You've put a lot of thought into this! Nice work.

I like your second post much better than the first.

Couple things to keep in mind when developing the program, the program that is the more simple of the two is probably going to be more effective.

I think 531 is going to be a huge pain in the neck for a team, I'd throw it out completely. I know it gives you a guideline, however to be really good with it, you're going to need to spend a lot of time writing up these programs, calculating their percentages and testing maxes

With the military stuff, I would keep it out of the mix as the main lift but don't throw it out completely. Use it as an accessory movement, say 3-4 sets of descending reps starting with 10

Don't forget triceps, especially for the linemen. Shoving power does indeed start with the chest and shoulders (and upper back) but it ends with the tris.

Look at a MMA fighters punch, it's the extension of the elbows, not all shoulder

As an example once, I was at a highschool and I had their 300lb center come up to me and shove me as hard as he could. This kid was pretty big and he did put me on my heels, but not as much as he should of.

Conversely, I put some wrestling mats behind him and had him stand in front of me. I didn't take any steps closer to him, just shoved him right in the chest really quick and flipped him onto his shoulders on the mats lol.

*this was all with coaches persmission and supervision so don't go around shoving your kids lol

Point was though that you do certainly need the extensor work for linemen.

For the deadlifting, just be sure they don't go balls out and sacrafice their form for the pull. Deadlifting is essential for athletes, however it must be done properly

KoSh
01-05-2010, 11:42 AM
You've put a lot of thought into this! Nice work.

Thanks Trav. And thank you for the reply.


I like your second post much better than the first.

Which part specifically?


I think 531 is going to be a huge pain in the neck for a team, I'd throw it out completely. I know it gives you a guideline, however to be really good with it, you're going to need to spend a lot of time writing up these programs, calculating their percentages and testing maxes

This actually isn't a problem. I've done all of that already for the first 2 month phase of the program and it's working great. I have their own individual sheets that they use and keep track of themselves with. I work the ISS room here in school, so it's pretty easy for me to get all of this done. Plus I'd rather have something productive to do during school. We will be testing three times this year. We did a "Rep it out" max to start the offseason (which was against what I wanted to do, but whatever). We have one coming up at the end of January, beginning of May and mid August, 1 rep max days.


With the military stuff, I would keep it out of the mix as the main lift but don't throw it out completely. Use it as an accessory movement, say 3-4 sets of descending reps starting with 10

That's what I was doing now, except I was using the push press to help develop their explosive power. So I should stick with that concept then. Cool. Answers question 2 :)


Don't forget triceps, especially for the linemen. Shoving power does indeed start with the chest and shoulders (and upper back) but it ends with the tris.

Excellent point. I did somewhat forget about the triceps, but you're absolutely right.


For the deadlifting, just be sure they don't go balls out and sacrafice their form for the pull. Deadlifting is essential for athletes, however it must be done properly

Yeah, they're pretty good with the form. Butt down head up seems to be something I repeat about 700 times every deadlift day, but they're pretty good with it for the most part. They have a tendency to let their butts drift high, though and it drives me nuts. They tend to look DOWN. I want them looking at a point on the wall directly in front of them... Not at the bar :)

nickp8
01-05-2010, 11:55 AM
Looks like you have a pretty good plan in place. Travis thats a great point about the triceps that so many people overlook. Just make sure you are doing some rep work for hypertrophy, the extra muscle mass they put on will be well worth it.

KoSh
01-05-2010, 01:09 PM
Looks like you have a pretty good plan in place. Travis thats a great point about the triceps that so many people overlook. Just make sure you are doing some rep work for hypertrophy, the extra muscle mass they put on will be well worth it.

I was thinking of making the dynamic day more of a mix between repetition work and speed work.

And obviously, I didn't say it earlier, but ab work will be in the mix as well.

nickp8
01-05-2010, 01:18 PM
I was thinking of making the dynamic day more of a mix between repetition work and speed work.

And obviously, I didn't say it earlier, but ab work will be in the mix as well.

From what I have seen and done the rep work with weights is more beneficial than dynamic work with weights (for high school athletes). You can do all the dynamic stuff by throwing med balls and jumping, and you can still do all that stuff with the way you have it set up.

KoSh
01-05-2010, 01:24 PM
From what I have seen and done the rep work with weights is more beneficial than dynamic work with weights (for high school athletes). You can do all the dynamic stuff by throwing med balls and jumping, and you can still do all that stuff with the way you have it set up.

So maybe go higher on volume like 5x10 for hypertrophy? Or because of the age drop it down to 3x10.

I would think 3x10 would be great, simply for the fact that they are young and have plenty of gas in the tank to recover and they get 20 more reps worth of practice in.

I might just make them do Wendler's Big But Boring Variation on Rep Day.

nickp8
01-05-2010, 01:37 PM
I would maybe do 3x12-15 but you have the right idea.

BoAnderson71
01-07-2010, 07:58 PM
How come you only have three days? is that the coaches rule, schools rule, or highschool athletic association in your states rule?

KoSh
01-07-2010, 09:05 PM
Thats:

1) What the school gave us...

2) The kids won't be able to get there more often than that. It's bad enough getting the kids to find rides as it is. We're a fairly low income school with a pretty high parental unemployment rate. I'm happy that we have three days, to be honest, and that we're filling the room on those three days.

BoAnderson71
01-10-2010, 01:56 PM
oh, thats tough man. We always had four during the school year so it was easy to do a lower upper split. In the summer we could only have three so we did one upper, one lower and then a mix on the third day.

KoSh
01-10-2010, 06:45 PM
oh, thats tough man. We always had four during the school year so it was easy to do a lower upper split. In the summer we could only have three so we did one upper, one lower and then a mix on the third day.

It's not so bad. The kids are really buying in. During the summer we're upping it... I think they said we can have the weight room five days and we'd "require" the students to be there for four of them. I for one, won't feel bad about having them walk or ride their bikes to the school when it's warm out. :)

But that remains to be seen.

AnotherNumber
01-11-2010, 03:08 PM
I wish we had someone like you running our weight room! Our plan was something like: Workout a: curls, db shoulder press sitting on a ball, lat pulldown, incline cable row, leg curls, leg extensions all 10-8-6-4-2. Workout b: Lunges, bench press, incline bench, upright row, crunches all 10-8-6-4-2.

It was a joke, everyone benched four days in a row and didnt progress, and no one got any size. Total joke.

Reala
01-20-2010, 07:23 AM
did you ever work something out? :)

KoSh
01-20-2010, 07:36 AM
Yup, I'm going to run different routines. I have some guys that have been training for a few years and they came up to me and specifically asked if we could run actual Westside. I'm going to do that for about five of my athletes.

I'm going to stick with the 5/3/1 with hypertrophy work for the vast majority of the kids, but I'm going to video tape every one of their max attempts (if I can get a camera) and try to figure out where their weaknesses are when we test out so I can kind of individualize workouts. (This will be done with the WS kids as well)

For my eighth graders that start the second week of February, I'm going simple. Starting Strength. Going to start them all with the bar and have them each advance from there. None of them have ever strength trained so it gives them an opportunity to learn the lifts. Some may be using a broom stick and advance to the bar later. We'll see.

Should be interesting. I'm willing to commit a ton of time to this so we'll see what happens.

Astreocclu
01-20-2010, 08:47 PM
ITs realyl awesome that you know what your doing and that your willing to dedicate so much time to these guys. I wish my high school coaches were as knowldgeable as you guy are...Some of my coaches get mad at me for doing less then 10 reps o.o

KoSh
01-21-2010, 04:56 AM
ITs realyl awesome that you know what your doing and that your willing to dedicate so much time to these guys. I wish my high school coaches were as knowldgeable as you guy are...Some of my coaches get mad at me for doing less then 10 reps o.o

:tuttut:

Ugh.

Try to educate them. Show them stuff online. They may not want to hear it, but at least you tried. Some people just don't know any better. Give it a shot.

Astreocclu
01-21-2010, 04:20 PM
i have...they are so arrogant its impossible. If i showed them something like defrancos they would say something about "steroids" (even though the athletes there obviously arent since they have to compete in regulated sports) There is one guy thats really good, but he isnt a gym teacher, hes a science teacher and the only sport he coaches is girls volley ball. I feel that if i ever get really strong the other coaches will listen, but they wont before then thats for sure.

Hazerboy
01-27-2010, 07:45 PM
Yup, I'm going to run different routines. I have some guys that have been training for a few years and they came up to me and specifically asked if we could run actual Westside. I'm going to do that for about five of my athletes.
....

For my eighth graders that start the second week of February, I'm going simple. Starting Strength. Going to start them all with the bar and have them each advance from there. None of them have ever strength trained so it gives them an opportunity to learn the lifts. Some may be using a broom stick and advance to the bar later. We'll see.


This is the beginning of great coaching -- Listening to your athletes is key. Back in my day it was always cookie cutter programs with everybody doing the same thing.

Have you found that the more your athletes know about what they're doing, the more they commit to your program?

KoSh
01-28-2010, 05:00 AM
This is the beginning of great coaching -- Listening to your athletes is key. Back in my day it was always cookie cutter programs with everybody doing the same thing.

Have you found that the more your athletes know about what they're doing, the more they commit to your program?

First off, thank you!

Second, absolutely. We were testing a few kids who can't make it Saturday to our big testing day and I had to watch them... Over on the other side of the room, two of my guys who will be running Westside were working with other athletes who are newer to the iron game. They were giving awesome form pointers. Talking about leg drive on the bench, traps driven into the bench, touching low, etc. It's great to see the things I teach working, and them buying in.

They even commented about how I told one of them that they needed tricep work to lock out heavier weights on the bench and they relayed that to another kid who was having trouble in the tricep position. "Coach told me that my triceps are weak from that point, and to be honest with you, he's right. Tell coach you want to do more tricep work, he'll help put it in your program!!!"

It feels great, man. They look like they know what they're doing for the most part too!

KoSh
02-02-2010, 06:05 AM
Ok, so we had TREMENDOUS progress through our first testing day. Our collective bench press was pretty stagnant, though. I attribute that to the fact we only have one upper body day going on thanks to the three day split. They need more upper body work... OR they need to make sure they get their one day a week in.

So I need to brainstorm a way to do this while keeping with the 5/3/1 trend.

My first thought is to make it so that if they miss a day, they pick up on the one they missed. For instance:

Day 1 = Squat, Day 2= Bench, Day 3=Deads

If you miss Day 2 and you come in on Saturday, you don't get to automatically go to deadlift, you HAVE to do your bench day. Then Tuesday becomes Deadlift day.

Or create some kind of split where they will be working lower body 3 days/week and upper 2 days/week. Something like this:

Tuesday: Squat/Bench
Thursday: Front Squat/bodyweight work
Saturday: Deadlift/Military Press

But then if you miss a day it cripples two of your lifts. Or you could use the above formula for that and make it so that they can't skip a day...

ehubbard
02-02-2010, 07:50 AM
Ok, so we had TREMENDOUS progress through our first testing day. Our collective bench press was pretty stagnant, though. I attribute that to the fact we only have one upper body day going on thanks to the three day split. They need more upper body work... OR they need to make sure they get their one day a week in.

So I need to brainstorm a way to do this while keeping with the 5/3/1 trend.

My first thought is to make it so that if they miss a day, they pick up on the one they missed. For instance:

Day 1 = Squat, Day 2= Bench, Day 3=Deads

If you miss Day 2 and you come in on Saturday, you don't get to automatically go to deadlift, you HAVE to do your bench day. Then Tuesday becomes Deadlift day.

Or create some kind of split where they will be working lower body 3 days/week and upper 2 days/week. Something like this:

Tuesday: Squat/Bench
Thursday: Front Squat/bodyweight work
Saturday: Deadlift/Military Press

But then if you miss a day it cripples two of your lifts. Or you could use the above formula for that and make it so that they can't skip a day...

My first thought when you said you have a lot of kids that miss a day is to do an upper and a lower exercise each day. Maybe rotate Bench, Incline, and MP as the upper exercises. Or Bench, MP, and Med Ball Throws/Plyos or something like that. You may want to rotate in different bars on the squat to take some stress off those shoulders if you do go with an upper and lower movement every day. Again, just a thought. Awesome job training these kids.

KoSh
02-02-2010, 07:58 AM
My first thought when you said you have a lot of kids that miss a day is to do an upper and a lower exercise each day. Maybe rotate Bench, Incline, and MP as the upper exercises. Or Bench, MP, and Med Ball Throws/Plyos or something like that. You may want to rotate in different bars on the squat to take some stress off those shoulders if you do go with an upper and lower movement every day. Again, just a thought. Awesome job training these kids.

Love the plyo throw idea.

I would love to use different bars, but we don't have them and money is extremely right. We'll be sticking with the normal Oly bars for now, unfortunately.

Thanks for the ideas and the feedback. My initial thought of doing some kind of upper body work 2 times a week seems to be backed up by what you said above.

Thanks alot for the help. Really appreciate it.

ehubbard
02-02-2010, 08:12 AM
Love the plyo throw idea.

I would love to use different bars, but we don't have them and money is extremely right. We'll be sticking with the normal Oly bars for now, unfortunately.

Thanks for the ideas and the feedback. My initial thought of doing some kind of upper body work 2 times a week seems to be backed up by what you said above.

Thanks alot for the help. Really appreciate it.

I hear you on the money being tight. The New York Barbell Giant Cambered Bar isnt a bad option if and when the time comes ($250). Of course its a much cheaper option if you can go to one of their stores and pick it up instead of paying the exorbanant shipping. Also West Cary Barbell has a cambered bar for somewhere in the 160 range, although the bar only weighs 30 lbs.

4g64fiero
02-02-2010, 10:49 AM
If I was training intermediate athletes for only 2 to 3 days a week I would probably stick with a template like the Texas Method. That way, everyone would atleast get the volume work in on the big 3.

They would always show up for recovery, because its easier, and who doesnt like to max out? I think you would find a higher rate of participation although this particular program may not fit everyones' needs.

Just a thought. Kudos for being an awesome strength coach. I remember playing foot ball in highschool and no one even deadlifted over 405. Everything was about 3x10. Utterly pointless.

KoSh
02-02-2010, 11:10 AM
If I was training intermediate athletes for only 2 to 3 days a week I would probably stick with a template like the Texas Method. That way, everyone would atleast get the volume work in on the big 3.

They would always show up for recovery, because its easier, and who doesnt like to max out? I think you would find a higher rate of participation although this particular program may not fit everyones' needs.

Just a thought. Kudos for being an awesome strength coach. I remember playing foot ball in highschool and no one even deadlifted over 405. Everything was about 3x10. Utterly pointless.

I don't like the Texas Method for these kids. And we're getting our best attendance rate in YEARS with this set up. We had our first 500 pound squatter this past weekend. Last year, before I worked with him, he was only getting 405. Got 500 this past Saturday. It's working. I'm not screwing with the process at this point. Tweaking it, though, sure.

I think I'm going to go with something like I posted above. Combo days where I can vary the assistance work yet work both the upper and lower body on each day.

The 5/3/1 is here to stay with these kids. They love it. I'm not going against something they love.

And thanks for the kudos. I really do appreciate that. I've put in a TON of time.

KoSh
02-04-2010, 06:20 AM
Ok, so I've come up with a plan...

Day 1: Squat/Bench with mostly lower assistance and one upper assistance (this will be dependent, at first, on the individuals weaknesses

Day 2: Hang Clean/Bodyweight Athletic Movements (Or low weight complexes in which the hang clean would be automatically included)

Day 3: Deadlift/Military Press, more upper body assistance work with one lower assistance exercise (again, dependent on weaknesses)

The reasoning is simple. Day 1 and 3 are necessary. I need to combine upper/lower movements when working with a three day split so that our upper bodies start getting stronger. But I don't want to hamper lower body progress, either. So Day 2 became an issue for both upper and lower strength. By doing hang cleans for 5x3 or around that range and driving home the lighter weight point (until they get good form and increase work capacity) and only doing bodyweight exercises/complexes I think it will definitely help their conditioning and it shouldn't impair their recovery all that much. Complexes will be every other week I think as I don't want to fry their CNS, and trust me, some of these kids are brand spanking new to the weight room as of 3 months ago.

I think that leads to a smooth transition to Day 3, which is Saturday. They then have the rest of Saturday, Sunday and Monday to rest before we get going again on Tuesday. At this point, I'll probably throw speed training in on day 2 and eliminate any extra stuff on Days 1/3 (for now, until, again, we get their work capacity up).

Mike G
02-07-2010, 09:40 AM
I have a few questions, I realize you've come up with your change, but there are a few things I'm curious about.

1. On average, what have the changes been on the big three so far?

2. How long have you been running 531 with the kids?

3. Is attendance poor on the benching day?

4. What assistance work are they doing on bench day?


I love 531 and wish our coach would use it. It's such an easy set up to follow and it's easy to see progress.

KoSh
02-07-2010, 09:57 AM
I have a few questions, I realize you've come up with your change, but there are a few things I'm curious about.

1. On average, what have the changes been on the big three so far?

Average from August last year, in 2 months of lifting we added: 5 lbs to our bench, 10 to our squat, 15 to our deadlift and lost 2 pounds of bodyweight. This was with a sample size of about 30 for the testing days in August and January.

Some guys were MUCH higher. Almost everyone improved everything, one kid is over trained to the hilt because he refuses to stop working out at home. I think 3 kids stayed the same in one lift, everything else was improvement.


2. How long have you been running 531 with the kids?

2 months.


3. Is attendance poor on the benching day?

No, it's our most well attended day, but the kids whose benches didn't move DID miss that day.


4. What assistance work are they doing on bench day?

A bunch of different ones. I was using push press, tricep extensions, Incline DB Bench, DB Bench, JM Presses, Dips, etc.



I love 531 and wish our coach would use it. It's such an easy set up to follow and it's easy to see progress.

It's a pain to set up for now 40 kids. But it's worth it. That's why I went the easy route with Starting Strength for the incoming freshmen and created a log for them to write down how much weight they used.

Mike G
02-07-2010, 10:09 AM
A few more questions.

1. What did you do in season?

2. I saw you had a rep test after the season, so what did you base your working maxes on?

3. If you check their sheets, what have the reps been like on each day? Not expecting an answer, just something for you to think about.

Your improvements look pretty consistent regarding the lifts, so I'm not sure you need another upper day. Especially when the kids who didn't improve missed that day. I could see adding some more accessory work into the mix, maybe on Saturdays, but you're making some fairly significant changes to your routine.

Also, you're basing improvements on what kids did before the season. I'm guessing most of them dropped in strength during the season, so the improvements might be more significant that you're seeing. When you take into account what they are doing rep wise following 531, you might be in a really good spot and not be able to see it because you're looking at the maxes only?

As far as easy, I just meant for the kids to follow, I imagine having to set it up for 40 kids would be a pain.

KoSh
02-07-2010, 10:37 AM
A few more questions.

1. What did you do in season?

I didn't have control. They did nothing.


2. I saw you had a rep test after the season, so what did you base your working maxes on?

Their 3RM.


3. If you check their sheets, what have the reps been like on each day? Not expecting an answer, just something for you to think about.

3-5 extra in the 5/3/1 week.


Your improvements look pretty consistent regarding the lifts, so I'm not sure you need another upper day. Especially when the kids who didn't improve missed that day. I could see adding some more accessory work into the mix, maybe on Saturdays, but you're making some fairly significant changes to your routine.

I don't think it's that significant, to be honest. There'd only be the 3 531 lifts. Military Press would fall as an assistance exercise on Saturdays.

Thursday can be used to Hang Clean (This isn't an option, head coach wants it) and perhaps do complexes to help get our guys in shape.

The only major change is Tuesday where we're benching and squatting.


Also, you're basing improvements on what kids did before the season. I'm guessing most of them dropped in strength during the season, so the improvements might be more significant that you're seeing. When you take into account what they are doing rep wise following 531, you might be in a really good spot and not be able to see it because you're looking at the maxes only?

I took that into consideration as well. This is something that I thought about ad nauseum. I think I'm going to try the new way for a few weeks and see what happens. I can switch back without a problem in week 4 if what we're doing isn't working. I'm doing anything but looking at their maxes only. I study the kids sheets every time we're done with a session.

You can tell they candy ass some days. Which pisses me off. When there's 30-40 kids in the weight room with two coaches it makes it difficult to monitor everyone. I'll be damned if I'm not trying, though.

Mike G
02-07-2010, 12:12 PM
I guess I think it's significant because you're changing all three days to some extent.

All in all, what you're going to do and what I was thinking are fairly similar, I would keep the same layout you have now and add in the extra stuff where it fit, though. Squat and cleans, Bench, Deads and accessory. Complexes can be added wherever you see room. With as much time as there is before the season, conditioning isn't a huge priority. It's a matter of pairing more than anything. What's nice is that you have 40 kids to test things out on and adjust where you see fit.

Good luck with everything. I have no say in our weight room anymore for several reasons, but if I did, this is the type of routine I would implement. Basic, heavy and it pushes the kids enough to learn how to really work.

KoSh
02-08-2010, 08:19 AM
I've actually put some additional thought into it and I'm going to keep Tues/Thurs the same and tinker with Saturday. Some upper body work will go in that day as well along with the lower body work. They then have a few days to get rested up and the upper body work will be 1-2 exercises so they shouldn't be that beat down from Thursdays work.

It's going to be something that I have to monitor and adjust with.

Mike G
02-10-2010, 04:25 PM
Kosh,

Wondering if you, or anyone else reading this thread, have seen that Wendler and Angry Coach are coming out with 531 for football? No clue how the programming will change, but I'll probably get it to find out. Sounds like it should be out in a few weeks, if not sooner.

KoSh
02-10-2010, 08:07 PM
Yeah, I saw that. Waiting for it to come out. Definitely going to pick up a copy.

Travis Bell
02-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Are you still considering this a Westside type split?

KoSh
02-11-2010, 08:19 AM
Not particularly.

This is what I had them do Tuesday night for Squats:

Squat: 5/3/1
GHR: 20 reps (as many sets as necessary)
DB Lunges: 3x10
45 Degree Back Extensions (weighted): 3x10
Feet Anchored Sits: 3x10

Low Box Jumps 3x10

Conditioning: 5x50 Farmer's Walks

It's pretty much from the Beginner's Training Manual that Dave Tate and Jim Wendler put out as far as assistance stuff goes. But, I'm not running any Dynamic/ME days, so no. It's really not conjugate at all.

Next week I'm going to up the assistance stuff to 4x10 and then 5x10 in week 3. Then we deload and come back. I'm trying to monitor individual weaknesses. It's tough with that many kids for me to do it correctly, though. But I am making some changes to some individuals programs.

Travis Bell
02-12-2010, 11:20 AM
I'll throw this in here just because. I've kept up with most of this thread and I put my 2 cents in earlier, but I'll do it again

I really think the hang cleans on the second day is a big mistake. Between squatting on the first day, hang cleans on the second day and pulling on the third day, you're going to quickly run into some lower back problems with your kids.

If you absolutely HAVE to run your program like that, you'd be much better off having it as an overall hypertrophy day to help them put some size on.

KoSh
02-12-2010, 11:26 AM
I'll throw this in here just because. I've kept up with most of this thread and I put my 2 cents in earlier, but I'll do it again

I really think the hang cleans on the second day is a big mistake. Between squatting on the first day, hang cleans on the second day and pulling on the third day, you're going to quickly run into some lower back problems with your kids.

If you absolutely HAVE to run your program like that, you'd be much better off having it as an overall hypertrophy day to help them put some size on.

I changed it around a bit.

Tuesday/Thursday is the same as it ever was.

Saturday is going to be a Hang Clean/Deadlift day.

Personally, I'd rather leave the hang cleans out of it. It's a very technical lift that the kids struggle with anyways, and with me and about 50 kids I can't teach them all how to correctly do it. But it's not my call. The head coach wants me to teach it and use it, so I have to. The only alternative is to take deadlifting out of it completely and I'm a guy that believes 100% in the benefits of the deadlift.

The bigger weight moved helps to make kids feel good about their workouts, plus it's benefits as far as overall strength gain and size gain are far more important to me.

So the only option is to combine the two in one day.

I don't like it, but I have to do what I'm told.

StLRPh
03-18-2010, 07:06 PM
Did you ever get the 5/3/1 for Football? I've read some reviews and it seems to be all new material and very specific to football. Might be worthwhile for you.

KoSh
03-18-2010, 07:35 PM
yup. Got it :)

BigRic
03-21-2010, 04:58 PM
These kids should be extremely grateful of the work and thought you're putting in their workouts. I was lucky enough to have a coach, who eventually became my trainer, put this amount of thought and effort into creating a program to help me succeed. I'm forever thankful for the work he did for me and the way he helped my football career, hopefully these kids will be successful and see you in the same way.

TKisner
03-26-2010, 07:49 AM
Are you using excel for your workout sheets? I put my own workout into excel so now all I have to do is change my max and all the weights change accordingly. Its really easy to set up or if you want I can just email it to you.

KoSh
03-26-2010, 09:10 AM
Yup, got it set up in excel. makes my life slightly easier. :)

Thanks for the kudos and the help, fellas. This is a great community!