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View Full Version : When eating healthy isnt eating healthy OR The Organic Option



Skalami
01-24-2010, 07:38 AM
I really hate this "organic option" its such an annoying thing. Basically what were being told is all the produce in our super market all the meats they are pretty bad for you all that stuff you thought was the good stuff is really bad for you. Theirs nasty hormones in the meat, they cram the animals together, the fruits and veggies are covered with gallons of petroleum based pesticides.

So all this stuff weve been eating for years stuff people all around us are eating is bad for you. The chemicals from the pesticides build up in your system over years, the hormones in the meat cause your estrogen to rise... etc....

A few examples: Apples are supposedly the worst fruit for you because most apples are grafted from one type of good tasting apple so while they taste great they are a lot more prone to diseases and rotting and what not. So to counter this the growers COVER them in pesticides. Next example is the potato. Their are farmers who grow them who say they will not eat them and have separate potato plots for their own consumption.

Then the meat, we all love white breast meat so much the farmers have engineered their chickens to produce a lot more breast meat which causes them not to be able to move around and basically fall around in their own crap. Not to mention their food is literally crap and soy beans and when they die and are cut up anything left over (including feathers, beeks, feces and bone) gets ground up and fed to the cattle.

So the only option is spend twice as much (in most cases) and go out of your way to find healthy options. Or eat what 90% of the people eat.. which is apparently wrong and bad for you. Its frustrating that everyone else is doing it (which makes you think its at least somewhat ok) but then theirs these damn studies that show absolutely horrible it is for you. I guess i could just relegate myself to spending more and going more out of my way but its just one more little thing i dont want to do especially when the cheap stuff is right there and im on a budget. This seeems like it would be especially annoying/disillusioning for people that traditionally eat crap food then go on a diet which they think is healthy then find out theyre putting a ton more chemicals into their body.

Anyone else think about this crap?

Astreocclu
01-24-2010, 08:05 AM
Your gonna get alot of answers from the opposite end of the spectrum i think. Alot of people think what we eat is fine and organic isnt scientificall proven. I dont think that just sayin.

4g64fiero
01-24-2010, 08:28 AM
I have suffered from horrible migraines since I was 13. Diagnosed by a neurologist.

The only thing that has prevented them is avoiding certain forms of msg.

This has led me down a path of only eating foods from local farmers although I still drink cheese, milk and yogurt from wal mart. For me, its expensive to buy all natural foods, but we budget for it and eat only what is neccessary. Its local so I eat what is local.

You will never see me eat any commercially made soup.

What I am gettin at, is that I feel your pain. When you realize how much it really costs to provide a decent living for yourself and family, you understand how screwed we are.

It takes a while to prepare good meals that are nutritious. I have to cook everything a few days in advance if I am going to eat all natural. Our lifestyles have forsaken the time it takes to prepare natural foods. However, its not hard to cook everything ahead of time, it only takes a few hours on the weekend.

For example, I cook a couple of cups of whole grain noodles and greens/brocalli/sweet potatoes/cream of wheat and around 10 chicken breasts and a few lbs of beef to last me a few days. I also make smoothies as well with assorted local strawberries, my own oranges, other sorts of local berries. I carry my meals with me to work.

I have learned so much from just trying to eat health while avoiding something so widespreadly used.
The way I am eating now gives me more than enough protein for my 220 lbs and all the vitamins and minerals I need. I progress much faster than eating completely commercially and just substituting protein powder for naturally occurring protein. Its probably because of the extra calories, but I will take them.

I am not saying these pesticides or whatever they put on the fruit are bad, I am sure they are, but I am merely offering my sympathy for your frustration.

Skalami
01-24-2010, 08:47 AM
thats a good post 4g64fiero (wth is up with your sn?) i guess its just prioritys it seems so tough to go to a seperate store or pay extra just for what i should be eating normally ...the way stuff was probably produced 20-40years ago. Maybe if i suck it up and start doing it for a few weeks it will become more second nature, im just not there yet.

VikingWarlord
01-24-2010, 09:41 AM
The problem I have with "organic" is that it doesn't legally have to mean "natural". The FDA guidelines for what is allowed to be called Organic have some pretty wide definitions.

We will also never get any unbiased information about the options. Documentaries like Food, Inc are out there that are very obviously skewed with an anti-establishment bias but then we'll get information from the industry saying that things are fine and those claims are overstated. Obviously, they won't tell people if there are problems since it's not in their best interest.

Farm fresh produce and things are most definitely better and I will always opt for that given a chance but I'm not sure how necessary it really is. The long term effects of the current state of industrial farming just aren't known yet.

Cmanuel
01-24-2010, 01:31 PM
The problem I have with "organic" is that it doesn't legally have to mean "natural". The FDA guidelines for what is allowed to be called Organic have some pretty wide definitions.

We will also never get any unbiased information about the options. Documentaries like Food, Inc are out there that are very obviously skewed with an anti-establishment bias but then we'll get information from the industry saying that things are fine and those claims are overstated. Obviously, they won't tell people if there are problems since it's not in their best interest.

Farm fresh produce and things are most definitely better and I will always opt for that given a chance but I'm not sure how necessary it really is. The long term effects of the current state of industrial farming just aren't known yet.

USDA regulates organic, not FDA.

The OP basically touched on the issues I have with Organic. The media portrays organic to be infinitely healthier than conventional, when the data is just not there to support that. If you feel that I am wrong, I challenge you to give supporting data to this. Pesticides are not dumped by the gallon on crops, and while they do show up as residues on finished product, they are in the order of parts per billion and parts per trillion. With modern food technology practices, you have to realize that there is a theoretical risks with the chemicals, additives, etc., that go into our food supply. Think about it, we cannot test on humans, therefore there will always be theoretical risks. However, there are KNOWN BENEFITS, which is why as a society we are willing to accept those risks. The best we can do is allow Scientists to make threshold suggestions to congress (who makes the regulations) based on animal testing (which, last time I checked, actually takes into account a linear relationship for dose-response, and takes into account child sensitivity. Basically this means that the testing is very conservative).

The media hype over Organic's "healthier than conventional" nature, coupled with the 40% average higher cost in organic vs. conventional, means that many parents (who may not be able to afford a 100% organic diet) may choose an inadequate organic diet for their family vs. a conventional adequate (variety of foods, etc) diet. I have seen this first hand in some of the food extension work I have done as a student.

Also, Organic is inferior to conventional in terms of yield. We simply cannot feed the growing population of the world if we were to switch to total organic farming practices. Think about it for a minute, it makes sense. And if it doesn't read this article by Jeff Simmons (https://www.beefboard.org/news/files/Beef%20enewsletter%20files/Food%20Economics%20and%20Consumer%20Choice%20White%20Paper%200609.pdf)and see if it doesn't change your mind.

Skalami
01-24-2010, 03:36 PM
Yeah, if hypothetically all our petrol based fertilizers and pesticides were to all of a sudden not work anymore... we'd be in for some serious global meltdown type stuff ... or at the least a drastic massive effort to up the farming lands and get people growing themselves it would take the entire worlds full attention to overcome something like that.


So yeah i guess... i dont know... im not sure what if any action im going to take on this eating organic thing i kinda think its enough i/we eat 90% healthier (that is such a relative word healthy) then at least people in the US.

VikingWarlord
01-24-2010, 05:14 PM
USDA regulates organic, not FDA.

Yup, brain fart. My bad. Good catch.

4g64fiero
01-24-2010, 05:50 PM
Your gonna get alot of answers from the opposite end of the spectrum i think. Alot of people think what we eat is fine and organic isnt scientificall proven. I dont think that just sayin.

I think this guy stated it best.

There are agendas on both sides. Unless you test it yourself, organic is the only thing you can be sure about and even then you cant supposedly trust usda organic.


Just because you studied it doesnt mean your sources werent corrupt. I have never seen anyone so worried about eating organic that they starve or neglect a food group because the only source isnt organic. There is more wrong with a situation like that than people simply choosing organic. A statement like that tries to make everyone who prefers organic look like they are extremist. Not everyone who buys local foods are child neglecting idiots.

I am not on either side, I simply try to avoid a simple preservative that I have a food allergy to that seems to be in everything that isnt organic and even then its still in some organic stuff. That is why I have personal experience with researching this.

Also, cmanuel, where is this so called media overhype? Alot of companies are buying into it because they are following the trends of the consumers' purchases. You think all these companies got together and decided to stiff their own profits by producing foods that cost 40% more to make?

Capital LOL for you sir and all of us for even arguing about it.

Astreocclu
01-24-2010, 06:56 PM
I have to say im reading this link you posted cmanuel, its pretty damn interesting. Although obviously at some point people need to stop growing in population. it says..."100% or more premium for vegetables" thats shocking to me, since my brother is a whole foods vegan, who eats 90% locally grown food, eats VERY cheaply.

Cmanuel
01-24-2010, 07:17 PM
I have to say im reading this link you posted cmanuel, its pretty damn interesting. Although obviously at some point people need to stop growing in population. it says..."100% or more premium for vegetables" thats shocking to me, since my brother is a whole foods vegan, who eats 90% locally grown food, eats VERY cheaply.

Yeah its a great article. I like to show it to those who seem to think organic is sustainable in the long run.

4g64fiero
01-24-2010, 07:19 PM
Yeah its a great article. I like to show it to those who seem to think organic is sustainable in the long run.

No one said it was.

Astreocclu
01-24-2010, 08:16 PM
Yeah its a great article. I like to show it to those who seem to think organic is sustainable in the long run.

Neither is eating 5000+ calories a day with a large portion of that coming from beef.

Holto
01-25-2010, 12:01 AM
I'm a big believer in "trying" to get the most natural source of anything I eat on a regular basis. If I can't I don't stress about it too much. As was stated there is a lot to be proven about the claims that are made. I live really close to some cheap organic markets so it's very easy for me to eat a lot of Organic stuff.

Mercuryblade
01-25-2010, 12:46 PM
The only thing that has prevented them is avoiding certain forms of msg.



If you're not getting migraines that's awesome, (I've suffered from several horrible migraines in my life). But I can tell you that MSG didn't do it.

weetza
01-25-2010, 01:54 PM
Yes I think about it all the time, especially because I live with a Vegan, LOL. I don't look at it as science per se. Cows are meant to eat grass, not any part of any animal period, same goes with chickens, fish, etc. Messing with nature has to have some kind of harmful effects. Hormones, antibiotics, etc. not natural. I leave it at that. Just do what you can do. I also live in So. Fl. we have lots of farmers markets, etc. some of them you can even see where the stuff is coming from.

zen
01-25-2010, 02:20 PM
They may not "pour pesticides on by the gallon", but I am skeptical about there being only several parts per million on final products. The reason why is because the pesticides build up in the soil. You could grow all natural "organic" crops on long used farmland and still get a lot of crap in your food.
Also, if there are only a few parts per million of pesticide on your crop, how in the world is that going to stop pests? Something doesn't add up.

Potatoes are supposedly among the worst is because root vegetables absorb more chemicals and pesticides from contaminated soils. Plants would have to work harder to bring the bad stuff up into Fruiting parts of the plants. So even when potatoes are grown organically, that doesn't mean they are pesticide free if the land was previously contaminated.

Mercuryblade
01-25-2010, 02:31 PM
Yes I think about it all the time, especially because I live with a Vegan, LOL. I don't look at it as science per se. Cows are meant to eat grass, not any part of any animal period, same goes with chickens, fish, etc. Messing with nature has to have some kind of harmful effects. Hormones, antibiotics, etc. not natural. I leave it at that. Just do what you can do. I also live in So. Fl. we have lots of farmers markets, etc. some of them you can even see where the stuff is coming from.

Messing with nature is the reason why we have a lot of the incredible advancements in agriculture that keep us safer and healthier.
Not saying that some of the stuff they do to crops and or livestock may have detrimental effects, but the idea that "natural" is somehow better is just rheotoric.
Nature designed us to be fruitful and multiply, not to live a long healthy life.

Cmanuel
01-25-2010, 02:38 PM
Mercuryblade is my hero, couldn't agree with you more. Hey did you happen to read the link I posted above? I think you'd find it interesting.

Mercuryblade
01-25-2010, 02:58 PM
Mercuryblade is my hero, couldn't agree with you more. Hey did you happen to read the link I posted above? I think you'd find it interesting.

Haha thanks, I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I'm sure I'll find it interesting.


And here is an example where agriculture has gone horribly wrong: http://www.alternet.org/story/145369/shrimp's_dirty_secrets:_why_america's_favorite_seafood_is_a_health_and_environmental_nightmare

Astreocclu
01-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Messing with nature is the reason why we have a lot of the incredible advancements in agriculture that keep us safer and healthier.
Not saying that some of the stuff they do to crops and or livestock may have detrimental effects, but the idea that "natural" is somehow better is just rheotoric.
Nature designed us to be fruitful and multiply, not to live a long healthy life.

i think the longer we let ourselves go down this path, the less the rewards will becoem nd the greater the risk. I dont know whats causing it, but cancer/autism rates are raising like crazy...somethings gotta be behind it:P why not processed food ( i base this on absoutley nothing, pure speculation).

Also for that last point. isnt fruitful and multiply the same as being healthy? atleast for the first 40-50 years or so:P