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ThomasG
02-14-2010, 02:25 PM
I train

Mon:ME Upper
Tue: DE Lower
Thur:RE Upper
Fri: ME Lower

Everything has been going fine but as of lately the RE day just burns me out, even with lower volume. I really like the gains in strength and size I've seen from my RE day but I want to start cycling it with another DE day.

Has anyone ever rotated RE and DE days for upper body on a monthly basis? I was thinking rotating them every 4 weeks. Hypertrophy is a definite part of my goals.

Thoughts?

nickp8
02-14-2010, 02:41 PM
I have seen people rotate them weekly with good results. It really depends on your goal though. I know Defranco has done this and I am pretty sure I saw Wendler recommend this when he was asked a similar question.

MarcusWild
02-14-2010, 03:48 PM
I'd rotate them more often. From what I've read about speed work, once you are fast you only need to do it every 2-3 weeks to maintain your speed. If you go without speed work for 4 weeks, then you will lose speed. You can just switch every other week.

slashkills
02-14-2010, 04:50 PM
I'd recommend DE for two weeks and then RE day for two weeks. How does your assistance work look? are you getting a lot of volume?

AdamBAG
02-15-2010, 02:48 PM
I do two weeks of speed bench followed by a week of rep work. I usually work to a 5RM or maybe the heaviest weight I can do for three sets of 5.

I use bands and chains on the speed work always. The rep week is always done with straight weight.

So far I've gotten my raw and equipped bench up this way and managed to feel fairly good as I don't beat myself up too much with constant speed work.

You can also do the rep week with dumbbells only, floor press etc.

Travis Bell
02-15-2010, 03:34 PM
I stick with DE work year round. Hypertrophy can be achieved through your assistance work.

Your ME day should be low volume, high intensity (weights)

Conversely your DE day needs to be high volume, low intensity (weights)

Instead you're getting two low volume days the way you have things set up with a high and medim high intensities. Seems to me to be a quick way to overtrain.

ThomasG
02-17-2010, 09:33 PM
So when is RE appropriate travis?

NickAus
02-18-2010, 02:00 AM
You can do RE with your assistance work each training day.

Travis Bell
02-18-2010, 06:44 AM
So when is RE appropriate travis?

At Westside we never use the RE for bench

Repetition method is not just doing reps, it's several sets of doubles or triples well into the 85-90% range. Least thats the way we define it lol.

So no, using the RE method (by our definition mind you) would not be productive for accessory work.

It is very rarely used for squatting, but that is the lift that it's most used for.

ThomasG
02-18-2010, 08:11 AM
Here's the RE Template I use.

8-25 rep range.



http://www.elitefts.com/ws4sb/WS4SB.pdf

Travis Bell
02-18-2010, 09:01 AM
Here's the RE Template I use.

8-25 rep range.



http://www.elitefts.com/ws4sb/WS4SB.pdf

That would be one of the very few things about Defranco's program that I don't agree with (OH NO!! Did he really go there????) haha

I totally understand why Joe sets it up like that, but you can still accomplish all of that after you do speed upper. Reps will not teach athletes to fire quicker. They teach the muscles to repeat the same effort over and over at the same speed. So for my athletes, DE upper is a must. The rest though is hypertrophy work after so they are able to progress at the same rate. Athletes I'm referring to here are usually younger (14-17) and smaller.

The point of it is to add size and strength on to kids/athletes who need it. What's the point for someone who is already big and has a solid strength base? Those guys need to focus on the speed and use the ME day to achieve their strength.

Most people who say that ME day doesn't work, aren't correlating their DE and ME days together properly.

*Just to summarize, I'm not questioning Joe's program. I just disagree on the issue of DE bench and also feel that often people misapply the intention of his program.

ThomasG
02-18-2010, 02:38 PM
Well today was my first DE Upper day

120+double looped orangesx3x8 Kept the speed around 3seconds.

I never knew speed bench was a stabilization workout till I did it today. Makes sense though.

DB Bench
70x10-Pause reps
70x9-Pause reps

Tricep Rope Extensions
x15x2

Seated Rows
1x8
1x12

Hows that look?

I'm missing some lat work but my shoulders didn't wan't any vertical pulling or pushing today. I never have shoulder probs either I dunno why this week.

joey54
02-18-2010, 06:29 PM
Did you vary your grips? Probably should have more tricep and back work too, right Travis? Travis obviously knows this stuff much more than I do and has answered a few questions for me, so I defer to him.

Travis Bell
02-18-2010, 06:30 PM
To be honest, not high enough volume. You need at least one more tricep movement and two more back movements and then some rear delt work.

DE day needs to be high volume and low intensity (weights used) and ME day needs to be low volume and high intensity. So you need to get more overall volume in.

Make sure you're stretching and warming up properly before taking off into your speed bench. Speed bench can be abusive if you don't warm up properly, I probably should have included that earlier. My mistake.

Take a look in my log though at my DE workouts and you'll get a better feel for what I'm talking about

ThomasG
02-18-2010, 08:11 PM
Yea its definitely low volume I purposely did that cause I want to get back on track and not feel burnt out. Session felt real good today should be back to normal next week. O yea good point on the Rear delt work I usually do Reverse flies or Rear lateral raises.


As far as warming up I do light cardio for 10 mins, dislocates with bands, upper body jumping jacks and work my way into my working sets.

achilles89
02-21-2010, 05:28 AM
If one is having form issues that are exhibited on ME day (90%+ 1RM), then would DE work (50-60% 1RM) fix these problems? It is likely that some sort of sub-maximal effort or RE work would be required. 8-25 reps does not sound like RE work, people have different definintions LOL.

If we are to talk in terms of reps wouldn't RE work be from 4reps all the way to 8 reps since on ME work you are working to a 1-3RM?

AdamBAG
02-21-2010, 06:33 AM
I don't think there is really any need to get caught up on what a certain rep scheme is called. If you think that you need to do submaximal reps then do them. If they work keep them. If they don't work don't keep them.

achilles89
02-21-2010, 06:51 AM
I don't think there is really any need to get caught up on what a certain rep scheme is called. If you think that you need to do submaximal reps then do them. If they work keep them. If they don't work don't keep them.
Nobody is getting caught up on what a certain rep range is called. If you are using 90%+ on your Max day and 50% on your speed day, have you addressed the 50%-90% range?

Using Vladimir Zatsiorsky (PhD a strength scientist and professor at Penn State University in University Park, Pa.) definition :-

Repetitive Effort boils down to lactic-acid tolerance training and focuses on training muscles to produce force in a fatigued state. To circumvent sloppy form, it’s important that you stop at a point just short of complete muscle failure.
Repetitive Effort
2–5 sets 6–12 reps 70–85% 1RM

joey54
02-21-2010, 07:26 AM
So do you want someone to confirm what you have already decided to do? I am confused.

AdamBAG
02-21-2010, 11:34 AM
Nobody is getting caught up on what a certain rep range is called. If you are using 90%+ on your Max day and 50% on your speed day, have you addressed the 50%-90% range?

Using Vladimir Zatsiorsky (PhD a strength scientist and professor at Penn State University in University Park, Pa.) definition :-

Repetitive Effort boils down to lactic-acid tolerance training and focuses on training muscles to produce force in a fatigued state. To circumvent sloppy form, it’s important that you stop at a point just short of complete muscle failure.
Repetitive Effort
2–5 sets 6–12 reps 70–85% 1RM

Ha! Nobody is getting caught up on definitions and then you quote me a "definition." That's good stuff there. :)

achilles89
02-21-2010, 01:04 PM
Ha! Nobody is getting caught up on definitions and then you quote me a "definition." That's good stuff there. :)

It would be brill if you addressed the other issue raised . :)

Travis Bell
02-21-2010, 03:17 PM
It would be brill if you addressed the other issue raised . :)

Call it whatever you want man. Nobody cares.

There is no issue here. You're looking to define what the 50-90% range is. You're free to term it whatever you like.

Zatsiorsky defines it as 2-5 sets of 6-12 reps with 70-85%. Someone else may term it something else. Why do you need to have a definition for it? Just call them what they are. Reps.