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tryme
02-23-2010, 06:03 AM
even on your off days when you aint lifting? Wont it just turn into fat if you eat so much and your not using it?

Travis Bell
02-23-2010, 06:55 AM
That's a pretty vague description, but the answer is you should be eating your planned calorie requirements every day

If you are over eating, then yes it will be stored in your body as fat

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 08:36 AM
For the most part if you are eating maintenance calories or above and also eating like a pig once a week you will gain fat.

Now if you are eating submaintenance calories and are in a supercompensation state then 1 day a week of eating (sometimes 1 and a half days) as much as you want and whatever you want will have a very positive effect and allow you to gain lean muscle. So you basically have your cake and eat it to. This is called the Cycle Diet created by my mentor Scott Abel. You also take your spike day on an off day. You really need an expert to know if you are in a supercompensation state, because if you're not you will gain fat. I think its the easiest diet in the world to stick to.

I used this diet for 2 years and got great results while staying extremely lean. I plan on doing it again after my contest in April. I typically put away about 11-15,000 calories on my calorie spike day.

KoSh
02-23-2010, 08:43 AM
15,000 calories in one day? Good lord.

Off Road
02-23-2010, 09:04 AM
15,000 calories in one day? Good lord.

Good Lord is right...I'd love to see that eating menu laid out. Impressive eating.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 10:35 AM
When you are in a supercompensated state you can handle huge amounts of food without getting full. I'll see if I can find one of my old cheat days and post it.

This is also what I do if I need a calorie spike during contest prep.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 11:35 AM
Here is a spike day from last year.

1) 10 eggs over medium, 1/2 lb bacon, 8 sausage links, 5 pieces of toast with peanut butter

2) 1 lb Hamburger with bacon & cheese, 2 orders of sweet potato fries. Went home and ate half jar of Peanut butter, 2 candy bars

3) 20 buffalo wings with ranch, turkey sandwich with double meat, bacon, cheese, ranch dressing, large fries, 1 bag of BBQ rice cakes

4) 8 rolls of sushi

5) Salad with ranch, bacon, cheese, eggs, 1 loaf bread with tons of garlic butter, 15 wings, 14oz New york strip, large cookie with 2 scoops ice cream

6) 2 Large roast beef sandwiches, 2 pints ice cream with 4-5 Tbsp of peanut butter mixed in.

KoSh
02-23-2010, 11:36 AM
You're my hero.

Holto
02-23-2010, 11:50 AM
Try Me:

You need a nutrition plan that includes daily totals.

Off Road
02-23-2010, 12:32 PM
Very impressive Allen, that's a lot of food. I was reading it, thinking I could handle that, then I read "a whole loaf of bread" and I quit thinking I was tough enough.

J.C.
02-23-2010, 12:40 PM
Allen, you've really gone up in my estimation. That is serious eating. Worrying eating. I thought you were an ultra-clean guy.

I've heard of people doing surge eating for two or three days and then dropping back down to maintenance but I haven't seen one-day surges before. How do your weekly calories work out? If you are eating sub-maintenance and then have a massive excess one day what is the total weekly excess? Is it similar to eating a small amount over maintenance every day?

ThomasG
02-23-2010, 12:54 PM
Holy ****ing **** at Allen. That's just insane. Very impressive.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 01:23 PM
Allen, you've really gone up in my estimation. That is serious eating. Worrying eating. I thought you were an ultra-clean guy.

I've heard of people doing surge eating for two or three days and then dropping back down to maintenance but I haven't seen one-day surges before. How do your weekly calories work out? If you are eating sub-maintenance and then have a massive excess one day what is the total weekly excess? Is it similar to eating a small amount over maintenance every day?

This is called the Cycle Diet. You are missing the point, it has nothing to do with what the toatal weekly calories come to.Its not the same as eating slightly over maintenance either. Once you are in a supercompensation state and after being on submaintenance calories for say a week your Leptin horomones(which control testosterone, thyroid, etc..) downregulate and the calorie spike basically ramps everything back up so your in a fat burning mode and all horomones are working full force. It doesn't matter if I eat 10,000 calories or 15,000calories the key is to eat a lot and if you are in a supercompensated state you can eat tons without really getting full.

Raleighwood
02-23-2010, 01:54 PM
You eat to facilitate recovery. The more you eat, the quicker you recover. Unfortunately, if you eat too much you will gain body fat.

However, body fat is not necessarily bad... I don't have any solid research evidence for this, but strength is strongly correlated with total body mass. If you are stuck on your numbers, simply upping your body weight (over eating) may be the trick to break through the plateau.

There are diets out there (such as the Cycle Diet) that will allow you to remain lean and put on size. However, it can be pretty extreme and very challenging. You have to be one dedicated crazy-ass to attempt putting down 15,000 calories in one day.

Joe Black
02-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Allen,

Do you feel that an individuals metablism has an effect on how effective this strategy is?

For example I am on a cut right now and working with Shelby and we're cycling carbs. The last two weeks I have slipped in a big way for 1 day out of 7 and my progress has halted and I naturally have a very slow metabolism. So just wondering if you feel that perhaps people with naturally a really slow metabolism are better of having such cheat days far more rarely?

Joe Black
02-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Oh and we actually have an article on cheat days/leptin coming soon :)

J.C.
02-23-2010, 03:13 PM
Cool. Been reading stuff about the "cheat your way thin" program which has you strategically cheating to manipulate leptin. Seems like an industry craze at the moment, be good to learn more.

I wasn't thinking about it in those terms Allen, thanks for clearing it up.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 06:02 PM
There are diets out there (such as the Cycle Diet) that will allow you to remain lean and put on size. However, it can be pretty extreme and very challenging. You have to be one dedicated crazy-ass to attempt putting down 15,000 calories in one day.

The Cycle Diet is the farthest thing from extreme. You don't have to eat 15,000 calories on your spike day thats just what i can consume, the point is to take in excess calories to spike your leptin levels, which could be done with 5000 cal depending on the person and its not hard to eat 5 or even 8000 calories if you eat calorie dense foods.

pillsbury
02-23-2010, 06:08 PM
Everybody needs to read and own a copy of bodyopus by the genius Daniel duchaine I also recommend the anabolic diet book.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 06:16 PM
Allen,

Do you feel that an individuals metablism has an effect on how effective this strategy is?

For example I am on a cut right now and working with Shelby and we're cycling carbs. The last two weeks I have slipped in a big way for 1 day out of 7 and my progress has halted and I naturally have a very slow metabolism. So just wondering if you feel that perhaps people with naturally a really slow metabolism are better of having such cheat days far more rarely?

Yes an individuals meatbolism has an effect on how effective this diet can be. Past diet strategies, training protocol, and leptin sensitivity are factors that are taken into account.

Anyone can improve their Metabolic rate with proper training protocol overtime and an effective diet strategy that is sustainable and serves the body. Training protocol is often neglected when it comes to improving ones metabolism because most think of diet and cardio first, which is backwards in my opinion. For example I would not have you do just limit strength type training, I would do a Hybrid approach to induce great metabolic demand, emphasize power and strength that also require a lot of O2 and have huge amount of EPOC. Now along with this and without knowing more background info on you I would also do a stagger approach to calories and not carb cycle to get you into a supercompensated state quicker.

Now obviously one program is not the magic trick it would be proper progression from one protocol to the next and overtime change your metabolic set point. Myself as an example 2 years ago I was taken in 2500 cal in offseason to gain lean mass and this past off season I was up to 5000 because I improved my Metabolic rate with the proper protocol and diet. Now obviously everyone is different and a proper assessment is needed.

So depending on your current training protocol having cheat days can do more harm than good, you would be better off with a cheat meal here and there. Depending on your goals to would determine how strict you need to be.

Allen Cress
02-23-2010, 06:23 PM
Cool. Been reading stuff about the "cheat your way thin" program which has you strategically cheating to manipulate leptin. Seems like an industry craze at the moment, be good to learn more.
.

Its funny how now everyone is talking about leptin and cheat days when Scot discovered this 15 years ago and used the Cycle diet for many years staying in near guest posing shape year around. I remember him eating a whole carrot cake from Cheesecake factory for breakfast and that was just to start the day off.

Watch out for those diets as some of them go to extremes and make things more complicated than they need to be. I've seen so called experts talk about using cheat days but on the other days you are on low carb diets and even liquid diets on your other days. I've also seen where they think you should tapper your carbs or calories before your cheat day, they are missing the point of how this works.

Once your body has reached a supercompensation state your diet is the same day in and day out, no low carb days just submaintenance calories with spike days. My ratio when I was doing the diet was 45%pro, 45% carb, 10% fat.

aormz
02-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Next cheat day is going to be great after reading this topic! I've been keeping -500 cals a day for the last few weeks, and an Insulin spike day of hardcore eating on sundays of around 5500 cals. So far so good, lost about 5lbs without training too hard the last 2 weeks. Which is great for me b/c it's hard for me to lose an ounce really!! So I'm looking forward to hitting it hard to try and get my goal weight of 205 by June.

David Trantham
02-24-2010, 12:38 PM
hey allen , this diet is very interresting to me!!! i would love to know more about it. what actually is supercompensated state!!!!! i myself am having a problem gaining weight now, it currenty eat probably 4000-4200 calories aday. maybe i need to do something like this 10000 plus calories for a da or try the cycle diet. i currently been eating the same things and almost the same calories for about 6 weeks. what would your take on this be.

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Allen Cress
02-24-2010, 02:54 PM
hey allen , this diet is very interresting to me!!! i would love to know more about it. what actually is supercompensated state!!!!! i myself am having a problem gaining weight now, it currenty eat probably 4000-4200 calories aday. maybe i need to do something like this 10000 plus calories for a da or try the cycle diet. i currently been eating the same things and almost the same calories for about 6 weeks. what would your take on this be.

.

Basically a supercompensated state is when the body needs and uses all nutrients for fuel and you are in a fat burning mode. Also hunger, appetite, peformance in gym, and current level of condition are other factors as well to determine if you can start the diet. Also depending on ones bio-feedback you may have 1 and a half days of spiking. Like all day Saturday and one of your last meals on Wed.

To be on the Cycle diet you must be on submaintenance calories all week as well as being in a supercompensation state. The Cycle diet is used to keep one pretty lean while adding quality muscle slowly without the extra fat gain that usually comes with a full bulk diet. It is a great diet for someone who has been training for a while and has a good amount of muscle already.

There are diminishing returns when it comes to just gaining scale weight. Just because the number on the scale may go up doesn't mean its quality weight. Your approach right now is obviously more traditional type bulking with just excess calories, which is fine, just don't get stuck on the weight sclae to determine whether you are gaining quality size.

The other benefit of doing the cycle diet is when you start contest prep it is much easier to get shredded because you are already in a supercompensation state and you would more than likely do a shorter prep with re-feeds in there as well, placed correctly of course.

KatieNicole
04-25-2012, 07:25 PM
Allen, I have been looking into Scott Abel's approach and have a question... Most of the clients I've heard from are men. Does this sub-maintenance then cheat day thing work for us ladies too?

Jonathan E
04-25-2012, 09:36 PM
How do you if/when you are in supercompensated state?