PDA

View Full Version : Glycogen depletion/refeeding



Invain
02-24-2010, 06:58 PM
Has anybody looked into just how much glycogen we can burn off in an 1 or 2 long training session?

Lately I've noticed the leaner I get the quicker I deplete, and the more carbs I require on my refeeds. This week I had to switch my schedule around so I decided to see just how much it took to refill glycogen after only one workout. I had my Sunday refeed like usual, and did my back training on Tuesday. Today, (Wednesday), I would normally bench during my smaller mid-week carb-up, but I had to move training to tomorrow. I still had my mini refeed like normal, and now after having 500 - 600 grams I'm starting to tighten back up. So that's 500 grams carbs after only one training session between refeeds. I'm lifting 4 - 5 days a week and every day has decent volume/lots of work. If this is in any way an accurate indication then my body is capable of going through more glycogen than I thought, and could explain why I'm not filling up.

Allen Cress
02-25-2010, 07:51 AM
It sounds like you are in a deep supercompensated state. Are you hungry on your regular diet days? What do you typically eat on your re-feed day and are you only doing 1 whole re-feed day per week? What is your diet like on your normal diet day and what is your training right now?

JSully
02-25-2010, 08:16 AM
Has anybody looked into just how much glycogen we can burn off in an 1 or 2 long training session?


Lyle McDonald actually has a forumla in his keto book that you can use to calculate how much glycogen is depleted per set of x amount of reps.. It's a 350page book though so it might take a while to find it.. try posting on his forum board, there are alot of knowledgable members there as well..

Daniel Roberts
02-25-2010, 08:49 AM
If i recall it's about 2.5g of carbohydrate per work set to replenish glycogen lost in a session. So 10 work sets requires 25g of carbohydrate to replace the glycogen lost to those sets.

Invain
02-25-2010, 11:19 AM
It sounds like you are in a deep supercompensated state. Are you hungry on your regular diet days? What do you typically eat on your re-feed day and are you only doing 1 whole re-feed day per week? What is your diet like on your normal diet day and what is your training right now?

Normal diet days are no carbs, 60/40 Calories from Fat/Protein. I have a mid-week carb-up on Wednesday where I pretty much eat as much as I can in 6 hours, and then on Sunday I have a normal full day refeed, which usually lasts around 12 hours. I try to keep refeeds as clean as possible, a typical Sunday would be ~ 1200 grams carbs and less than 60 - 80 grams fat. I've been trying to keep sugar/fructose as low as possible but obviously it's difficult when trying to take in a large amount of carbs in a small amount of time. Typical foods are dextrose based candy, pasta, fat free milk, cereal, potatoes, oatmeal, fat free ice cream, low fat cakes/brownies, rice, etc.

Training is on average 4 days a week, mainly powerlifting style, focusing on heavy compound movements and then adding in extra volume on accessory work.

Invain
02-25-2010, 11:20 AM
If i recall it's about 2.5g of carbohydrate per work set to replenish glycogen lost in a session. So 10 work sets requires 25g of carbohydrate to replace the glycogen lost to those sets.

I'm sorry but there's no way this is accurate. Define a "work set". Obviously I'm going to use more energy doing max effort 10 rep squats as opposed to doing a light set of curls.

Allen Cress
02-25-2010, 11:58 AM
My recommendation would be to keep your mid-week carb day as is except eat more quality foods instead of fat free ice cream, candy or anything sugar based. Stick with breads, pasta, potato, rice and don't be too concerned with keeping fat low as long as you stick with higher quality foods.

On your Sunday re-feed eat anything and everything regardless if it has fats in it or not. The goal is to eat as much as possible but obviously don't force feed yourself. This will induce greater replenishment and increase your leptin levels as well. You won't get fat in one day!! It preferable to have your re-feed on an off day.

Daniel Roberts
02-25-2010, 12:11 PM
You need me to define a 'work set'? Seeing as you asked nicely, once again, IIRC Lyle's stuff a work set is a set which takes approx 30-45sec to complete, and no 'light' doesn't count. And yes you're going to use more glycogen doing a 10RM squat vs pink dumbell curls, that's why I didn't make any concession to it in my post, 'obviously'.

Look up some physiology texts about anaerobic energy pathways and see for yourself.

Invain
02-25-2010, 02:48 PM
You need me to define a 'work set'? Seeing as you asked nicely, once again, IIRC Lyle's stuff a work set is a set which takes approx 30-45sec to complete, and no 'light' doesn't count. And yes you're going to use more glycogen doing a 10RM squat vs pink dumbell curls, that's why I didn't make any concession to it in my post, 'obviously'.

Look up some physiology texts about anaerobic energy pathways and see for yourself.

I'll definitely look into it, I have Lyle's keto book back home.

And yes I understand the energy pathways, I'm a biochemistry major.

Invain
02-25-2010, 02:50 PM
My recommendation would be to keep your mid-week carb day as is except eat more quality foods instead of fat free ice cream, candy or anything sugar based. Stick with breads, pasta, potato, rice and don't be too concerned with keeping fat low as long as you stick with higher quality foods.

On your Sunday re-feed eat anything and everything regardless if it has fats in it or not. The goal is to eat as much as possible but obviously don't force feed yourself. This will induce greater replenishment and increase your leptin levels as well. You won't get fat in one day!! It preferable to have your re-feed on an off day.

Thanks for the info so far Allen. I ordered some dextrose and waxy maize yesterday and I'm gonna start getting maybe half of my carbs from those sources, as I definitely want to cut out as much sugar as possible.

Allen Cress
02-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the info so far Allen. I ordered some dextrose and waxy maize yesterday and I'm gonna start getting maybe half of my carbs from those sources, as I definitely want to cut out as much sugar as possible.

Your body will work and use whole food sources much better, no need to spend money on those supplements. Not to say they can't be used just better places to spend your money.

Invain
02-25-2010, 04:47 PM
Your body will work and use whole food sources much better, no need to spend money on those supplements. Not to say they can't be used just better places to spend your money.

I know whole food is always optimal, but honestly, my stomach does not like starch. I've tried doing refeeds with only quality sources like rice and oats and it went really bad. Lately I've been supplementing with amylase every time I eat a high carb meal and it's worked wonders. I still need to utilize sources that digest faster though, or I wouldn't even come close to eating enough.

I can eat a pounds of meat in a sitting and feel fine, while 2 cups of rice makes me feel like bloated **** and sits in my stomach for hours.

Allen Cress
02-25-2010, 10:04 PM
I know whole food is always optimal, but honestly, my stomach does not like starch. I've tried doing refeeds with only quality sources like rice and oats and it went really bad. Lately I've been supplementing with amylase every time I eat a high carb meal and it's worked wonders. I still need to utilize sources that digest faster though, or I wouldn't even come close to eating enough.

I can eat a pounds of meat in a sitting and feel fine, while 2 cups of rice makes me feel like bloated **** and sits in my stomach for hours.

This is why its ok to mix more refined carbs such as mini rice cakes, bread, bagels, pastas on that day. THis is also why I said to eat anything and everything on your sunday re-feed. Good, bad and everything in between to make sure you get in enuff calories,