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ThomasG
03-14-2010, 03:06 PM
I want to compete in a AAPF competition coming up. This is a drug tested meet. I am on Testosterone replacement therapy prescribed by my doctor which keeps my hormone levels around 800 mg/dl(Normal for my age.) AAPF states t/epiT ratio greater than 6 will fail. I have no idea wtf that means. Am I going to fail the drug test?

Any input is appreciated

Thanks!

icedutah
03-14-2010, 03:13 PM
You will need to lift APF not AAPF.

Travis Bell
03-14-2010, 03:17 PM
You will need to lift APF not AAPF.

^ This. You would not be considered natural or drug free

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 03:21 PM
Yea, seems almost pointless too though cause I would not be competitive against guys that are on AAS.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Is this the case in all drug tested federations?

Travis Bell
03-14-2010, 03:30 PM
Only one that I can think of is NASA that allows for hormone replacement.

Honestly man, I really would just compete in the non tested class.

I'm completely drug free and always have been and just compete in the non tested class. I got tired of paying extra for drug tests and whatnot to prove what? To myself that I'm drug free? Just lift and do the best you can.

I found for myself, when I focused less on who was taking what, I focused more on getting strong and less about making excuses for my own weakness.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 03:38 PM
Travis I don't really don't understand how I can even come close to guys using AAS. I don't see myself having success competing against guys on steroids. You don't see natty bbers competing against other bbers on steroids, why in powerlifting?

JK1
03-14-2010, 03:48 PM
Travis I don't really don't understand how I can even come close to guys using AAS. I don't see myself having success competing against guys on steroids. You don't see natty bbers competing against other bbers on steroids, why in powerlifting?

Because strength is a product of the work and nutrition you take in.......

I quit competing in drug tested federations for the same reasons Travis stated. I'm an insulin dependant diabetic. Everyone knows 'Slin is the new miracle "bodybuilding drug".....the "Most anabolic hormone there is" and a bunch of other BS posted on the internet by people who really know nothing. It doesn't matter its something I have to take or I'll die. I don't want to deal with the bull**** of having to get a doctors note approved by the federation officials (I've been known to have to take insulin injections in the warmup room depending on where my blood glucose levels are during a meet), the potential of my medical records getting raked over the coals and all the other bull**** that could be associated with it. My medical records are my personal information, not something for public access. Thats also one of the reasons I keep competing in pretty much nothing but IPF approved singleply gear in a non-drug tested federation.

If you have a definite need for HRT--ie you can produce medical records stating that its needed for legitimate hormone deficiency and you can get a certified letter from your doctor (ideally a board certified endocrinologist, not just a General Practitioner), you should be able to get approval to compete within the AAPF. The thing is a T/E ratio of >6 should not be an issue because if you are only on HRT with your testosterone in a normal range (even high normal like you say you are) you should not get beyond those numbers. Its also weird to me that they use the cutoff as >6, because normal teenage males can have values of 6-10, but thats another topic.

My advice to you, dont' focus on what the other lifters are doing. Focus on what you can do and work your ass off to be the best that you can possibly be. If you take that attitude you will see your numbers get better and you might surprise yourself on just how good you end up doing.

JK1
03-14-2010, 03:52 PM
Is this the case in all drug tested federations?

From what I can remember when I checked on this a couple of years ago, no, its not. There are provisions in many federations that allow for legitimate medical therapy. Lifters will probably have to produce medical records for review and can expect to have several hoops to jump through though to be able to do it.

The thing is if a person is on HRT with Test levels in the normal range, the T:E ratio should not be >6. As far as I know takes more advanced tests to detect synthetic tesosterone in the system than what is done at pretty much all powerlifting meets (its a second tier testing with Olympic testing, only done after the T:E ratio is detected as being abnormal). I'm not sure if it would even produce a positive test.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 04:03 PM
Very informative post JK1, thanks! I can also cut my test off a couple days before the meet. I am on the Gels, not the injections.

icedutah
03-14-2010, 05:05 PM
Because most powerlifters compete for fun and PR's. Not sure how a BB'er would do that.
If you're going to the upcoming Utah AAPF/APF meet then there is nothing to worry about. Enter the APF division and lift big and have fun.

You don't see natty bbers competing against other bbers on steroids, why in powerlifting?

Ropeburn
03-14-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm completely drug free and always have been

Weren't you featured in this documentary, admitting to steroid use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8nOKJTL6Tg

EDIT: 3:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EEYruyH3Zk&feature=fvw

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 05:20 PM
Because most powerlifters compete for fun and PR's. Not sure how a BB'er would do that.
If you're going to the upcoming Utah AAPF/APF meet then there is nothing to worry about. Enter the APF division and lift big and have fun.

Yes I am. And part of fun to me is winning.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 05:21 PM
Weren't you featured in this documentary, admitting to steroid use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8nOKJTL6Tg

EDIT: 3:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EEYruyH3Zk&feature=fvw

That's not Travis.

Ropeburn
03-14-2010, 05:25 PM
That's not Travis.

Most sincere apologies then. YOu can see how I'd be confused though, as even Lou appeared in the video.

Travis Bell
03-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Weren't you featured in this documentary, admitting to steroid use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8nOKJTL6Tg

EDIT: 3:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EEYruyH3Zk&feature=fvw

That would be Mark, not me.

*Edit - just to clarify, Mark and myself are not actually related. We just share similar good looks.

Thomas - you set your own goals. If you tell yourself over and over that you cannot compete with other people, you won't.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 05:30 PM
My mindset is I can't have a competitive edge in pling if I compete against people on steroids, just how it is in most sports. Is this different in power lifting?

icedutah
03-14-2010, 05:55 PM
Yes powerlifting is different. I know most guys I lift with would rather take 4th place, no trophy BUT get a new meet PR than to take 1st place but getting no PR's. Doing both is great of coarse. But at most meets there is not much competition anyways since there are so many divisions. So the best competition is always going to be against yourself and not against some other guy.

Travis Bell
03-14-2010, 08:41 PM
My mindset is I can't have a competitive edge in pling if I compete against people on steroids, just how it is in most sports. Is this different in power lifting?

Dude no offense here, but you aren't natural. That's the bid you took when you got on hormone replacement.

Whether or not it brings your hormones up to "normal" levels is beside the point. It's still synthetic hormones.

I'm definitely not saying it's wrong, but to say you're at a disadvantage because someone else is taking more? That is really lame.

Saying you could quit the androgel a week or two before so you pass the test is bogus as well. That's trying to beat the test pure and simple and is a huge reason I quit competing in tested meets. Just be honest. Accept where you're at.

Don't make excuses for your weaknesses. YOU decide what your edge is or what it isn't. I've never felt my decision to stay clean has held me back in the least bit. I train hard, train smart and use my gear to close the gap. If I get beat sometimes, it happens. I just focus on being stronger next time.

Like I said earlier, if you're mindset already is stuck that you won't have a competitive edge if you compete against someone who is using gear, then you're already shooting yourself in the foot.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 09:04 PM
Whether or not it brings your hormones up to "normal" levels is beside the point. It's still synthetic hormones.
.

I completely disagree. What's the difference between me who has never touched AAS who has a health misfortune that is on TRT to bring their hormones to normal levels and the guy that is natural at the same level as me? Just that I synthetically bring my levels to his. How is that unfair? It was not my choice to have low test levels I've never messed with any type of hormones.

What about the guy with diabetes? I guess it would be cheating for him too. My mindset was that it's impossible to have a competitive edge against people on AAS. From post's in this thread it seem as if a natty pler can compete competitively against plers on AAS, which is good to hear.

Chris Rodgers
03-14-2010, 09:05 PM
Dude no offense here, but you aren't natural. That's the bid you took when you got on hormone replacement.

Whether or not it brings your hormones up to "normal" levels is beside the point. It's still synthetic hormones.

I'm definitely not saying it's wrong, but to say you're at a disadvantage because someone else is taking more? That is really lame.

Saying you could quit the androgel a week or two before so you pass the test is bogus as well. That's trying to beat the test pure and simple and is a huge reason I quit competing in tested meets. Just be honest. Accept where you're at.

Don't make excuses for your weaknesses. YOU decide what your edge is or what it isn't. I've never felt my decision to stay clean has held me back in the least bit. I train hard, train smart and use my gear to close the gap. If I get beat sometimes, it happens. I just focus on being stronger next time.

Like I said earlier, if you're mindset already is stuck that you won't have a competitive edge if you compete against someone who is using gear, then you're already shooting yourself in the foot.


:withstupi:


Also, just because you compete non-tested does not mean all the other competitors are on something.

Chris Rodgers
03-14-2010, 09:09 PM
I completely disagree. What's the difference between me who has never touched AAS who has a health misfortune that is on TRT to bring their hormones to normal levels and the guy that is natural at the same level as me? Just that I synthetically bring my levels to his. How is that unfair? It was not my choice to have low test levels I've never messed with any type of hormones.

What about the guy with diabetes? I guess it would be cheating for him too. My mindset was that it's impossible to have a competitive edge against people on AAS. From post's in this thread it seem as if a natty pler can compete competitively against plers on AAS, which is good to hear.

Wat about the guy who is naturally a little higher than you, but he is not on TRT. Then you go on TRT and have a higher level than him? Is that fair?

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 09:17 PM
Wat about the guy who is naturally a little higher than you, but he is not on TRT. Then you go on TRT and have a higher level than him? Is that fair?

Lol, now that is getting a little ridiculous. The difference of 100 mg/dl and 1000 mg/dl is a big difference.

If you think someone competing at normal level is cheating, then simply put I disagree.


The way the test works is <6 even with my gel I don't believe I'm going over that. Since my hormones are at normal levels. I need to figure out how to convert mg/dl to t/epiT. If its over 6 I'll just compete APF.

Travis Bell
03-14-2010, 09:26 PM
I completely disagree. What's the difference between me who has never touched AAS who has a health misfortune that is on TRT to bring their hormones to normal levels and the guy that is natural at the same level as me? Just that I synthetically bring my levels to his. How is that unfair? It was not my choice to have low test levels I've never messed with any type of hormones.

What about the guy with diabetes? I guess it would be cheating for him too. My mindset was that it's impossible to have a competitive edge against people on AAS. From post's in this thread it seem as if a natty pler can compete competitively against plers on AAS, which is good to hear.

Alright, I'll try this one more time and then I'm done.

I'm really not trying to beat you up for taking HRT, for the record there is nothing wrong with HRT and in my personal opinion, steroid use is for each individual person to decide. Nothing wrong with using.

The problem becomes when people who use compete in drug tested feds. That's a big problem.

HRT is not natural. Any way you slice it. The diabetes comparison is pointless. Nobody tests your blood sugar levels at the end of a meet.

Unfortunately the rules don't dictate that "if you have a health problem you get a pass." You're either drug free or not. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

Point being I think it's lame to try and compete in a drug tested fed when you're on something. If you think that taking more will help you that much, get some more and take it.

Just my 2 cents though. You seem to have your mind made up.

No offense intended though. Just calling it the way I see it.

ThomasG
03-14-2010, 09:50 PM
I appreciate your input Travis. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on the HRT point. The test is if you are over t/epiT<6. If my gel brings me above that then I will compete APF rather AAPF. If not I will take the drug test unaltered and compete AAPF. Simple as that.

icedutah
03-14-2010, 10:16 PM
The testosterone gel was created originally to beat the tests. I think Victor Conte was the guy who made it if I remember correctly from the whole baseball thing. So no matter how much of the gel you use you probably will pass the test with a ratio less than 1:6 since the gel has epitestosterone in it. Which helps bring the ratio back to 1:1.

Like Bell I could care less what someone uses. Just lift in the correct league.

thewicked
03-14-2010, 10:31 PM
i'm with travis..

if whatever test level your body is at at the moment isn't solely derived from whatever your nutz are giving you and it's manipulated by some outside source, you're not natural..

that being said everyone's natural level of testosterone is different..you're at no greater advantage or disadvantage wether you're competing in a drug free or otherwise organization. AAS doesn't just make you instantly strong, you still have to put in your hard work and time so either way, you've gotta pay your dues. I'd worry about that more than some juice monkey taking a few doses and taking a meet from under your nose.

JK1
03-14-2010, 11:17 PM
The testosterone gel was created originally to beat the tests. I think Victor Conte was the guy who made it if I remember correctly from the whole baseball thing. So no matter how much of the gel you use you probably will pass the test with a ratio less than 1:6 since the gel has epitestosterone in it. Which helps bring the ratio back to 1:1.

Like Bell I could care less what someone uses. Just lift in the correct league.

Thats not true as I understand the development of transdermal testosterone for TRT. The skin acts as a reservior for the testosterone in the gel, so it leads to sustained levels more like normal production. Depending on the hormones used, you can get "biologically identical" replacement gels too. The gel is recommended by many physicians because it provides much more physiologic levels vs the up and down hormonal swing you see with bi-weekly injections. Unfortnately, there are several factors which affect absorption of the gel and for some individuals it just doesn't work. Conte took that already existing biotechnology and utilized it for transdermal delivery of his drugs. He didn't develop it.

All of that said, Travis points out the exact reason why I won't compete in a tested federation (and while they won't make me do a blood sugar, don't try to tell me someone sticking a needle in their abdomen at a meet isn't going to cause a big ****storm among the drug-free for life crowd, it will, no matter whats in that syringe). People have their opinions of hormone replacement (whether it be testerone or insulin or even thyroid hormone) and some individuals get pretty emotional about it with little regard for the medical condition that dictates the need for that product. It just isn't worth the pain in the ass that comes from it by trying to compete in a drug tested federation.

ehubbard
03-15-2010, 06:13 AM
Don't be an *********. Lift in the APF.

ThomasG
03-15-2010, 07:43 AM
I emailed the judge he said as long as I'm not above not <6 I'll be fine but to be safe I should compete in the APF. So whether I'm on trt is besides the point it's if I'm <6. So all the nonsense about HRT in this thread is bull*****.

I'll probably lift in the APF anyway as this is my first competition. I just want to go for the experience and to learn. I won't even be using gear, I'm going raw. This comp will give me a feel on what I want to do with powerlifting such as if I want to compete in tested or non tested and if I want to compete with gear.

AdamBAG
03-15-2010, 07:52 AM
I believe there is a great quote by Louie which states (I'm paraphrasing): "A good lifter will tell me what his lifts were at the meet and whether he set personal records. A bad lifter will tell me what he placed."

Worry about yourself. Unless you are about to compete at WPC or IPF Worlds etc. then where you place does not matter. Placing only matters at the top competitions or if $ is on the line. Neither is the case here. Especially for your first meet.

As far as the testing goes, I think you should compete APF. You are taking a foreign substance. Whether it is a Rx or not does not matter. I have a training partner on a similar prescription and he has always competed APF because he felt it wasn't necessarily fair to the other lifters.

Don't put limits on yourself because of what somebody else may or may not be taking. I totalled elite drug free. My training partner Steve totalled elite drug free and deadlifted 730 at the Pro-Am! My training partner Henry has squatted 1,000 drug free!

Don't put limits on yourself man! Just train, compete and love it!

ThomasG
03-15-2010, 07:55 AM
I believe there is a great quote by Louie which states (I'm paraphrasing): "A good lifter will tell me what his lifts were at the meet and whether he set personal records. A bad lifter will tell me what he placed."

Worry about yourself. Unless you are about to compete at WPC or IPF Worlds etc. then where you place does not matter. Placing only matters at the top competitions or if $ is on the line. Neither is the case here. Especially for your first meet.

As far as the testing goes, I think you should compete APF. You are taking a foreign substance. Whether it is a Rx or not does not matter. I have a training partner on a similar prescription and he has always competed APF because he felt it wasn't necessarily fair to the other lifters.

Don't put limits on yourself because of what somebody else may or may not be taking. I totalled elite drug free. My training partner Steve totalled elite drug free and deadlifted 730 at the Pro-Am! My training partner Henry has squatted 1,000 drug free!

Don't put limits on yourself man! Just train, compete and love it!

That's awesome! Thank you for the insight on powerlifting without AAS.

AdamBAG
03-15-2010, 08:21 AM
That's awesome! Thank you for the insight on powerlifting without AAS.

Using or not is up to you, I just don't want you to assume that every guy that competes untested is using.

Sean S
03-15-2010, 08:44 AM
What does the rulebook actually say about testosterone? Does it say TRT is OK with a medical exception or is OK as long as it doesn't elevate the test:epitest ratio? Remember the test:epitest ratio is simply a tool to detect drug use and the most drug tested federations ban drug use, not just a high test:epitest ratio.

Mick Manley
03-15-2010, 08:48 AM
aapf rocks!

icedutah
03-15-2010, 09:08 AM
I bet you could dump the whole bottle of that gel on yourself and still pass a drug test. But bottom line is if you take any synthetic hormone you are not natural and need to lift non-tested.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Here you go. From http://www.steroid.com/the-cream.php site.

The Cream is the slang name given by Victor Conte to a transdermal designer steroid, containing testosterone and epitestosterone, designed by BALCO to avoid detection on drug tests. While testosterone is certainly an anabolic steroid, epitestosterone is simply an inactive epimer of the parent hormone hormone. The reason the latter would be included in “the cream” along with testosterone is to beat doping tests based on the testosterone:epitestosterone ratio.

Roughly 50% of epitestosterone production in human males is from the testes (1), the rest being produced via other pathways (2). In general a 1:1 ratio is a normal testosterone:epitestosterone ratio. Both testosterone as well as epitestosterone (3) are able to be tested for on a doping control test.

All good so far, right?

Alright, well, when you use exogenous testosterone, you screw up that ratio I was just talking about. So a ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 means your testosterone levels (as compared with your epitestosterone levels) are on the high side. If this ratio gets too high, it is a red flag on a doping test, and a pretty good indicator that someone is breaking the rules. The Tour de France considers a 4:1 ratio a failing level, while the NFL had considered a 6:1 ratio to be failing (as does the IOC).

Honestly, most people would pass a doping test if they were only using small amounts of injectable testosterone suspension on a daily basis. But you can use far more of “the cream” than you would ever be able to use of a typical testosterone based drug, and still test clean. I would suspect that up to 100mgs every day or every other day could easily be used, and still result in a clean blood test. This would be more than enough (for example) to provide an edge to an athlete attempting to shave milliseconds off their 100m sprint time, or even set a lifetime homerun record (*cough cough*). In practical terms, it will provide all of the advantages of testosterone without any of the detectability.

So as you probably guessed, “the cream” is really only something that would be of value to drug tested athletes. Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, and Gary Sheffield all reportedly used the cream, and received a very nice ergogenic boost from it. A cream like this would be very useful for any athlete attempting to boost their recovery ability, muscle mass, and strength levels, without getting caught. For the recreational bodybuilder, and those not subject to blood tests of the athletic variety, it’s a waste of money. It’s not going to produce extremely high testosterone levels unless you are virtually bathing in the stuff, and it’s certainly not going to provide levels high enough to be considered on par with 2-3mls a week of a decently dosed testosterone injection.

If you’re not going to be tested, why take a product that is only designed to provide an advantage to those attempting to beat a drug test. One of my friends has likened this to flying a stealth bomber over a country that doesn’t have radar.
Obviously you aren’t going to find “the cream” (the BALCO version) available anywhere on the Black Market, but if you are a drug tested athlete and can get your hands on something similar, it’s going to be pretty expensive.


References:

1. Secretion by the human testis of epitestosterone, The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology, 1993 Feb;44(2):171-7.
2. Characterization of 17α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity (17α-HSD) and its involvement in the biosynthesis of epitestosterone, BMC Biochemistry 2005, 6:12, 14 July 2005.
3. Detection of Epitestosterone Doping by Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry, Clinical Chemistry, 2002;48:629-636.

ThomasG
03-15-2010, 09:25 AM
Interesting info however "The Cream" is not the the same as Androgel. This is directly off the androgel bottle.

Contains: Testosterone USP, Carbormer 980, Ethyl alcohol 67.0%, isoprophyl myristate, sodium hydroxide, and purified water.

The gel is 1% Test.

I am competing APF this comp anyhow. If I feel I need to compete AAPF later on I will take the drug test unaltered, and not lowering of my gel as I feel that would be unethical.

I've really enjoyed the all the information in this thread. When starting this thread my mindset was its impossible to compete with lifters that are on AAS and everyone who competed in the non drug tested where on AAS. I see that's not the case and I'm glad I can have a future in non tested federations.

Mick Manley
03-15-2010, 09:49 AM
i did aapf, and i wouldnt have been pissed if sumone was on hrt competing against me. But hey thats just me.

BigTallOx
03-15-2010, 11:49 AM
If you're going to the upcoming Utah AAPF/APF meet then there is nothing to worry about. Enter the APF division and lift big and have fun.

Yes I am.

Cool, I'll be there too. I'm looking forward to it.

IMHO, just lift APF. If you get tested and you just happen to test higher than 6 for the T/epiT ratio then you'll never be able to lift AAPF again. Just know that stuff like DHEA is on the banned list too. It's just easier to lift APF, IMHO.

Invain
03-15-2010, 12:16 PM
I'm going to go against the grain here and ask, what's the point in competing if you're not worried about placing well? Why do I need to pay entrance fees and membership fees to hit a PR? I can do that in the gym. I understand some will say actual competition lifts are different than gym lifts, but I train with a group of guys that are all pretty serious/have competed and we do mock meets every once in a while, with people judging/calling depth. In a situation like that, a squat is a squat, and a deadlift is a deadlift, I don't care if it's in the gym or in front of a crowd of people during a meet.

I lift for MYSELF every time I walk into the gym, lifting in an actual meet is for the COMPETITION.

douglasoh5
03-15-2010, 12:50 PM
Dude if your so worried about a trophy compete in 1 of the 1009847849 divisions. cause the actual STRONG ppl compete in the OPEN divison. So you wont have to worry about about lossing to ppl taking more drugs than you. Cause whether you like it or not you are an enhanced lifter rite now. Just cause ur natural test levels are low what makes you think all the other dudes test isnt in the dumpster.

icedutah
03-15-2010, 01:01 PM
Invain, I understand your point. But to me I feel it doesn't really count unless I get that comp lift PR in a meet with white lights from judges. I keep track of meet PR's and my gym PR's. My meet Pr's feel so much better. We too often hear about these guys in some gym that did an 800 lb bench, 1200 squat or whatever but they have no proof. The meet is our proof.

BigTallOx
03-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Invain, I understand your point. But to me I feel it doesn't really count unless I get that comp lift PR in a meet with white lights from judges. I keep track of meet PR's and my gym PR's. My meet Pr's feel so much better. We too often hear about these guys in some gym that did an 800 lb bench, 1200 squat or whatever but they have no proof. The meet is our proof.

That's exactly right. It's documentation of progress by qualified people.

BigTallOx
03-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Just cause ur natural test levels are low what makes you think all the other dudes test isnt in the dumpster.

Oh no, now we're going to have divisions based on weight, age and testosterone levels. Wooo hooo, maybe after they add that, they'll add length of limbs or distance bar has to travel. ( That's a joke )

Mick Manley
03-15-2010, 01:16 PM
I'm going to go against the grain here and ask, what's the point in competing if you're not worried about placing well? Why do I need to pay entrance fees and membership fees to hit a PR? I can do that in the gym. I understand some will say actual competition lifts are different than gym lifts, but I train with a group of guys that are all pretty serious/have competed and we do mock meets every once in a while, with people judging/calling depth. In a situation like that, a squat is a squat, and a deadlift is a deadlift, I don't care if it's in the gym or in front of a crowd of people during a meet.

I lift for MYSELF every time I walk into the gym, lifting in an actual meet is for the COMPETITION.

its still not the same.

mastermonster
03-15-2010, 04:56 PM
Here's my opinion. If the Doc has you at 'normal' (and that's a relative term. Normal can be from as low as 269 to 1000 in some) you should be playing on an even playing field with the other tested lifters. I'd have no prob knowing you were on the dose your doc put you on and you passed the test. That simple. If you and/ or your doc are trying to push the envelope with how high of a level you could still pass with you'll probably pop the test and then it will have done what it is in place to do; even the playing field. In the AAPF the policy is simple and very fair. If you fail one, you have to lift APF for life. So if you feel confident at 800 (kinda' high normal) then lift AAPF. If you are the high coefficient or random test (which ever criteria they do) and you pass you are within range and OK. If you pop, the APF has sovled the delimma for you in the future...lifetime AAPF ban. Then enjoy the APF...it's a great place to lift.

The only real gray area in this is with Masters competition. The delimma? What is normal levels for a master as the levels drop with age. Now the AAPF playing field may not be level if you're on HRT. I myself had rather take care of my health and well being and compete APF. I have no desire to get old and shrivel at a faster rate just to say "Hey! I'm drug free!" while I doddle around with my cane! LOL! What I'm saying is at masters age groups, I don't think it would be an even playing field with me on HRT and another 54 year old who is not (if I'm maintaining a 600 level and he has maybe 150-200 or less); competing in a tested meet...even though I'd likely pass the TE:ratio of 6:1. 40-44 might still be even but at some point up the ages it won't be.

SoCoBarbell
03-15-2010, 07:55 PM
I feel for your situation. But, Drug-Free is DRUG FREE. I have no beef with people who choose to use. I understand it wasn't a choice you made it was your doctor. Unfortunately God didn't give you the perfect body. Your on steroids no matter how you justify it.

Others who compete in powerlifting have to overcome their short comings too. To tall, to skinny, thin bones, weak tendons do you see what I'm saying? Noone has the perfect package. Mick Manley chimed in here. Have you ever looked at his meet #s ? If not go to Big Irons site and look. The guy is incredible and can hang with the big boys who are on. Henry Thomason was another great example. He squatted #1000+ single ply and drug free. Travis also said he's drug free are you saying he's not competitive with guy's who are on.

If you want to kick some ass welcome to the club. How long have you been lifting? Have you been competing for 10 years? Do you really think you are gonna beat guys who have? You'll probably think I'm a dick but, as a drug free lifter I gotta say nothing pisses me off more than a guy who's on steroids trying to beat guys who aren't so they can "feel like" a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you have special circumstances and I feel for you. I really do. But, man up accept the cards you were delt in life. Train hard and one day you will win the right way. Never put limitations on yourself. The best lifter in our sport "in my opinion" Shawn Frankl put it well.He said he get's so strong because every time he takes a weight he believes he can do it. If you already believe you can't compete with the best in this sport you already beat yourself. Good luck to you Bro,

ThomasG
03-15-2010, 08:19 PM
] You'll probably think I'm a dick but, as a drug free lifter I gotta say nothing pisses me off more than a guy who's on steroids trying to beat guys who aren't so they can "feel like" a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!,

No, I don't think you're a dick.

I'm in agreement with the rule book <6 fails. Taking the test unaltered is fair game.

As I've stated earlier I'm going with APF since this is my first comp anyhow.

Hazerboy
03-16-2010, 01:07 AM
Basically, it boils down to this:

Is it unethical/wrong?

Are you breaking the rules?


If your test. levels are indeed considered the "normal" range, and we assume that means something, I don't see how taking prescribed drugs is unethical or wrong. Presumably you don't have an unfair advantage on anyone--in this case, I would consider this unethical, though I'd love to hear other opinions on this.

"Playing the hand you were dealt" is a very ambiguous term. Are anyone of us really playing the hand we were dealt? We all take performance enhancing "drugs"--supplements. They only reason there's even a distinction (IMO there shouldn't be) is because its big buisness in some areas (namely, Utah) and they didn't want to have to go througha ll the red tape to put out their product. NOW, arguably supplements are not nearly as good as hormones, but if AtLarge is worth a grain of salt, taking their products has done SOMETHING to your total or physique somewhat.

So from an ethical standpoint, taking supplements is ok, simply because its not a hormone ( very arbitrary line that the government drew, IMOt) and it doesn't provide you with that big of an advantage? Thats total bull****. I bet if you looked at our creatine levels or the amount of protein we piss out its nowhere near the "normal" range, mostly because we take all sorts of supplements. Those are indicators that we've artificially increased our total.

Basically I don't think there is anything wrong with you're doing.

UNLESS, you're breaking the rules. Then thats just cheating, even if its ethical cheating. If the rules state you can't take hormones, then you can't take them, no matter what you're doctor says or what your measured level is. I haven't read the rule book so thats your call man.

Just my 2 cents.

And just to clarify, if i was in your situation I would compete in the untested league for the reasons everyone else has stated. I've won all three of the powerlifting meets I've competed in, and I'd throw the trophies in the garbage if someone asked me to. What matters to me is my total and my PRs. Why should you care if you beat some ****ty guys or some guy whose been lifting for 10 years beat you?

But if I was competing against you, I'd have no issues with it.

Interesting discussion nonetheless, I'm book marking this page.

Ryano
03-17-2010, 06:04 AM
Unfortunately the rules don't dictate that "if you have a health problem you get a pass." You're either drug free or not. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

This is not correct. Even the super picky IPF has TUE(Theoputic Use Exemptions). It depends on the fed. I began HRT in 2008 and when I did, I stopped competing in tested feds, except the WABDL. I contacted Gus to explain to him why I was not going to compete in WABDL anymore. During the discussion he said that he didn't really care if I was on HRT as long as I could pass the test. He now tests me at every meet(unless I bomb). I even got tested for getting a 2nd place once.

When I compete in Feds that have a nontested division(UPA/UPA-AD and APF/AAPF), I compete in non-tested. I just feel like Travis, that I'm not "natural" even though the HRT is putting my test in a "normal" range. I think it's just a moral issue with me. That being said, I am still very competitive with anyone my age, jacked or not. If you have a choice, lift non-tested. If you aren't competitive, it will just give you the drive to train harder.

Travis Bell
03-17-2010, 10:27 AM
I understand what you're saying Ryano, I believe the AAPF does not provide for HRT in their policies, but I'll have to double check on that when I get a chance.

That was my whole point - If there is no HRT policy or allowance, people on HRT should not compete in the tested classes whether or not they pass the test.

HRT = being enhanced, however small or large it may be

Mick Manley
03-17-2010, 11:19 AM
AAPF-AWPC Banned Substances Steroid Profile I - Panel 6000



Androstene and any Andro related product (includes nor-andro)
Bolasterone (Metabolite)
Boldenone (Equipose) (Metabolite)
4-Chlorotestosterone (Clostebol) (Metabolite)
Clenbuterol (Siropent)
Danazol (Metabolite)
Dihydrotestosterone (Stanolone)
Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone (Oral-Turinabol)
Dromostanolone (Masteron) (Metabolite)
Epitestosterone (if above 200 ng/mL)
Ethylestrenol/Norethandrolone Metabolite
Formebolone (Esiclene) (Metabolite)
Fluoxymesterone (Halotestin) (Metabolite)
Furazabol
Mesterolone (Proviron) (Metabolite)
Methandrostenolone (Methandienone, Dianabol)
Methandriol
Methenolone (Primobolan)
Methyltestosterone
Mibolerone
Nandrolone (Deca-Durabolin)
Norandrostendione/Norandrostendiol Metabolite
Norethandrolone/Ethylestrenol
Oxandrolone (Anavar)
Oxymesterone
Oxymetholone (Anadrol) (Metabolite)
Probenecid (Masking agent)
Stanozolol (Winstrol) (Metabolite)
Stenbolone
Testosterone (T/epiT ratio greater than 6)
Testosterone/Androstendione/Androstendiol/DHEA
Trenbolone (Finajet, Parabolan) (Metabolite)

...and related compounds

*specimen is considered positive when Testosterone/Epitestosterone ration is greater than 6

Travis Bell
03-17-2010, 11:29 AM
Thanks for posting that Mick

Guess it appears they don't make a statement on it one way or the other. I thought that they did. I looked over the website and couldn't find anything

I suppose someone would just have to run the risk of testing positive.

Personally I still feel it's not within the spirit of the rules to try and compete when enhanced, however it seems to be somewhat of a grey area. To each their own

JSully
03-17-2010, 12:24 PM
HRT = being enhanced, however small or large it may be

I don't see why it would omit someone from a tested federation if they are testing in the natural level range and not exceeding the range.

The definition of enhancement is relative when it comes down to competition and rules. In a tested federation, depending on said federations rules, being enhanced is anything above natural levels.

Whether you're in a tested OR untested federation, I see no problem with using drugs to provide a level playing field. If my competitor is rocking out 1000ng/ml of test via TRT because without it he's at a pitiful 150ng/ml, then he is within "normal" ranges and that's the end of it. I'm not going to go whine and bitch because he got to the high end of the natural range when he was dealt a pretty ****ty card to begin with. It's not like he's really getting that much help from 600 to 1000ng/ml. It only takes 100mg test cyp weekly to maintain 600-800 if your natty levels are low. That's quite a bit off of the 500-750mg/week that truly enhanced individuals use.

I also feel that TRT doesn't make you not natural anymore. Sure, you're taking a substance, however, said substance is only getting you to where you SHOULD be naturally. I you want to debate enhancement, you can look at every OTC supplement there is: results, ets, NO2, jack3d, etc.. They all enhance performance to an extent, however, athletes who use those can still be considered natural. Why is it all of these other "drugs" you can take will still let you stand on the soapbox of drug free, however, as soon as you fix your natural deficiency confirmed by a blood test, you are no longer natural?

Sorry if the message seemed hostile, definately not the intent.