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View Full Version : Powerlifting sans AAS



KarlMarx
04-05-2010, 03:19 PM
I am trying to get a sense of my progress and relative strength but I find it hard because almost everyone (or just everyone) at higher levels of powerlifting are on AAS, HGH, etc. Even many of those who now compete without those compounds (I guess thats 'natural') used to use them and their current totals likely benefit from them.

Any idea where somebody could go to look at some totals that represent, as closely as possible, what people who are 'natural' do?

Travis Bell
04-05-2010, 03:29 PM
How do you know that everyone at the top level is on AAS?

How do you know that everyone at the top level has used in the past?

Seems to me you're making some pretty large assumptions about people in general.

I think sometimes people make excuses for their own weakness by accusing everyone who is stonger than them of being on steroids

KoSh
04-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Here's what you're looking for:

http://www.rawpowerlifting.com/pdf/RAWClassificationStandards.pdf

MarcusWild
04-05-2010, 03:50 PM
How do you know that everyone at the top level is on AAS?

How do you know that everyone at the top level has used in the past?

Seems to me you're making some pretty large assumptions about people in general.

I think sometimes people make excuses for their own weakness by accusing everyone who is stonger than them of being on steroids

I think it's the common drug-free lifter assumption that anyone stronger than them must be using AAS. That's why they are stronger. It has nothing to do with better technique, better training, better nutrition, better legal supplements, etc. I've never understood that mindset.

Personally, I think elite and pro totals are possible without AAS. I haven't been at this long enough to know what's possible beyond that. I'm sure more is possible though.

robchris
04-05-2010, 06:28 PM
I have to agree w/ Travis bro... Cant make assumptions about others preformances in any sports arena.

Powerlifting is about doing your best, trying to set a PR, not where you place @ the meet!!!

Dont worry about what the other guys are taking, just be your best...
MY .02
RC

douglasoh5
04-05-2010, 07:03 PM
I use and really dont care what anyone thinks, but to say Im stonger just because Im on them is dumb. but there are alot of strong drug free guys out there...travis...scott yard.....c baily....jo jordan....and theres alot of the top guys now that hit huge totals before they got on. Im pretty sure donnie thompson hit close to 2500 before he started and chad aichs was like mid 24s.....I also know heys who have a 1500 total and are on more sh1t than i would even think about taking. drugs dont make lifters.

KarstenDD
04-05-2010, 07:32 PM
I've never seen a bottle of test lift a thing.

KarlMarx
04-06-2010, 07:38 AM
LOL--I feel like you all are jumping to your own conclusions about me,
1) I KNOW that people who use AAS must work just as hard for their gains as anybody else--if they are using and working easy, someone else is using and working hard, so they won't win
2) I have nothing against AAS or the fact that powerlifting is full of it. Really, its pretty harmless compared to the drug scene in music and (if its well done) its less damaging than pounding cheeseburgers on the couch watching reruns
3) I just don't think its for me, I am not sure I have the consistency to maintain the gains I would get on AAS and so I am not sure it would do me benefit me in the long run

Anyway, thanks for the link to the 'natural' totals--thats exactly what I wanted.
Just to repeat--nothing I intended was in any way meant as a disparagement of others. MOre a statement of fact. I don't use AAS. And a question. Where can I see people who lift in circumstances similar to me and their totals?

Sean S
04-06-2010, 07:45 AM
Look at the records for some of the tested federations (USAPL, NASA, 100% raw, AAU) as those are more likely to be held by natural lifters (I know drug tests can be beat, but the occurance of AAS in those organizations seems less likely). You could also look at the amaeuter records in the IPA or the AAPF as those are both for drug free lifters as well.
To see people lift in your "circumstances" find a meet in one of the above listed organizations depending on what your gear situation is (raw, single ply, multi-ply).

AdamBAG
04-06-2010, 08:03 AM
I know for a fact that I've placed higher than guys that are on. I also know for a fact that I've been beaten by guys that were clean.

The simple fact is that all that really mattered to me was whether I beat my PRs and hit the total that I wanted to hit. What the other guys did didn't matter to me and it still doesn't.

ScottYard
04-06-2010, 08:56 AM
I am trying to get a sense of my progress and relative strength but I find it hard because almost everyone (or just everyone) at higher levels of powerlifting are on AAS, HGH, etc. Even many of those who now compete without those compounds (I guess thats 'natural') used to use them and their current totals likely benefit from them.

Any idea where somebody could go to look at some totals that represent, as closely as possible, what people who are 'natural' do?

The best advice I can give to any one is to not be concerned with what other people do. Just focus on what you CAN and what you WANT to do.

Focus on PR's and hard work for a while before you start comparing yourself to others.

NASAKYCHAIRMAN
04-06-2010, 11:35 AM
I am trying to get a sense of my progress and relative strength but I find it hard because almost everyone (or just everyone) at higher levels of powerlifting are on AAS, HGH, etc. Even many of those who now compete without those compounds (I guess thats 'natural') used to use them and their current totals likely benefit from them.

Any idea where somebody could go to look at some totals that represent, as closely as possible, what people who are 'natural' do?

If you are looking for drug tested totals & ranking, check out Nasa:
http://www.texaslifting.com/nasa_record_index.htm
http://www.nasatop100.com/

Also, you don't need illegal supplements to be a top lifter. There are many lifters that compete in Nasa, Ipf, Usapl,etc that have top powerliftingwatch and powerlifting usa the magazine ranking. If a lifter want to use illegal supplements, then compete in a federation that does no testing. If you want to compete in a drug tested federation, no need to complain about illegal supplements.

Pete22
04-06-2010, 12:41 PM
If you want to compete in a drug tested federation, no need to complain about illegal supplements.

Right. Because no one in the IPF uses...... :rolleyes:

KarlMarx
04-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Right. Because no one in the IPF uses...... :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the information everyone. On the information Kosh gave on classifications, I am Class I which gives me a sense of my progress so far and what is possible (in terms of achieving a master and elite certification). I also checked out the records posted by Hall--it seems my deadlift is relatively strong compared to others but my bench is a ways off. So, likely there is some potential there if I can just figure out where my weakness is. (I am going to work OHP more intensely--I suspect it might be in my shoulders).

I appreciate that there is an aspect of lifting that is about beating your own records--but as far as I can tell, one of the reasons many of us lift in a group is the competition. When my buddy out lifts me or gets another PR and I don't--that just adds extra motivation. Same with the desire to win in a competition. (Got pull only next wednesday!) Looking at the records, classifcations, etc. just motivates me. (In addition to beating my own records).

Thanks for the great information everybody!

Travis Bell
04-06-2010, 04:15 PM
Why do you think it's impossible for you to be competitive just by your genetics?

Personally I've never understood that line of reasoning. I've found that if I work hard enough and train smart, it's easy to stay competitive.

theBarzeen
04-06-2010, 05:16 PM
There are a lot of guys I've trained with who hit APF elite totals clean..... I train with a 242'er who went over a grand on his squat as an AAPF ( tested) lifter...... I've only been at this a little under 4 years but given my crummy genetics ( graduated High School in '02 standing 6'5" and weighing 165#.... started lifting my senior year).....

I've come a long way since then.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2C_6uXEog ..... it's not where you start, it's how hard you are willing to work to get where you want to be.

Another drug free guy from my gym came through at that meet and squatted just over 800 as a 181...... saying that anyone is stronger than you because of drugs is ridiculous..... go to www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com and look at the AAPF and AWPC records for your weight class.....

MarcusWild
04-06-2010, 05:50 PM
I am not sure I have the consistency

Lack of consistency will hold you back more than anything else. That's one thing you see with all the top lifters. They are at the gym on training days. They are willing to sacrifice by either rescheduling or neglecting things to make sure they get to the gym.

deeder
04-06-2010, 09:48 PM
I've never seen a bottle of test lift a thing.

Then why take them?

I really hate this debate... It's always the same old thing.

Clean lifters: "Everyone is on drugs."
Dirty lifters: "Drugs didn't make me strong."

Both are bull**** opinions and its as bad as a religious debate.

As far as I am concerned, there is no drug FREE federation. There are drug tested federations and drug tested meets. If you're from Canada you may have heard about Greg Doucette, supposedly drug-free bodybuilder/powerlifter who has won national titles in both and I believe some sort of international bodybuilding titles... Anyway, after something like 14 tests over 8 years (these numbers are probably not accurate) he failed a test this year at a small local meet. So much for drug free right?

In this sport you can only compare to yourself. If you walk away from a meet proud of what you accomplished, then you won. Who cares if you didn't get a gold medal or if the guy that beat you has bacne. If you put your heart and soul into the training and put it all together on the meet day then that's all that matters.

Magilla
04-07-2010, 10:08 AM
Then why take them?

I really hate this debate... It's always the same old thing.

Clean lifters: "Everyone is on drugs."
Dirty lifters: "Drugs didn't make me strong."

Both are bull**** opinions and its as bad as a religious debate.

As far as I am concerned, there is no drug FREE federation. There are drug tested federations and drug tested meets. If you're from Canada you may have heard about Greg Doucette, supposedly drug-free bodybuilder/powerlifter who has won national titles in both and I believe some sort of international bodybuilding titles... Anyway, after something like 14 tests over 8 years (these numbers are probably not accurate) he failed a test this year at a small local meet. So much for drug free right?

In this sport you can only compare to yourself. If you walk away from a meet proud of what you accomplished, then you won. Who cares if you didn't get a gold medal or if the guy that beat you has bacne. If you put your heart and soul into the training and put it all together on the meet day then that's all that matters.

Well said Deeder.

KarstenDD
04-07-2010, 06:45 PM
Take drugs, be awesome.

wilgates
06-21-2010, 11:35 PM
3) I just don't think its for me, I am not sure I have the consistency to maintain the gains I would get on AAS and so I am not sure it would do me benefit me in the long run... Here's why you think everyone with a top total is on aas... you lack consistency plain and simply don't get upset or try to deny it... I know your not bashing aas or its users I'm just understanding your way of thinking.. you don't stick to a training program long enough or consistent enough to make any real gains that's all... you said it yourself so don't get mad or think I'm judging you I'm just going by what your saying about yourself

mastermonster
06-22-2010, 12:51 AM
OK, I'll stir the pot a little. There is no sport which requires athletic abilities (speed, strength, agility etc.) that you can reach the top at unless you were lucky enough 'choose the right parents'. In other words; you've got to be near the top of the gene pool. Sorry but it's true. You and anyone can get better with hard work, but sooner or later genetics will be the limiting factor. I'm sure supplement companies don't want anyone believing this because it is to their advantage to sell the idea that anyone who takes their products can be the all-time record holder. Sorry but the supplements (although they may work wonderfully) are not going to be enough to take someone of only average genetic potential for strength to the top. No matter how hard they train and for how long. What you have at the top is that rare occurance where someone with the right linage (bloodline), falls in love with this sport early enough in life to train their a** off for years to reach that potential that was the genetic gift from their parents. Like NFL football players, you must be (1st) born to be one; and then fortunate enough to choose that course in life that prepared you to get there. 1000's of College players each year want it and work at it as hard as the pros, but only a handfull will make it to that level. Some will boost that level of potential to some degree with AAS; but no one who is not predestined to be there by 'blood-right' will make it. No matter how much AAS they can cram into there body.

Bottom line. Do you know if you have the genetics before you try? With some it's obvious and others not. So stay at it if you love it for as many years as you are still improving and time will tell. The chase and the 'not knowing ' is part of the excitment of this sport. So bust your a** for the next 10-12 years and if you crack the top 10-15-20... whatever your goal is, you'll then know you picked the right parents; and fulfilled your destiny. If you don't you still bettered yourself as a lifter and a person...AAS or not.

tnathletics2b
06-22-2010, 04:47 AM
OK, I'll stir the pot a little. There is no sport which requires athletic abilities (speed, strength, agility etc.) that you can reach the top at unless you were lucky enough 'choose the right parents'. In other words; you've got to be near the top of the gene pool. Sorry but it's true.

Your argument reminds me of a quote from "Lost" by Jack Shepherd's Dad- "And that is why the Sox will never win the Series." He used it to ascribe anything in life that happened against him as fate- i.e. he got fired from his job, not because he was drunk while on duty, but because it was "fate."

That is basically your argument- that "unless you were lucky enough" (fate) to choose the right parents, you are screwed. What about Jim Abbot- the MLB pitcher who threw a no-hitter with only one hand? He could have said, "Well, shoot, Jim, you only got one hand- guess you weren't lucky enough to get the right parents so you could play baseball." And then he could have never tried to be great- except he did, and did become great. Or the guy that "Blindside" is about- Michael Oher. He could have said, "Well, shoot, Michael, your parents are drug addicts and you have attended 11 schools the last 9 years and are homeless, so I guess you ain't lucky enough to have the right parents to play in the NFL." Except he didn't, and he is playing in the NFL.

Sports is all about overcoming genetic obstacles. Do you not think there were a lot of of other guys who were better pitchers than Jim Abbot growing up? Yeah, there was. He could have quit because he wasn't "lucky enough" to have two hands like all the other kids "at the top of the gene pool." But he didn't, and went on to have a successful career in the big leagues.

For every Ken Griffey, Jr. out there born with the ability to walk out on the field and be one of the best there ever was, there is a Jim Abbot working his butt off who will get to the same place.

Sean S
06-22-2010, 07:23 AM
Your argument reminds me of a quote from "Lost" by Jack Shepherd's Dad- "And that is why the Sox will never win the Series." He used it to ascribe anything in life that happened against him as fate- i.e. he got fired from his job, not because he was drunk while on duty, but because it was "fate."

That is basically your argument- that "unless you were lucky enough" (fate) to choose the right parents, you are screwed. What about Jim Abbot- the MLB pitcher who threw a no-hitter with only one hand? He could have said, "Well, shoot, Jim, you only got one hand- guess you weren't lucky enough to get the right parents so you could play baseball." And then he could have never tried to be great- except he did, and did become great. Or the guy that "Blindside" is about- Michael Oher. He could have said, "Well, shoot, Michael, your parents are drug addicts and you have attended 11 schools the last 9 years and are homeless, so I guess you ain't lucky enough to have the right parents to play in the NFL." Except he didn't, and he is playing in the NFL.

Sports is all about overcoming genetic obstacles. Do you not think there were a lot of of other guys who were better pitchers than Jim Abbot growing up? Yeah, there was. He could have quit because he wasn't "lucky enough" to have two hands like all the other kids "at the top of the gene pool." But he didn't, and went on to have a successful career in the big leagues.

For every Ken Griffey, Jr. out there born with the ability to walk out on the field and be one of the best there ever was, there is a Jim Abbot working his butt off who will get to the same place.

Those examples don't exactly refute the genetics argument. Jim Abbot could still throw 90+ mph, which isn't possible for everyone, no matter how hard they train. Michael Oher was 6'5" and near 300 lbs with great athletic ability and quickness for his size. Again, you can't teach or build that kind of natural size coupled with athletic ability. No one would argue that both didn't work hard and overcome some huge obstacles, but if they handn't had certain genetic gifts they never would have reached the levels they did.
If you are talking about being good at something, no you don't have to have great genetics. If you are talking about being truly elite at something, then yes genetics play a significant role (but obviously aren't the only factor).