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cwny69
05-06-2002, 02:42 PM
ive veen rying gor 2 months tryin to lose some bodfat ive been tryin atkins but i keep on cheatin but now im serious im startin all over with atkins and im gonna try to lose some bodyfat but im wondering is it more efficent to just go on a low calorie diet -

Jane
05-06-2002, 02:52 PM
You should be eating below maintenance on atkins anyway, so I don't understand what you mean by a "low calorie diet." If you are referring to self starvation, no it won't work. You'll be hungry, you'll lose muscle, and you'll wind up cheating.

You can't expect to change all your habits at once. Instead of the destination, focus on the journey. Take it one day at a time and try to get one good habit down before you start learning another. If you try to use atkins for a month and then go back to all your old habits it will be 1 step forward and 2 steps back. You have a lifetime to work on this stuff, take it slower. Be patient. And change your lifestyle, don't look for a quick fix.

cwny69
05-06-2002, 03:01 PM
well im gonna try atkins for 2 months to lose about 6 percent bf then im gonna go back to eating carbs but carbs like whole wheat bread not white bread and ill sugar but once in a while and ill eat like 100 grams not 200 like i usually eat is this ok

Jane
05-06-2002, 03:04 PM
First of all, I think you should start using punctuation and writing in sentences. :)

Second of all, how do you know you'll do as you say? If you cannot handle eating carbs now, and tend to cheat a lot, it won't be any easier to not-cheat 2 months from now. That's why I'm saying focus on long term goals, be patient, and really get some good habits going. You've got to get more information about proper, healthy eating and start applying it bit by bit. Do Atkins if you like, but use those two months to read everything you can get your hands on about nutrition so you will really be able to change your lifestyle.

Tiare
05-06-2002, 03:24 PM
Maybe I can help a bit with the cheating thing. I used to cheat all the time. I would eat 3 square meals a day and after doing that for about 2 weeks, I would still eat 3 times a day, but it was always about double what my diet said I should be eating.

I fixed it by eating 6 square meals a day. I get up and have a meal, I go to work and have a meal. I go to lunch and have a meal. I get ready to go home and eat. I go home and shortly thereafter, I eat. I eat constantly. I don't think I've gone more than 4 hours in the last month without eating (sleep time excluded). But I don't want to eat a lot. I want to eat very little as a matter of fact.

I don't know enough about atkins to comment, but It looked like a crash or fad diet and since you seem to have troubles keeping away from the carbs, I'd say it probably won't work well for you.

Oh, I also replaced bread (white, wheat, cracked, it doesn't matter) with pasta and fruit. Whole grain breads (whole grain pumpernickle...how can you go wrong with a name like pumpernickle?) seem to be OK though.

Focus on being yourself and making your body happy and it will probably reward you.

Oh, by the way, why are you trying to lose weight. Do it for a reason, not just because you're "fat"

cwny69
05-06-2002, 03:24 PM
the only reason i would cheat if i wasnt prepared and i never cleaned out my kitchen of all the food with carb then when there wouldnt be anyhting to eat id eat whatever know i wont make that mistake and ill always be prepared

Jane
05-06-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Jane
First of all, I think you should start using punctuation and writing in sentences. :)


It really would make things easier.

InferiorDesign
05-06-2002, 03:56 PM
if you dont have the self control to do a simple thing like not cheat then you may as well give up

cwny69
05-06-2002, 03:59 PM
i know but this time its different

InferiorDesign
05-06-2002, 04:02 PM
it shows you have little self control. it probably means you dont do the last half of your workout, you cheat on every rep, and you dont bother to take everything to mind. bodybuilding is something that requires a @#$@ load of self discipline

Neil
05-06-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
it shows you have little self control. it probably means you dont do the last half of your workout, you cheat on every rep, and you dont bother to take everything to mind. bodybuilding is something that requires a @#$@ load of self discipline

That's right. Nothing will work if you don't have the discipline for it.

Jane
05-06-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
if you dont have the self control to do a simple thing like not cheat then you may as well give up

Wrong.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Stop acting higher-than-thou and claiming self control is easy and not cheating is simple. What's true for you may be completely not true for other people. I've been on both sides, and I think it's wrong of you to tell people to "give up." Everything can be overcome. Just because for someone else it's more of a challenge doesn't mean they should stop trying.

If self control was easy, we wouldn't have so many alcoholics, drug addicts, eating disorders, etc. Displine is very, very important but it takes TIME to get there. Be patient with other people when they haven't yet reached your level.

InferiorDesign
05-06-2002, 04:33 PM
my reason for living is bodybuilding (way way understatement on how i feel about bb) self control comes with want. if you dont want it, then no, you wont develop self control

Jane
05-06-2002, 05:04 PM
Stop telling people they can't do things. You've no idea whether he wants it or not, and how badly. So your life is bodybuilding? Great. Not everybody's is, and that makes them no less of a person.

This board is about support and education. We're not here to tell people to give up at achieving a healthier lifestyle and body.

Maki Riddington
05-06-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
my reason for living is bodybuilding (way way understatement on how i feel about bb) self control comes with want. if you dont want it, then no, you wont develop self control

*** :thumbup: Jane!!! You go girl.
Self control doesn't come with "want." It's a matter of heart.
You can "want" something so badly but if your hear t is not there your attemps will only be futile.

I "want" to lose bodyfat but it takes me time to get my head in order so I can set things in their proper place.

Jane
05-06-2002, 05:34 PM
Exactly. Or are you going to tell Maki to give up too, Inferior?

hotgirl_03
05-06-2002, 05:48 PM
akins diet is really bad for ur body, sure u may lose weight but as soon as u get off of the diet 9 times out of 10 the weight comes right back. i would really consider a different approach to ur diet

cwny69
05-06-2002, 05:56 PM
hotgirl03 is that true that the wait comes back if so should i just eat less calories

cwny69
05-06-2002, 05:57 PM
i don't care about the weight coming back. I care about body fat coming if it doesn't come back then ill do the atkins diet.

Jane
05-06-2002, 05:57 PM
The reason it comes back is that people haven't learned proper lifestyle habits to begin with. When they start eating carbs again, they go right back to all the wrong types and amounts of carbs. But people with experience in eating balanced meals are able to use cyclical ketogenic diets and/or ketogenic diets with a lot of success.

Jane
05-06-2002, 05:59 PM
You SHOULD be eating less calories if you're going for fat loss ketosis-style. Do you know what your maintenance caloric level is?Are you sure you know how to reach ketosis?

Do your reading, don't look for quick answers or quick fixes.

cwny69
05-06-2002, 06:03 PM
yes i know my caloric maintenance and I know how to go into ketosis

But id just like to know would it be better just not to do atkins and do a different low calorie diet

hotgirl_03
05-06-2002, 06:06 PM
a major problem with the akins diet is that people do not know what they are doing and are miss treating their bodies. a major affect is ketosis, and not in a good way ur breath can smell like nail polish remover as well as ur pee because ur body is ridin to much ketone bodies. i seriously do not suggest the atkins diet to any one. and yes much of the weight is gained back because ur body is not use to the change. u can not go from diet to nondiet on a continual basis.

Jane
05-06-2002, 06:12 PM
Can you provide any proof to support that ketosis is detrimental
to the body?

Why do you think that much of the weight is gained back? There will be some recovery of water weight, yes, once a person switches from no-carb to carb, but if the person goes right back to a healthy diet, why would they gain back fat? Fat would require eating over-maintenance.

PowerManDL
05-06-2002, 06:37 PM
Jane, do you know what a ketone is, chemically?

Behemoth
05-06-2002, 06:47 PM
I understand this thread is getting kind of heavy and malicious, so first off I just want to say if something I say is wrong or you disagree with it, let me know don't yell at me, I'm still learning. cwny69 I've been following a lot of threads you've posted lately and not to criticize you in any sort of a negative way but you seem to been off and back on your diet every couple days. From expierience I would say it's better to not diet at all than to be inconsistent ever couple of days, your just putting your couple days work down the train with your cheating.
Being on atkins is a very difficult lifestyle to stay consistent with, I really don't think I could handle it right now. I'm also cutting and have simply chose to lower my calorie intake by about 400 and keep my ratios even (doing the 40/40/20) and getting only clean foods. My personal suggestion to you, if your struggling with consistency, would be to not jump straight into the atkins but try something a bit simpler to work with, like a 40/40/20 and slowly drop your cals below your maintenence. I would say go with this for a few months and slowly teach yourself more self discipline. After that if you want to change your diet over to atkins, go ahead (just not drastically, I'm sure there's a propper way to do it). In doing this, the few months that you spent on the 40/40/20 will teach you the self discipline needed to continue in weightloss and bodybuilding, and at the same time shave off some weight and bodyfat.

InferiorDesign
05-06-2002, 06:50 PM
jane and maki... if he doesnt want it badly hell never get anywere, end of line, of story, end of conversation. the body doesnt want to have big muscles, or be healthy. it wants to relax. you let it relax for a short time and youll wind up right back were you started. it starts with not being able to control a diet, and works its way into just deciding your not gonna work out this week

Maki Riddington
05-06-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
jane and maki... if he doesnt want it badly hell never get anywere, end of line, of story, end of conversation. the body doesnt want to have big muscles, or be healthy. it wants to relax. you let it relax for a short time and youll wind up right back were you started. it starts with not being able to control a diet, and works its way into just deciding your not gonna work out this week

*** It's not just the body that is responsible, the mind and body together need to be on the same path.
It takes a lot of heart to keep going, it comes easier to some than others. That's not an excuse to say that he is allowed to be inconsistant, but he has to learn how to follow through on his eating habits.

I just think that people who struggle don't need a stern scolding but rather encouragement to keep plugging away and some friendly help.

I would be more than glad to help you out if youlike. Just PM me.
:)

cwny69
05-06-2002, 07:26 PM
WELL THIS TIME ITS FOR REAL GUYS ILL POST MY RESULTS AND ILL SHOW YOU I HAVE SELF CONTROL I JUST NEVER REALLY WANTED IT BAD ENOUGH BUT NOW I DO

cwny69
05-06-2002, 07:27 PM
2MORROW IM STARTIN MY 1 DAY FAST

cwny69
05-06-2002, 07:28 PM
TO GET INTO KETOSIS

Jane
05-06-2002, 07:37 PM
Why are you writing in caps?


You said that you knew how to get into ketosis. A fast is not the way to go.

cwny69
05-06-2002, 07:39 PM
I heard people saying if you fast for 1 day you'll go into ketosis because your body has no energy supply

hotgirl_03
05-06-2002, 07:41 PM
seriously i bet u (Jane) dont even have the slightest idea of the damage that ur body can go through due to the atkins diet, and as to the proof it is a highly well known fact the atkins diet can and will over develop ketone bodies and the body needs to rid itself of the ketones somehow and it is also widely know that if too many ketone bodies are being produced that it releases and nail polish remover smell.......ask any doctor there is ur proof!!!! but i guess some people are willing to be active in any thing to be perfect even if it means self destructing their own body in the process!!!

Maki Riddington
05-06-2002, 07:42 PM
Arghhhhhhhh.....Nooooooooooooooooooooo.
Please read and do some research before blindly jumping into a diet.

Read the CKD articles on the front page.

hotgirl_03
05-06-2002, 07:48 PM
Maki who r u talking to?

Blood&Iron
05-06-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
seriously i bet u (Jane) dont even have the slightest idea of the damage that ur body can go through due to the atkins diet, and as to the proof it is a highly well known fact the atkins diet can and will over develop ketone bodies and the body needs to rid itself of the ketones somehow and it is also widely know that if too many ketone bodies are being produced that it releases and nail polish remover smell.......ask any doctor there is ur proof!!!! but i guess some people are willing to be active in any thing to be perfect even if it means self destructing their own body in the process!!!
:rolleyes:

Jane
05-06-2002, 07:57 PM
I seriously bet that I (Jane) know what I'm talking about. I also seriously bet that I've been in ketosis for the past 3 weeks. Yes, your pee will smell funny. Yes, your body will produce ketones, which are not the gentlest substance. But they are also a by product of fat breakdown. Ketogenic diets (more specifically, cyclical ketogenic diets) have been used time and time again by many bodybuilders successfully. Successful, if you know what you're doing, that is.

Jane
05-06-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by cwny69
I heard people saying if you fast for 1 day you'll go into ketosis because your body has no energy supply

:bang:


I'm trying to help you. But you've got to do your research. Until then...you're not going to get very far.

Cackerot69
05-06-2002, 08:04 PM
You can get into ketosis via fasting but it isn't the best way. Just carb restrict with a 70/30 fat/pro ratio...like 500 below maintenance.

PS - keto is safe if you ain't diabetic :)

*rebels against jane anyway*

Behemoth
05-06-2002, 08:07 PM
cwny69 by the tone of you last couple posts it sounds like your starting you diet over again to prove something to us. That's not a very good motive to go into it having, find something inside of you to GRADUALLY work for, a slow motive if you will. Not something like how good your going to look in the end, but something shorterm, like dropping a pound and a half consistently each week, or just feeling good about yourself knowing your doing something good for yourself. I hope you understand what I'm saying.

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 08:58 AM
Ketosis Diets= Desperate Measures


So you're a bodybuilder Jane? Or are you just losing weight so that you look "perfect".. how much do you weight right now?


when ur body starts producing a funny smell that is not good. i know that u are the one that needs to do the research for u are destroying it because u think u know what u are doing. Fact: Some people have died from the atkins diet! Eat that!

Neil
05-07-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
jane and maki... if he doesnt want it badly hell never get anywere, end of line, of story, end of conversation. the body doesnt want to have big muscles, or be healthy. it wants to relax. you let it relax for a short time and youll wind up right back were you started. it starts with not being able to control a diet, and works its way into just deciding your not gonna work out this week

:nod:
It doesn't get much more simple than that. No need trying to overcomplicate things. No self control= no results.

Jane
05-07-2002, 02:57 PM
Neil: 1 question. Are we born with self control? Or do we develop it?


hot_girl. Please stop making assumptions about who I am and why I do what I do. At 5'7, 145 pounds, decent strength levels, and two years of studying diet, nutrition, and exercise, as well as conversing with those who do, I think I am qualified to call myself a bodybuilder and to be absolutely sure that I do, in fact, know what I am doing. By insisting that I am causing severe harm and putting myself in danger by staying in a state of ketosis, and furthermore claiming that I am "desperate", you are insulting me and every other person who has had success with ketosis.

Read this: http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=34

And then I will be willing to continue our discussion.

cwny69
05-07-2002, 03:08 PM
well im starting tommorow for sure i just bought everything to eat

cwny69
05-07-2002, 03:12 PM
do you peope think its possible to lose 5 percent of bf by july 15 with no crash diet just satying in ketosis for that long any opininions

the_hall
05-07-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by cwny69
do you peope think its possible to lose 5 percent of bf by july 15 with no crash diet just satying in ketosis for that long any opininions

why dont you just do the diet and stop asking random questions, so a search on your name and look at all your "what is ketosis" "look everyone im in ketosis" "is a ckd a good diet" threads.

hotgirl_03, after reading your insight i am going to stop my ckd diet immediatley before I die!! Thank god we have experts like you on this board to save people like myslef!

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 05:39 PM
Lol.
Keotisis will not kill you.
But be forewarned that you may lose some bodyfat as a result.:eek:

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 05:45 PM
Jane im not making assumptions on who u r. if u dont like the fact that someone other than u is right...thats not my problem. all im tryin to tell u is that being in ketosis is not good. yea i have read articles like that one and many many others, but you can not just look at the "good". when ur body goes into ketosis is because u r depriving it out proteins, nutrients, carbs, or even fat. ur body produces ketone bodies to make up for that loss, which is ok on occasion...but not all the time!!! ur basically striving ur body of something it needs. dealing with things like things like this is not a game and can leaving a lasting imprint on ur health!!! so why dont u go sit down somewhere and absorb that before u speak!

Jane
05-07-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
Jane im not making assumptions on who u r. if u dont like the fact that someone other than u is right...thats not my problem.
You're right, yet everyone who has posted besides me has agreed with me? Hmm.

when ur body goes into ketosis is because u r depriving it out proteins, nutrients, carbs, or even fat. ur body produces ketone bodies to make up for that loss, which is ok on occasion...but not all the time!!!
By reading this I am getting the impression that you don't understand what ketosis is or how to get there. If I deprived myself of fats, I wouldn't be able to reach ketosis week after week. Ketone bodies are not made because I am lowering my calories or eating a less nutritious diet. They are made because the concentration of glucose in the blood is lowered to the extent that ketone bodies must be produced to provide energy and allow me to function. (And fuction very well, with lots of energy, I might add). The nutrient issue can easily be addressed with a multivitamin and several supplements during the temporary amount of time that ketogenic diets are used.

ur basically striving ur body of something it needs. dealing with things like things like this is not a game and can leaving a lasting imprint on ur health!!! so why dont u go sit down somewhere and absorb that before u speak!
Striving...perhaps you mean starving? What is it that I'm starving it of? And please don't tell me what to do, thanks.

cwny69
05-07-2002, 06:01 PM
there you jane tell her

LuckyCharm
05-07-2002, 06:07 PM
Basically.......

If you're for ketosis you will accept the positive aspects and ignore the negative.

If you're against it you will accept the negative aspects and ignore the positive.

With that said, this is a useless debate.
To each his own...... each person wants to do different things with their body, lets accept it not respect it and move forth.

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
Jane im not making assumptions on who u r. if u dont like the fact that someone other than u is right...thats not my problem. all im tryin to tell u is that being in ketosis is not good. yea i have read articles like that one and many many others, but you can not just look at the "good". when ur body goes into ketosis is because u r depriving it out proteins, nutrients, carbs, or even fat. ur body produces ketone bodies to make up for that loss, which is ok on occasion...but not all the time!!! ur basically striving ur body of something it needs. dealing with things like things like this is not a game and can leaving a lasting imprint on ur health!!! so why dont u go sit down somewhere and absorb that before u speak!

*** tell that to the Inuit people who've survived for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years on fat and protein.

the_hall
05-07-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
when ur body goes into ketosis is because u r depriving it out proteins, nutrients, carbs, or even fat.

You dont deprive yourself of fat when on a ckd diet, everyone knows that. You also get plenty of protien, alteast according to the RDA numbers. Where did you get that depriving your self of carbs helps you into ketosis, i have never heard this before:confused: Are you serious?

I can't belive you have the nerve to come on here and tell people a keto diet is bad, why dont you go on the anabolic forum and tell people steroids are bad. Personally I dont care if it is bad for me, not that i think it is. ECA stacks aren't good for you, but I will be taking them. You remind me of this big girl in my Economics class, I started taking my vitamins and she was like "your so retarded for taking all those vitamins and wasting your money, why do you do that, its so stupid." I turned around and said, "so I never have a fat nasty body like yours."

My point is you have no idea what you are talking about, your posts show it. ALso, most people are worried about looking good, not bieng healthy, atleast I am.

LuckyCharm
05-07-2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by the_hall




ALso, most people are worried about looking good, not bieng healthy, atleast I am.

What use is it to look good and be unhealthy? It seems slef-defeating... and why not be healthy and look good......... it's quite possible.

Jane
05-07-2002, 06:14 PM
the_hall....you mean "depriving of fats" not carbs...might want to fix that

And hall, while I agree with your point, I must say that it is perfectly possible to stay healthy and use a ketogenic diet for a temporary amount of time. Your body will barely notice the 1-2 months you're using CKD, and in the grand scope of life, it will make an imprint the size of an ant.

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 06:22 PM
first of all i have my own thoughts on the matter and as do u. but i will not sit back and listen to the bs u are spewing out. second crwny 69 u have zero room to talk for all u do is ask people this and that as though u dont even have a mind to think for urself. third maki if that was u who stated that people dont die from ketosis who are...wrong. fourth if u knew how to read i was refering to the atkins diet which put ur body into ketosis and yes people have died.....so last but not least people who worry bout how then look over how healthy they are....are stupid!

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 06:24 PM
finally jane i think ur startin to catch on!!!!

InferiorDesign
05-07-2002, 06:29 PM
tell it to the inuits who werent body builders, and who probably didnt live past 40

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-07-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
fourth if u knew how to read i was refering to the atkins diet which put ur body into ketosis and yes people have died.....


People can die no matter what diet they follow. If there proof it was the diet that killed them?

Jane
05-07-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
but i will not sit back and listen to the bs u are spewing out.
Could you do me a favor and quote this "bs" you speak of?

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 06:38 PM
thats very true and yes ive seen reports on this on the news as well as in health magazines im sure u can dig it up on the internet too.

the_hall
05-07-2002, 06:55 PM
Jane, on a ckd you deprive yourself of carbs. You dont eat any carbs, you must have misread my post. Im talking about ketosis, not the carb up.

LuckyCharm, yes it is possible. But ECA and steriods aren't healthy, but that doesnt mean that people shouldn't use them. They make you look Better than if you didn't use them. The better you want to look, the more "unhealthy" you will be in many cases. Im willing to risk my health to look good, most people who use stuff like xen and so forth do, it is a tradeoff.


so last but not least people who worry bout how then look over how healthy they are....are stupid!

So you are saying, hotgirl, that I am stupid? Your the one who is stupid, you spelling shows it. Your so pathetic, its people like you who i feel sorry for. You worry too much about other people, when I see people eating hamburgers and fries I dont go "they are stupid for bieng fat and ugly." I just dont care about them. It is people like you in this world that make things like ephedra hcl pills impossible for me to get. People worry about other peoples decisions, so they outlaw good supplements. Again, you are so pathetic.

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
tell it to the inuits who werent body builders, and who probably didnt live past 40

*** Inuits I believe, lived well into their 70's. They've been around for more than 5000 years to be exact. The fact that they did not lift any iron is even more of a testament to how safe this diet can be. As I mentioned their life span.

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 07:10 PM
"this big girl in my Economics class, I started taking my vitamins and she was like "your so retarded for taking all those vitamins and wasting your money, why do you do that, its so stupid." I turned around and said, "so I never have a fat nasty body like yours."
i certainly dont think ur retarded for taking vitamins, but u sound a little immature who really says stuff like that...get real.

"So you are saying, hotgirl, that I am stupid? Your the one who is stupid, you spelling shows it. Your so pathetic, its people like you who i feel sorry for. You worry too much about other people, when I see people eating hamburgers and fries I dont go "they are stupid for bieng fat and ugly." I just dont care about them. It is people like you in this world that make things like ephedra hcl pills impossible for me to get. People worry about other peoples decisions, so they outlaw good supplements. Again, you are so pathetic."
ur the one who is pathetic i didnt know that this was a spelling bee...grow up. i think that u have a little too many problems for me...its people like me who make this world a better place honey... its people like u who make guys/girls (whatever u r) look like idiots. u stress way to much over the little things to enjoy life!

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 07:13 PM
jane theres not enough room to quote everything u said.

Jane
05-07-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
Where did you get that depriving your self of carbs helps you into ketosis, i have never heard this before:confused: Are you serious?


That's the part I don't understand, hall. What are you talking about?

Jane
05-07-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
jane theres not enough room to quote everything u said.
I don't want you to quote everything I said. I already know what I'm talking about.

I want a specific quote that is so chock-full of "bs", and I want your proof to negate it. If you're so sure of yourself, it shouldn't be too hard. I am able to take your arguments, dissect them, and negate them. Can you do the same to a specific quote of mine?

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
first of all i have my own thoughts on the matter and as do u. but i will not sit back and listen to the bs u are spewing out. second crwny 69 u have zero room to talk for all u do is ask people this and that as though u dont even have a mind to think for urself. third maki if that was u who stated that people dont die from ketosis who are...wrong. fourth if u knew how to read i was refering to the atkins diet which put ur body into ketosis and yes people have died.....so last but not least people who worry bout how then look over how healthy they are....are stupid!

*** I would be most interested in seeing the reports of these deaths. I wouldn't be suprised if it was a result of other health complications. This method is not for everyone. There are certain prereqs that need to be met first before starting on this diet.

You've provided no hard evidence to date supporting your arguement. I doubt anyone here is even going to listen to you until you do. So... I'll do you a favor, if you can't support your arguement then your wasting your own time cause your sure not gonna win anyone over with empty words.

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 07:31 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hotgirl_03
[B]Jane im not making assumptions on who u r. if u dont like the fact that someone other than u is right...thats not my problem. all im tryin to tell u is that being in ketosis is not good. yea i have read articles like that one and many many others, but you can not just look at the "good". when ur body goes into ketosis is because u r depriving it out proteins, nutrients, carbs, or even fat.

*** I think some people have already caught onto this already but I'll make light of it again. You don't got a clue what Ketogenic diets are all about. How can you,when your understanding of the phisiology behind it is wrong?

hotgirl_03
05-07-2002, 07:33 PM
jane like i said there not enough room.

as to maki i agree with u there may have been other health problems present with those people...proof ill get u some u wait....

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 07:44 PM
Here are just a few abstracts for you to chew on.

Ketogenic diet: an alternative treatment for refractory epilepsy in children.

Kankirawatana P, Jirapinyo P, Kankirawatana S, Wongarn R, Thamanasiri N.

Department of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine Siriraj Hospital, Mahidol University, Bangkok, Thailand.

RATIONALE: The aim of this study was to establish the first ketogenic diet treatment program for refractory epilepsy in Thailand and to assess its feasibility as well as its efficacy. METHOD: Children with refractory epilepsy were enrolled in the study. This was a prospective open trial study with 35 children (16 boys and 19 girls). Not all patients started on the diet at the same time. Each patient was cumulatively enrolled in this study over the period of 4 years. The mean age on diet was 5.37 +/- 3.57 years (2 months-13 years), mean age of onset of seizures was 19.2 +/- 27.47 months (1 days-8 years), and an average duration on ketogenic diet was 7.67 months (6 days to 29 months). The classic "4:1" formula ketogenic diet was used with some modification. The patient's parents were allowed to improvise and use any fatty diets available in the market such as coconut milk if needed. Parents were closely supervised and instructed on how to prepare the patient's own meals while in the hospital and continued to attend neurology and nutrition clinics. The seizure outcome and side effects were monitored as well as a daily test for urine ketone. RESULTS: At 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, and 12 months duration on the diet, 90 per cent seizure reductions were achieved in 62.5 per cent, 68.18 per cent, 75 per cent, and 66.67 per cent of patients remaining on the diet, respectively. The number of antiepileptic drugs (AEDs) used by each patient also decreased as a result of better seizure control. CONCLUSION: Ketogenic diet can be tried as a management option for refractory epilepsy. It is not difficult to implement even in a developing country like Thailand where resources are limited. It may also help reduce the cost of treatment especially in view of the high prices of the new AEDs.


Effects of a ketogenic diet on tumor metabolism and nutritional status in pediatric oncology patients: two case reports.

Nebeling LC, Miraldi F, Shurin SB, Lerner E.

Nutrition Department, Case Western Reserve University, School of Medicine, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

OBJECTIVE: Establish dietary-induced ketosis in pediatric oncology patients to determine if a ketogenic state would decrease glucose availability to certain tumors, thereby potentially impairing tumor metabolism without adversely affecting the patient's overall nutritional status. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University Hospitals of Cleveland. SUBJECTS: Two female pediatric patients with advanced stage malignant Astrocytoma tumors. INTERVENTIONS: Patients were followed as outpatients for 8 weeks. Ketosis was maintained by consuming a 60% medium chain triglyceride oil-based diet. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Tumor glucose metabolism was assessed by Positron Emission Tomography (PET), comparing [Fluorine-18] 2-deoxy-2-fluoro-D-glucose (FDG) uptake at the tumor site before and following the trial period. RESULTS: Within 7 days of initiating the ketogenic diet, blood glucose levels declined to low-normal levels and blood ketones were elevated twenty to thirty fold. Results of PET scans indicated a 21.8% average decrease in glucose uptake at the tumor site in both subjects. One patient exhibited significant clinical improvements in mood and new skill development during the study. She continued the ketogenic diet for an additional twelve months, remaining free of disease progression. CONCLUSION: While this diet does not replace conventional antineoplastic treatments, these preliminary results suggest a potential for clinical application which merits further research.


Protein sparing during treatment of obesity: ketogenic versus nonketogenic very low calorie diet.

Vazquez JA, Adibi SA.

Department of Medicine, Montefiore University Hospital, Pittsburgh, PA 15213.

Although it is generally agreed that both ketogenic and nonketogenic very low calorie diets promote weight reduction, there is no consensus on a preference of one diet over the other in regard to protein sparing. In the present study, we compared the effects of isocaloric (600 kcal/d) and isonitrogenous (8 g nitrogen/d) ketogenic (low carbohydrate) and nonketogenic diets on parameters of protein and amino acid metabolism, in 16 morbidly obese women maintained on these diets for 4 weeks while confined to a metabolic ward. Cumulative urinary nitrogen excretion (g/4 wk) was significantly (P less than .01) greater (248 +/- 6 v 207 +/- 12, mean +/- SEM, n = 8), and cumulative nitrogen balance significantly (P less than .02) more negative (-50.4 +/- 4.4 v -18.8 +/- 5.7), during treatment with the ketogenic than with the nonketogenic diet. Plasma leucine concentration (mumol/L) was significantly higher (P less than .05) during treatment with the ketogenic than with the nonketogenic diet at day 14 (210 +/- 17 v 150 +/- 8), but not at day 28 (174 +/- 9 v 148 +/- 8). Whole-body rates of leucine oxidation (mmol/h) were significantly higher (P less than .05) during treatment with the ketogenic than with the nonketogenic diet at day 14 (1.29 +/- 0.20 v 0.92 +/- 0.10) and at day 28 (1.00 +/- 0.16 v 0.75 +/- 0.10). Conversely, proteolysis, as measured by leucine turnover rate and urinary excretion of 3-methylhistidine, was not significantly different between the diets.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

the_hall
05-07-2002, 07:49 PM
Jane, i was being sarcastic with that remark.


jane theres not enough room to quote everything u said.

It doesn't matter, you dont know how to use the quote function anyway. You just copy and paste what people say, then put quotation marks around it.

Basically, nothing you say makes any sense. Your just entartaining to me, i find it funny when people spew nonsense like you do.

Blood&Iron
05-07-2002, 07:50 PM
Why are you even responding, Jane and Maki?

If someone from the Flat Earth society came up and started lecturing me, I would simply look them squarely in the eye, laugh heartily, and walk away. Witness my lack of participation in this thread.

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 08:00 PM
B@I, I have 3 hours left on my shift at work.
I need somethng to pass the time.:)

Jane
05-07-2002, 08:10 PM
I know right.

This IS entertaining.

Besides, who knows who else could be reading this?

Blood&Iron
05-07-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Jane
I know right.

This IS entertaining.

Really? When I get embroiled in arguments like this, I tend to want to put my fist through the monitor, and hunt down the person with whom I'm arguing and strangle him with my bare hands.

the doc
05-07-2002, 08:32 PM
princess, what are ketones? DO you even know?
What are their purpose?

maybe you should find out?

Maki Riddington
05-07-2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

Really? When I get embroiled in arguments like this, I tend to want to put my fist through the monitor, and hunt down the person with whom I'm arguing and strangle him with my bare hands.

*** I've noticed that you seem to lose your sense of humor when a debate arises.:)

Accipiter
05-07-2002, 08:49 PM
Is hotgirl_03 really another member with a different name. He/She seems to be following all of the typical stereotypes we here associate with the whole strong-headed misinformed newbie approach.

Paul Stagg
05-08-2002, 07:27 AM
her IP doesn't match anyone exactly.

Princess wasn't totally clueless, so I don't think it's her.

No one dies because of the Atkins diet. Obviously, hotgirl has limited knowledge regarding ketosis and ketogenic diets.

Tryska
05-08-2002, 07:52 AM
wow.....how did i miss this thread earlier?

*lmao*

this is hilarious.


in any case, hot_girl is very mis-informed.

hotgirl_03
05-08-2002, 10:23 AM
no i am not someone else. and u people wants some proof well here it is...
http://www.weight-dieting.org/atkins.htm
http://inch-aweigh.com/dangeratkins.html
http://www.drfuhrman.com/atkins.htm
http://suewidemark.netfirms.com/atkinsdiet_aha.htm
http://208.133.254.45/search/display.asp?Id=425&caller=455

However, according to the American Institute for Cancer Research (AICR), deliberately inducing ketosis can lead to muscle breakdown, dehydration, headaches, nausea, and kidney problems. Further, the AICR warns, "By omitting certain foods, and sometimes even entire food groups, these diets are deficient in such major nutrients as dietary fiber and carbohydrates, as well as in selected vitamins, minerals, and protective phytochemicals."

hotgirl_03
05-08-2002, 10:26 AM
carbs are needed to generate ur brain and no carb diets are bad.

Tryska
05-08-2002, 10:38 AM
"Dr Atkins diet plan is Bad Psychology because it requires you to give up FOREVER and FOREVER such treats as chocolate cake, spaghetti, french fries, pancakes, apple pie, mashed potatoes. You are a rare person indeed who can give all of these up forever. Even Dr Atkins admits that if you go off the diet, your weight will come back."

(this is from the first link)

chocolate cake, spaghetti, french fried, pancakes, apple pie and mashed potatoes are prolly what got ya fat in the first place. And atkins is absolutely right...if you go back to eating these foods the weight absolutely will come back, along with water.

what i find funny is the mention of healthy weightloss including possible food allergies. that's very valid, but you know what? nine times out of 10 those food allergies will include any or all of the foods listed above as being food you can never eat again.

Perconally i prefer a true Ketogenic Diet to Atkins, simply because fo the calorie factor, but Atkins is right on, in many of his points. I also don't believe you can blame fat for Heart Disease without considering carb intake in conjunction with fat intake. no ones done studies on that tho. curiously enough.


i skimmed over the other links...i've yet to see studies that back any of the claims made by these people.


a ketogenic diet, works, is a short term, and IMO should not be used to try to lose weight if you are overly fat. it's an advanced cutting tool. It's not dangerous in any way, particularly if short term, but would i sugges tit to someone who is 100lbs overweight as a way to make a lifestyle change? no. Not necessarily int he way Atkins does in any case.

Tryska
05-08-2002, 10:39 AM
a ketogenic diet is also not no-carb.

30gs per day and then an unlimited carbup one a week.

Accipiter
05-08-2002, 11:35 AM
about the editor (of the 1st article) "Maia is a certified personal fitness trainer who works at a country club fitness center in south Florida. She really loves being a part of the fitness industry
and helping people to improve their health and well being."

we ALL know how hard it is to become a certified fitness trainer.....

Accipiter
05-08-2002, 11:36 AM
and for all those articles you cna find just as many that approve of the diet. Basically anything and everything that we consume at one time or another has been called dangerous. It's just a matter of how you use what you eat to get to your goals.

Jane
05-08-2002, 01:50 PM
The first link also links to this:
"Learning from the Anorexics"
http://www.weight-dieting.org/slender2.htm


Tryska is 100% correct on all points. Especially the fact that there are no studies backing up any of those claims, as well as the difference between a lifestyle change for an overweight person and a short term cutting tool.

Jane
05-08-2002, 01:54 PM
"weight loss is mostly muscle (the ketosis that the Atkins diet encourages is the product of the body burning muscle). What I have observed in friends who did this type of diet is that after the weight loss, they become very much fatter than before because of all the muscle they lost and the fat they gain back"

from the fourth link. :bang:

Tryska
05-08-2002, 03:06 PM
oh my god.

i can't believe that anorexic link. i'm offended by that actually.

anyways.....that fourth link you quoted is pur bs.

how can ketosis be the product of burning muscles if ketones bodies are actually the bu-product of fat metabolism.

what assfaces.

cwny69
05-08-2002, 03:21 PM
I GUESS IM NOT DOING THE ATKINS DIET IF IM GONNA REGAIN ALL MY FAT LOSS THANKS HOTGIRL

Jane
05-08-2002, 03:24 PM
Are you listening at all?

cwny69
05-08-2002, 03:45 PM
YEA

Maki Riddington
05-08-2002, 04:17 PM
...........apparently not.............:rolleyes:

InferiorDesign
05-08-2002, 04:45 PM
maki i seriously doubt more than 50% lived past 20, and 20% of the remaining lived past 40. people dont live long with a limited diet, in an unsanitary world, thats freezing cold

Maki Riddington
05-08-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
maki i seriously doubt more than 50% lived past 20, and 20% of the remaining lived past 40. people dont live long with a limited diet, in an unsanitary world, thats freezing cold

*** That's a invalid arguement. What you think and a fact are two different things. Show me I'm wrong and prove that Inuits actually only live to see 20. While the others only survive till they're 40.

InferiorDesign
05-08-2002, 06:06 PM
Why dont you prove me wrong? i could care less how long some inuits lived. i seriously doubt that any of them lived long healthy lives. its not natural for someone to eat raw fish and seal all day and live as long and as someone with a natural diet of all the things in all the food groups. and what im saying is that most died BY 20, and most of the rest died BY 40. not everyone dies at once, as im sure you so purposefully made it sound in your last post

the doc
05-08-2002, 06:22 PM
inferior please provide some evidence that the inuit age-based mortality rate is any different than that for other cultures when correct for the presence of medern medical care

Maki Riddington
05-08-2002, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by InferiorDesign
[B]Why dont you prove me wrong? i could care less how long some inuits lived.

*** Inferior, since you're the one making these empty statements it would be up to you to back them up. Of course your just trying to turn things around because you've got no proof. Something that is rather common when someone knows they're wrong.
I'm sure you don't care how long they live. But that isn't my point.
Please reread my posts so that you can better understand the point I'm trying to convey.

i seriously doubt that any of them lived long healthy lives. its not natural for someone to eat raw fish and seal all day and live as long and as someone with a natural diet of all the things in all the food groups. and what im saying is that most died BY 20, and most of the rest died BY 40. not everyone dies at once, as im sure you so purposefully made it sound in your last post

*** Well, I'll play your little game. According to Stats Canada (1996), there are 41000 odd Inuits residing in this land. Of these 41000, roughly more than 16000 Inuits have lived past the age of 20.
I'll leave the math up to you.
Now there's some Inuit blubber to chew on.

InferiorDesign
05-08-2002, 07:22 PM
those odds are worse than the odds i stated....dude, you just proved my point even more correct. if 16k out of 41k live past 20 than less than 40% live passed 20. this proves the atkins diet sucks

Maki Riddington
05-08-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
those odds are worse than the odds i stated....dude, you just proved my point even more correct. if 16k out of 41k live past 20 than less than 40% live passed 20. this proves the atkins diet sucks

*** What you've failed to see is that the other percentage is still under the age of 20.

hotgirl_03
05-08-2002, 07:58 PM
if any of u had been listening (or reading) ud realize that i was never against short term ketosis or ketosis diets, but that i am against the atkins diet which under takes ones body into long periods of time in ketosis. ketosis isnt bad for ur body in short term, its the long term ketosis that screws up ones body.

the_hall
05-08-2002, 08:35 PM
I love bieng in ketosis! I feel great! Hotgurl, why dont you just accept the fact that you dont have 1/10th the knowledge on bodybuilding or dieting as paul, b&I and maki. The reason no one is listening to you is because it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about by reading your posts.

Why are you even on a bodybuilding forum?

BTW, I think I will stay in ketosis forever hotgurl, I dont ever want to leave ketosis!!!!

the doc
05-08-2002, 08:37 PM
well hotgirl that is fine. WIth regard to adkins type dieting, one must consider several things. THe first is that it is a relatively new phenomina (well not actually but that is another story) and there are simply not the well-performed long-term studies needed to really evaluate its safety.
NOw taking adkins dieting in its medical context, for treating cardiovascular disease it is quite effective and probably preferred for long-term use. why? the alternative is even more risky. Very poor blood lipid profiles, artheriosclerosis, and general cardiovascular disease are the alternative. Cholesterol lowering statin drug are also an option but they are risky as well.

hotgirl_03
05-09-2002, 06:32 AM
One more post like this and you're getting the boot.

the_hall
05-09-2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
sorry i dont sit on my ass all day contridicting everything that people say because i dont have anything else to do in life. hall why dont u just go kiss some more ass.

Did you just say you dont sit on your ass "contridicting" everything that people say because you dont have anything else to do in life? What do you think your doing on this thread **** brains?

What basically happend is you came on here and said something stupid. THen people told you that you were completley wrong, which you are. Then people told you eventhough you are wrong, they would still do a ckd diet even if it was dangerous. That translates that no one cares about your opinions, because again, they are completley wrong. Lots of people disagree on these boards, but atleast they have the knowledge of what they are talking about to back up what they say, they just dont repeat what the Coach Joe said in health 101.

Im not going to post on this thread anymore, im sick of arguing with you. People who are experts and have researched this subject have already given you evidence of why you are wrong. Then you just come back and say "but...but... but...". You can't even spell right, and you have showed no evidence you have any idea what a ckd or ketosis is. This thread should be closed because no one should have to waste their time arguing with you about this, you dont know any more about dieting than the average person off the street. When ST writes an article saying low carb diets are bad, people should read it because he does know what he is talking about. But when you come on here and can't spell, why should anyone think you are right? No one on this board is ever going to consider taking your advice, so just stop. If you dont like ckd diets then dont do one, you just using up board space. Most people are laughing at you and this thread.

Tryska
05-09-2002, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
its not natural for someone to eat raw fish and seal all day and live as long and as someone with a natural diet of all the things in all the food groups.


*lmao*


wanna tell me what a "natural diet" consisting of all the things from all the food groups means?


and doc......i agree with ya on using a keto long term for CV Disease. it really does work when you get those insulin-inducing carbs out of the picture.


oh and hall......damn bro..never thought i;d say this, but....respect.

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-09-2002, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03
if any of u had been listening (or reading) ud realize that i was never against short term ketosis or ketosis diets, but that i am against the atkins diet which under takes ones body into long periods of time in ketosis. ketosis isnt bad for ur body in short term, its the long term ketosis that screws up ones body.

Well I'm no buff on keto diets, but from what i've read the human body can actually adapt to ketosis over time. The eskimos being an example (although maybe it was cause their protein intake was too high?)

There's more danger if you go into keto too fast. It can effect the pH of your blood and you can get ketoacidosis which can be life thretening. If you get into keto relatively slowly then there's no problems.

And don't jump on me for saying this, but i've read that there is even some evidence that a slightly ketogenic state may be beneficial. Now i wasn't shown the evidence so i dunno how valid this point is. Just thought i'd bring it up in case anyone else does know about it.

Tryska
05-09-2002, 09:38 AM
actually i agree, chigs.

in some people. we won't get into my views totally since y'all think i'm a wacko, but, in certain people, being in or near to ketosis and keeping their muscles in a slightly acidic state is more beneficial.

hotgirl_03
05-09-2002, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
actually i agree, chigs.

in some people. we won't get into my views totally since y'all think i'm a wacko, but, in certain people, being in or near to ketosis and keeping their muscles in a slightly acidic state is more beneficial.

how is it more benefical? when u over produce ketones it throws off ur acid-base balance in ur blood. some people have had kidney problems resulting from it.

K-Daddy
05-09-2002, 10:11 AM
When people say "ketogenic diets like Atkins are bad," they're wrong, not exactly in saying that ketogenic diets are bad, but "ketogenic diets like Atkins"...Atkins is only "half-ketogenic," and, if you're on it for life, the times that you're in ketosis don't even compare to the times you aren't.

Most people look at the Induction period of the Atkins diet as being the only facet of the Atkins diet. That's the 20g or less period. Atkins recommends it for only TWO WEEKS. Now, granted, how many people do you know that have actually gone through all four phases of the Atkins diet? Not many. Most will do the Induction phase for I dunno how long and then just try to maintain on a regular diet. Sure, that's fine. It works a lot of the time as long as it's eased into carefully. The Atkins diet itself, though, is not meant to be a ketogenic diet for the rest of your life. The 3rd phase is spent finding what your CCLM (Critical Carbohydrate Level for Maintenance) is and the 4th phase is just maintenance, eating that many carbs a day.

It seems like people take the Induction phase to be what the Atkins diet is. Dr. Atkins himself even pointed this out in his book, saying that that's what people would call out instead of bothering to get all the information. I personally get tired of people bashing it because it's "unhealthy" and that you're "depriving your body of its nutrients." Like others have pointed out, the Inuits have lived for many years on very low-carbohydrate diets. Many lowcarbers are also very happy with their way of eating and are healthier than they've ever been.

-Justin

hotgirl_03
05-09-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by the_hall
I love bieng in ketosis! I feel great! Hotgurl, why dont you just accept the fact that you dont have 1/10th the knowledge on bodybuilding or dieting as paul, b&I and maki. The reason no one is listening to you is because it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about by reading your posts.

BTW, I think I will stay in ketosis forever hotgurl, I dont ever want to leave ketosis!!!!

oh god get over urself. obviously ur listening to me because u keep writing back. i have no idea huh? thats right. if u dont agree with me dont listen, sorry ur so unimformed on ketosis. i bet ur not even in ketosis and just want to argue with someone. get a life.

PowerManDL
05-09-2002, 10:32 AM
I'm gonna back hotgirl on this.

We don't have long-term studies, and considering the chemical nature of ketones, I wouldn't want them in my body for long periods of time.

Also, what exactly IS the lipid profile of someone who's been eating very high amounts of fat?

(bear with me if that's been covered as I didn't wade through 4 pages of this)

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-09-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03


how is it more benefical? when u over produce ketones it throws off ur acid-base balance in ur blood. some people have had kidney problems resulting from it.

The body adapts to this.

And i'd like to see who got kidney damage from it. And how they could pin it down to the diet.

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-09-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Also, what exactly IS the lipid profile of someone who's been eating very high amounts of fat?

depends what type of fat the person is eating.

I recall in NHE Rob refers to a guy who ate 30 eggs a day for 25 years and his cholesterol and lipid profiles were fine.



Most of the studies that show high blood lipids and cholesterol from high fat intake weren't keeping tabs on carb intake at the time.

the doc
05-09-2002, 10:39 AM
Actually there is a complex carbonate/bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffering system in the blood which tightly regulates blood pH

ketoacidosis is a problem for diabetics- why? because they have no ability to regulate the production of ketones. In normal people the body compensates for excessive ketone production by recruiting glucose by gluconeogenesis (from protein). Diabetics contain no insulin to process this glucose- resulting in runaway ketone production

the doc
05-09-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
I'm gonna back hotgirl on this.

We don't have long-term studies, and considering the chemical nature of ketones, I wouldn't want them in my body for long periods of time.

Also, what exactly IS the lipid profile of someone who's been eating very high amounts of fat?

(bear with me if that's been covered as I didn't wade through 4 pages of this)


actually there are a number of studies (albeit many funded by Dr. adkins) which show very favorible effects on total cholesterol, lipid ratios, and total triglycerides

the doc
05-09-2002, 10:45 AM
...considering the chemical nature of ketones...

what characteristics are you referring to?

hotgirl_03
05-09-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


The body adapts to this.

And i'd like to see who got kidney damage from it. And how they could pin it down to the diet.

yes the body does adapt to this to a certain point, but u cant continually put ur body through this. as to the kidney damage im sure that docters can pinpoint it to the diet. not everyone is the exception as Dr. Atkins was.

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-09-2002, 01:19 PM
I'd like to see proof that ketones cause kidney damage.

Neil
05-09-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Jane
Neil: 1 question. Are we born with self control? Or do we develop it?


Self control is taught just like anything else. Your question doesn't change the fact that no self control= no results.

Jane
05-09-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Neil
Self control is taught just like anything else. Your question doesn't change the fact that no self control= no results.
Self control takes time to develop. There ARE grey areas, so cut people who are not yet bodybuilder-strict some slack while they learn.

Actually, now that I've heard more of what this guy has to say, I'm changing my mind. I don't think he's working on developing anything. But the principle applies for everyone who is actually trying to change their lifestyle and themselves.

PowerManDL
05-09-2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by the doc


what characteristics are you referring to?

The fact that they're highly reactive radicals. Ever poured acetone on plastic?

the doc
05-09-2002, 03:14 PM
ahhh but i have my young ninja warrior

and what happens has nothing to do with free radicals. It is a process called solvation whereby the polymer which comprises plastic (typically a low density polyethylene) is dissolved in the acetone. If you were to evaporate the acetone you would quantitatively recover the plastic unchanged.
Acetone itself is not a free radical and neither are any of the ketone bodies.

PowerManDL
05-09-2002, 04:59 PM
Its a carbonyl group attached to two radicals, correct?

Tryska
05-09-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by hotgirl_03


how is it more benefical? when u over produce ketones it throws off ur acid-base balance in ur blood. some people have had kidney problems resulting from it.


i said slightly acidic and near ketosis. for certain people.

the doc
05-09-2002, 06:00 PM
it is a carbonyl group attached to two methyls

CH3C(O)CH3

PowerManDL
05-09-2002, 06:17 PM
What's the structure of the ketones found in the body? I really haven't done a whole lot of looking into the exact biochemistry involved.

Besides, I thought carbonyl was a radical in and of itself, as were the methyl groups? The definition I have of a ketone is a carbonyl radical attached to two carbon radicals.

the doc
05-09-2002, 06:30 PM
no it is not a radical. A radical is any organic compound that has an unpaired electron.
The carbonyl group simply refers to any carbon which has a double bond to oxygen. aldehydes, ketones, and carboxylic acids all have carbonyl groups in them.

the ketone bodies are formed from the condensation of acetyl CoA with itself or another ketone body. H3CC(O)SCoA -> H3CC(O)CH2COOH (acetyl acetic acid)
-> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH (acetyl butyric acid)
acetyl acetone loses carbon dioxide to form acetone
H3CC(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH3 + CO2
and so does acetylbutyric acid to form acetyl acetone
H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH3 + CO2

none of these processes involve radicals

Jane
05-09-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by the doc
no it is not a radical. A radical is any organic compound that has an unpaired electron.
The carbonyl group simply refers to any carbon which has a double bond to oxygen. aldehydes, ketones, and carboxylic acids all have carbonyl groups in them.

the ketone bodies are formed from the condensation of acetyl CoA. H3CC(O)SCoA -> H3CC(O)CH2COOH (acetyl acetic acid)
-> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH (acetyl butyric acid)
acetyl acetone loses carbon dioxide to form acetone
H3CC(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH3 + CO2
and so does acetylbutyric acid to form acetyl acetone
H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH3 + CO2

none of these processes involve radicals

You rule. :thumbup:

the doc
05-09-2002, 10:27 PM
;)

Tryska
05-10-2002, 07:07 AM
he ain't called the grease man for nothin'. *lol*

nice one.

hotgirl_03
05-10-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by the doc
no it is not a radical. A radical is any organic compound that has an unpaired electron.
The carbonyl group simply refers to any carbon which has a double bond to oxygen. aldehydes, ketones, and carboxylic acids all have carbonyl groups in them.

the ketone bodies are formed from the condensation of acetyl CoA with itself or another ketone body. H3CC(O)SCoA -> H3CC(O)CH2COOH (acetyl acetic acid)
-> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH (acetyl butyric acid)
acetyl acetone loses carbon dioxide to form acetone
H3CC(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH3 + CO2
and so does acetylbutyric acid to form acetyl acetone
H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH2COOH -> H3CC(O)CH2C(O)CH3 + CO2

none of these processes involve radicals

thats nice work there!:clap: :clap:

Tryska
05-10-2002, 11:09 AM
btw docarooni......

can ya see if you can dig up some info on this little tidbit i found in my new favorite magazine?

"Duke University researchers, headed by Dr. William Yancy, found that paitients on low-carb diets had greater weight loss, more fat loss, and more favorable changes in blood fats than those on a low-fat diet. (Abstract 14)" (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 75:2002)

pretty please? (i'm curious as to how they set it up - and i figure you've got connects ;) )

the doc
05-10-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
btw docarooni......

can ya see if you can dig up some info on this little tidbit i found in my new favorite magazine?

"Duke University researchers, headed by Dr. William Yancy, found that paitients on low-carb diets had greater weight loss, more fat loss, and more favorable changes in blood fats than those on a low-fat diet. (Abstract 14)" (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 75:2002)

pretty please? (i'm curious as to how they set it up - and i figure you've got connects ;) )

I can look this up on monday. I'd do it now but i'm not set up for proxy here :)

Curious about this as well. I plan on cutting in another 5-10 lbs ;)

the doc
05-10-2002, 03:00 PM
oh yes...

always make connects dont break em

errr whatever that guy always said

Tryska
05-11-2002, 07:53 AM
that's right doc.....make connects, don't break connects.

LOVE that phrase!

Celestial
05-11-2002, 08:40 AM
InferiorDesign- I know I got into this thread a while after it started lol but anyways, I disaagree with what you said...I tried and failed many times before I suceeded and i STILL CHEAT at times (like last night) but I have lost 98 pounds so far and you can not tell me I didn't want it or didn't have any self control....it takes time to change your mind and your body, you cant go from just living one way to living another...its a gradual thing.

InferiorDesign
05-11-2002, 08:43 AM
im just saying youll get alot further if you put your all into it. if you give out a little, or give out alot, and keep control things, then you just dont care enough. youve lost all your weight, so you dont have to care as much as you used to

Celestial
05-11-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
im just saying youll get alot further if you put your all into it. if you give out a little, or give out alot, and keep control things, then you just dont care enough. youve lost all your weight, so you dont have to care as much as you used to THATS BULL ****! You obviously have never been where either of us have you have no freaken idea what its like. It's not as easy as you seem to think. There have been plenty of times I have put my "all" into it and havnt gotten any results...the body is complicated. It doesnt always do what you want it to. I havtn lost all my weight I still have about 50 lbs to go and I actually have to worry about it more then I did before because it is getting tougher for the weight to come off. I have to care even MORE cause I want to make sure I keep it off as well.....you have NO clue what your talking about.

Jane
05-11-2002, 01:07 PM
:clap:

InferiorDesign
05-11-2002, 01:11 PM
you say you gave it your all and got no results, we obviously have a very different opinion of what a persons will is capable of, which gives us both very different opinions. and im way done with this, nothing you can say will deter me from thinking that more can be acheived by caring less.

Shao-LiN
05-11-2002, 05:03 PM
When you start out, it's kind of hard to say whether or not you get results. After all, you're still a beginner to some extent and trying to figure out what works for you.

That's what this all is really, finding out what will work for you.

If you find yourself cheating all of the time, it's time to re-evaluate your diet. Also need to understand that you have to make sacrifices to get to where you want...will power is a big part of it for me.

Personally, I eat a clean diet 6 days out of the week and then Sunday is my free day. I still try to eat healthy and in moderation, but I'm not measuring every little thing. Sunday is the day I look forward to, hehe. It's like a reward for eating great and working out throughout the week.

Works fine for me.

Celestial
05-11-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by InferiorDesign
you say you gave it your all and got no results, we obviously have a very different opinion of what a persons will is capable of, which gives us both very different opinions. and im way done with this, nothing you can say will deter me from thinking that more can be acheived by caring less. Well here is my definition so you wont be as confused!

for 3 months I ate 1800 cals, 115 g or carbs or less a day. I worked out 6 days a week usually at least 30 mins of cardio a day plus weight lifting twice a week....plus abs, stretching etc. And I saw no results for almost 3 months cause I was on a plateua (sp) anyways if that isnt giving it my all i dunno what is..plus I work (standing on my feet) 8-12 hours a day...so whatever dude. I dont want to change your mind, i could pretty much care less what you think cause its pretty obvious you don't know what your talking about.

I am not gonna say what he is doing is right/wrong...but I will say that he dodesnt stick with it long enough to see results...cause he wants fast results...wee all do. Eventually he will learn that it doesnt happen that way. But I know where he is coming from and it's obvious you dont ...

the doc
05-11-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Celestial
THATS BULL ****! You obviously have never been where either of us have you have no freaken idea what its like


calm down, we have established that inferior is lacking in both intelligence and experience.

Celestial
05-11-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by the doc



calm down, we have established that inferior is lacking in both intelligence and experience. :D haha that was great:)

I am calm ;) Those are the words I thought when I read what he wrote....had to start of my reply with them :) lol

Blood&Iron
05-11-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by the doc



calm down, we have established that inferior is lacking in both intelligence and experience.
No sh*t.:D

the doc
05-13-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
btw docarooni......

can ya see if you can dig up some info on this little tidbit i found in my new favorite magazine?

"Duke University researchers, headed by Dr. William Yancy, found that paitients on low-carb diets had greater weight loss, more fat loss, and more favorable changes in blood fats than those on a low-fat diet. (Abstract 14)" (Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 75:2002)

pretty please? (i'm curious as to how they set it up - and i figure you've got connects ;) )

Bump for tryska,
check your PM! ;)