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StLRPh
05-06-2010, 11:58 AM
So in my random googling of powerlifting programming I came across Joe Average. And I have to admit that I'm a little confused by. Looks like a ton of band work.

This is the where I found it:
http://joeaverageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Articles&action=display&thread=2827

Anyone have any experiences with it? Any links that I could check out that would be a little more user friendly?

Thanks in advance,

matt

Travis Bell
05-06-2010, 12:06 PM
I'll just put this here....

m4Hkzy_ANXc

These are some of the highschoolers that he bases his program off of. Not a real sound program in my opinion

MarcusWild
05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
They have meet videos on YouTube. Just checkout their meet performance.

StLRPh
05-06-2010, 01:09 PM
Thanks Travis/Marcus. I can't do videos from work but I think I know which video that is.

drew
05-06-2010, 01:43 PM
All you need to know is the guy is using programming methods on teenage kids that shouldn't be used by anyone anywhere. He gives strength coaches a bad name and will eventually injure or kill one of his athletes. Many people have tried to talk sense into the guy, but he is convinced that what he is doing is good (even though there is meet footage of every one of these kids missing depth, missing weights, and altogether collapsing under weights (this is in a meet!)

He also atatches Joe Mazza's name to his "work". I don't know if Mazza is aware of this guy (though there are some vids of him training with them) but it kind of wrecks his reputation to b asociated with them.

seK
05-06-2010, 01:57 PM
I'll just put this here....

m4Hkzy_ANXc

These are some of the highschoolers that he bases his program off of. Not a real sound program in my opinion

WTF is the kid with the sun glasses doing?

StLRPh
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the info. I saw this video on a different board a little while ago and didn't realize it was the same guy until Travis' post.

douglasoh5
05-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Dont do anything this guys says.

AdamBAG
05-06-2010, 02:31 PM
Dont do anything this guys says.

Rich, that isn't you, Billy, and AJ getting coached up by Lou????? :)

Ryan Hale
05-06-2010, 03:18 PM
That is a joke. Wow.

Ryan Hale

Cmanuel
05-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Wtf? This is a disgrace.

H_M
05-06-2010, 05:55 PM
i've been watching some of this guy's videos and the more i watch the more pissed i get. you don't treat/ train people like this. look at the first 30 seconds.

ar9qbgdgwR8

Clover
05-06-2010, 06:21 PM
I laughed and then just felt bad for them the more I watched. The video where they do a meet is just pathetic. None of them make depth and one of them gets crushed.

tomv
05-06-2010, 06:26 PM
Holy crap... This guy is a shmuck

seK
05-06-2010, 06:28 PM
I laughed and then just felt bad for them the more I watched. The video where they do a meet is just pathetic. None of them make depth and one of them gets crushed.

Hmm where is this video?

joey54
05-06-2010, 06:34 PM
Well.................................. Shay Larrisey who has a top 5 165 lb total and is a top 181 lb lifter as well has been training with Jim since the fall. He also comes and trains with us in Harrisburg a few times a week. He has a meet in New Jersey next weekend, so we'll see how he does. I t is my understanding many of these high school kids will be lifting there too, so I will get to witness this first hand.

Since Shay goes there I have read quite a bit about this "system" and watch the videos on a regular basis. Guess I try to keep an open mind, but that Hydock kid and many of the others should probably be using a starting strength or 5x5 template.

Clover
05-06-2010, 06:46 PM
Hmm where is this video?

OohXfScKSgQ&feature=related

I only watched the start so maybe its not as bad as I made it seem. I listened to it on mute but apparently they are making depth..

ehopkins932
05-06-2010, 07:07 PM
One almost got stapled and they almost all missed an attempt or two....

Travis Bell
05-06-2010, 07:38 PM
Well.................................. Shay Larrisey who has a top 5 165 lb total and is a top 181 lb lifter as well has been training with Jim since the fall. He also comes and trains with us in Harrisburg a few times a week. He has a meet in New Jersey next weekend, so we'll see how he does. I t is my understanding many of these high school kids will be lifting there too, so I will get to witness this first hand.

Since Shay goes there I have read quite a bit about this "system" and watch the videos on a regular basis. Guess I try to keep an open mind, but that Hydock kid and many of the others should probably be using a starting strength or 5x5 template.

Just curious, top 5 in what? His fed, class?

I hear what you're saying about keeping an open mind, but this stuff is just absolute garbage. The way he treats those kids is unnecessary and cheap. A good coach knows how to communicate himself and teach his kids without insulting them.

Secondly, those kids should NOT be in that much gear at those strength levels. Their joints are really not ready for it, body structure isn't ready for it, nor is it beneficial to their sports

And the other big problem I have with this stuff is the stupid amounts of band tension. I'm all for using bands, however that set up has taken a good idea and blown it out of proportion. Yes it strengthens their core, but it also creates huge strength gaps in their range of motion as well as giving them a false sense of stability. When you train with that much band tension, it locks you into a groove. Go back to straight weight and it's all over the place.

It's not a problem with his lifters, it's the coaches fault.

joey54
05-06-2010, 08:08 PM
Just curious, top 5 in what? His fed, class?

I hear what you're saying about keeping an open mind, but this stuff is just absolute garbage. The way he treats those kids is unnecessary and cheap. A good coach knows how to communicate himself and teach his kids without insulting them.

Secondly, those kids should NOT be in that much gear at those strength levels. Their joints are really not ready for it, body structure isn't ready for it, nor is it beneficial to their sports

And the other big problem I have with this stuff is the stupid amounts of band tension. I'm all for using bands, however that set up has taken a good idea and blown it out of proportion. Yes it strengthens their core, but it also creates huge strength gaps in their range of motion as well as giving them a false sense of stability. When you train with that much band tension, it locks you into a groove. Go back to straight weight and it's all over the place.

It's not a problem with his lifters, it's the coaches fault.

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/13663

He got this total however when he was training with us full time.

Travis Bell
05-06-2010, 08:13 PM
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/13663

He got this total however when he was training with us full time.

Ah my bad, I was looking at the wrong year

I guess we both proved the same point though if he was training with you all full time lol.

Pete22
05-06-2010, 09:02 PM
All you need to know is the guy is using programming methods on teenage kids that shouldn't be used by anyone anywhere. He gives strength coaches a bad name and will eventually injure or kill one of his athletes. Many people have tried to talk sense into the guy, but he is convinced that what he is doing is good (even though there is meet footage of every one of these kids missing depth, missing weights, and altogether collapsing under weights (this is in a meet!)

He also atatches Joe Mazza's name to his "work". I don't know if Mazza is aware of this guy (though there are some vids of him training with them) but it kind of wrecks his reputation to b asociated with them.

Completely agree. Someone should inform these kids' parents before someone gets seriously hurt. What a tool.

Pete22
05-06-2010, 09:09 PM
OohXfScKSgQ&feature=related

I only watched the start so maybe its not as bad as I made it seem. I listened to it on mute but apparently they are making depth..

4:30

Clover
05-06-2010, 10:22 PM
4:30

I guess I was right the first time. I didn't watch that far though and only saw the first one who had to get bailed out.

depotman
05-06-2010, 11:55 PM
You know what's funny is the way those kids squat in the video (maybe a half squat) is the way most people squat at my gym. Sometimes it sucks for me because I normaly will have less weight on the bar because I am going way below parallel, compared to a lot of the guys who have a good bit of weight on the bar but they are only quarter or half squatting.

All good though cuz I know they are missing out on a lot of muscle work in their legs. My favorite are the guys that load up the leg press with a crap ton of weight thinking they are hot stuff but they never touch a squat bar.

Full range of motion is really something a lot of people don't understand on their lifts.

Really classic stuff, helps keep me entertained while working out :)

joey54
05-07-2010, 04:54 AM
Some of the phlisophies of this "system". *

One needs to train in gear all the time in order to get good with the gear. *

Gear needs to be extremely tight to be effective. *

I believe they base there training cycles off of two weeks.*

They adjust band tension throughout their cycles. *

It is a crazy amount of band tension.

No assistance work. *He feels the band tension addresses all weak points. **

They don't squat to depth because they are trying to accomodate there body to using weight heavier than it is used to.*

The big claim to fame is Joe Mazza trains with him and this was the "system" which took Gene Rychlak from a 500 lb bench presser to an 800 lb one. *

He claims he got his training philosphies from Louie Simmons and Dave Tate. *..................

Also early on he was part if elite fitness, at least as an author, but that didn't last too long. *I am just providing the information from what I have gathered. *I am not supporting the methods or this type of training. As I stated, there are much better ways these kids could be training. *But this guy is somewhat strong and his methods have worked in a limited manner for some people. *But, those people could also benefit from other training programs probably as well.*

Ryano
05-07-2010, 09:13 AM
This is an unusual thread for this forum. I'm definately NOT a Joe Average fan, but the whole thread is just about bashing him. Just seems to be out of the normal for this forum.

I just noticed there is an identical thread on "Outlaws". That's where I'd expect to see this.

drew
05-07-2010, 09:22 AM
This is an unusual thread for this forum. I'm definately NOT a Joe Average fan, but the whole thread is just about bashing him. Just seems to be out of the normal for this forum.

I think the difference here is that this is not about bashing someone for thier techniques or what they lift, etc. It's about someone who is clearly misguiding young kids and what he is doing could even be considered endangerment. He is unwilling to accept criticism or answer questions about his training (I've tried and I know others who have as well).

So you're left with a situation where the only way to even try to get someone like this to stop and rethink what he is doing is to either let him continue until someone gets seriously hurt, or to try and discredit and embarass him whenever possible.

I generally don't care about how and what other people do concerning their own training, but as a father, watching these videos infuriates me because I know the parents of these kids have no idea how bad this guy really is.

douglasoh5
05-07-2010, 10:02 AM
Rich, that isn't you, Billy, and AJ getting coached up by Lou????? :)

lol i would put my full opinion on this crap but there would be alot of cursing. The dude is a joke though

Brian Hopper
05-07-2010, 08:18 PM
I'll just put this here....

m4Hkzy_ANXc

These are some of the highschoolers that he bases his program off of. Not a real sound program in my opinion

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Brian Hopper
05-07-2010, 08:19 PM
:cool: That last kid squatting was my favorite!!!!

Counterweight
05-07-2010, 10:12 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression you used a squat suit when you were squatting like 600+lbs. These kids are doing like 150 with bands but are using suits? Seems like huge overkill to me, but then again I don't know much about suits.

chris mason
05-08-2010, 07:58 AM
I am honestly stunned at the level of ineptitude on dislpay by that 'coach'. The guy is horribly misinforming and training those kids. I just hate to see stuff like that.

Ryan Hale
05-08-2010, 08:16 AM
Chris,
It about makes me ill watching that BS. I have zero idea who this guy is,but those kids deserve better. Think how he is affecting their future. You ever hear the phrase "you coach as you were coached". These kids might
try the same once they get older-train younger lifters.

Weak looking lifters.Thin builds on all of them. Not strong at all. Squats look terrible.Could go on and on.



Ryan Hale

chris mason
05-08-2010, 08:47 AM
The one thing I would not do is pick on how the kids look. They are just young teens beginning to train with weights and being coached by an idiot. The one thing you would hope is they might do a little reading on their own and come to the realization they need to get away from the coach.

sayagain
05-08-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree with not picking on the way these kids look. They need a good coach that will teach them proper technique and good form. They need a solid foundation and strength level before they start suiting up and using massive amounts of band tension.

StLRPh
05-08-2010, 09:11 AM
:cool: That last kid squatting was my favorite!!!!

Did I hear "too deep"???

Ryan Hale
05-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Sorry guys,did not mean to come across as I was picking on those kids. Not at all. What I was trying to say
was why use advanced techniques on a young lifter that is not that strong. I sure could have worded things better. They just don't look like strong kids to me.

Whats this guys history?

Ryan Hale

MadChef
05-08-2010, 12:07 PM
They just don't look like strong kids to me

These kids look like they're 13-14... I don't know about you, but I wasn't very strong at 13.

As far as the vids go... just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. To have these young kids in suits, knee wraps, belts and not squatting to depth at all.... wtf?!?! And in one video, this kid isn't even hitting close to parallel (and I realize they're 1/4 squats but, seriously?) the coach is saying "great, good job". Just pathetic. And then that kid in the sunglasses comes in and the guy is saying "too deep". I don't think the words "too deep" and squats should ever be uttered in the same sentence. My personal opinion. I don't use bands, but his philosophies on band training "correcting any and all weaknesses" is bullcrap. Bands have they're place in correcting some weaknesses, but it only makes sense to me that they put a very unnatural tension on the body. PLUS being all wrapped up and suited... When I was 13, my strength coach for football was teaching us how to lift with proper form, which is what this guy should be doing. I don't even think 13 year old kids should be competing in PLing yet, they haven't even gone through puberty.

Detard
05-08-2010, 03:44 PM
Watch the very last lifter in this video. The same thing happens about 4:30 into the video too. Terrible coaching


OohXfScKSgQ

EDIT: And damn that would hurt like hell too!

Brian Hopper
05-08-2010, 09:21 PM
Did I hear "too deep"???

No, I only liked him because of the sunglasses he had on!!!!!!

BigBatz
05-10-2010, 12:17 PM
Did I hear "too deep"???

I thought I heard that too.

n.die_beast
05-10-2010, 12:53 PM
I couldn't bear to watch anymore of that video. I am not a pro by any means. But it hurts me to see guys being trained like that. It hurts me even more to think that they would go on to teach others to train like that.

robchris
05-10-2010, 06:22 PM
IMO the guy is misinformed at best... At worst hes doing these kids a huge dis-service by not teaching the fundamentals of strength training and exposing them to potential injury.

At any rate, I hope they find someone to intervene and teach these yougsters the right way to train...

RC

Brian Hopper
05-11-2010, 07:46 AM
Watch the very last lifter in this video. The same thing happens about 4:30 into the video too. Terrible coaching


OohXfScKSgQ

EDIT: And damn that would hurt like hell too!

WTF!!!!

Brian Hopper
05-11-2010, 07:52 AM
Did I hear "too deep"???

HAHA, when I watched it I didn't have the volume turned on because I was in bed with my family so I wasn't sure what you meant. So I just watched it again and YES, someone did say "too deep" lol!!!!!!!!!! I feel so bad for those kids.

sflarrisey
05-16-2010, 08:31 PM
My name is Shay Larrisey and I am responding to the numerous post concerning Jim Parrish and his Joe Average Strength System. I have trained with Jim off and on for the past 6 yrs in that time I have been ranked as high a 5th at 165 and I think 10th at 181. I have done 780 squat, bench 500 and deadlifted 500.
Jim has trained the following people using his system: Joe Mazza, Dick Crane 220 905 sq and 675 bench, Chris Reidy (275) elite, and Dan Petrillo for a few months and others.
The main issues on the site pertain to the following issues: (1) the training system, (2) The young men (age 15-17 yrs old) wearing gear (3) The video of the young menís first or second meet.
(1) The previous post by Matt is pretty dead on. Itís a progressive system that revolves around band and Free weight. The kids do squat high to get used to the weight and tension of the bands and then try in get depth with their last few reps. The bench and the deadlift follow the same premise. A detailed log is kept to keep track of their progress.

(2) Yes, they wear single ply Titan gear and knee wraps. One post cited one of the kids are going to get hurt or die oh really just like that guy that almost died under the watchful eye of the Head strength coach at USC that felt a suicide grip is the way to bench or some knuckle head who feels that squatting on a smith machine is the correct way to squat. The kids are watched, they provide feedback concerning their training. Mazza, Chris (physical therapist) Jim or I provide guidance to the kids, watch the videos.
a. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5rbaXF5eWI
b. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9dj-KZR7QI

(3) Everyone is citing the meet video, guys are even watching in bed is that legal watching videos of young teen in bed. The fact is the kids have made tremendous progress. The kid that fell just squatted 325, Zach if he stops being nervous will squat 500 next meet and hit 250 in the bench and Tom who lifted raw by far is the most talented lifter of them all. So they fall, they get back up, not every lift is not going to be perfect, why cause they are pushing themselves.

It is easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticize, itís hard to stand up and say what needs to be said. I have no issue with people who criticize but they need to do research, analyze and then post intelligently. Watch this past weekendís meet video and see the progress the kids are making. These kids could say screw it I want to do this or that but no they show up and train and their progress is seen in their meet videos and in their other athletic endeavors.
Shay Larrisey PMP, MPA, CFCM (candidate)

chris mason
05-16-2010, 08:42 PM
The training and coaching in the video is CRAP. There is nothing more to be said.

I suppose it is possible those videos are misrepresentations of what he normally does, but NOTHING in those videos is good.

Oh, and the fact the kids may be progressing is not a testimonial for the system. Almost ANY kind of resistance training will increase strength up to a certain point.

Hazerboy
05-16-2010, 09:09 PM
My name is Shay Larrisey and I am responding to the numerous post concerning Jim Parrish

Welcome to the boards Shay.

Thats great that you guys have made progress, but I'm wondering what advantage your crew sees in training very, very new kids in gear, even if it is just single ply? How would you say this is more beneficial for their progress than getting a strong raw base?

Cmanuel
05-16-2010, 09:23 PM
Oh, and the fact the kids may be progressing is not a testimonial for the system. Almost ANY kind of resistance training will increase strength up to a certain point.

Yeah, especially for relatively untrained kids like in the videos.

Brian Hopper
05-16-2010, 10:29 PM
Blah...Blah...Blah, like Chris brought up earlier, the coaching and training are CRAP in those videos. For starters he can't even get the rack heights correct for those kids....IMO, that's bad coaching :)

You should know that beginning lifters are going to make gains, it doesn't matter how bad there coaching is or what program they are using. But if they keep training with him, eventually they are going to get hurt with there lack of technique and his lack of knowledge.

How are we jumping on the bandwagon? We watched the videos, there is nothing good you can say. I think alot of lifters here will agree with me when I say that I feel really sorry for those kids. They seem to have a passion and interest in this sport and they are getting taught nothing.

By the way, I have to watch those videos in the morning since I'm already in bed. I didn't think you can get into trouble for watching kids training to get stronger and trying to improve while getting coached by an idiot...... :confused:

Travis Bell
05-17-2010, 05:15 AM
My name is Shay Larrisey and I am responding to the numerous post concerning Jim Parrish and his Joe Average Strength System. I have trained with Jim off and on for the past 6 yrs in that time I have been ranked as high a 5th at 165 and I think 10th at 181. I have done 780 squat, bench 500 and deadlifted 500.
Jim has trained the following people using his system: Joe Mazza, Dick Crane 220 905 sq and 675 bench, Chris Reidy (275) elite, and Dan Petrillo for a few months and others.
The main issues on the site pertain to the following issues: (1) the training system, (2) The young men (age 15-17 yrs old) wearing gear (3) The video of the young menís first or second meet.
(1) The previous post by Matt is pretty dead on. Itís a progressive system that revolves around band and Free weight. The kids do squat high to get used to the weight and tension of the bands and then try in get depth with their last few reps. The bench and the deadlift follow the same premise. A detailed log is kept to keep track of their progress.

Shay, this is still a very imbalanced program for such young athletes. If a grown person wanted to train like this, that's their own choice, however the problem most are seeing with this kind of training is that these kids do not know any better. Yet they are led to believe this is the best possible way to train

Is there a specific reason why Jim berates his kids like that? I'm a professional strength and conditioning coach and I have never found a need to talk to people like that.


(2) Yes, they wear single ply Titan gear and knee wraps. One post cited one of the kids are going to get hurt or die oh really just like that guy that almost died under the watchful eye of the Head strength coach at USC that felt a suicide grip is the way to bench or some knuckle head who feels that squatting on a smith machine is the correct way to squat. The kids are watched, they provide feedback concerning their training. Mazza, Chris (physical therapist) Jim or I provide guidance to the kids, watch the videos.
a. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5rbaXF5eWI
b. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9dj-KZR7QI


I would agree, they are probably not going to die lol. And yes, I'd also agree squatting like this is slightly better than squatting on a smith. However it's still not an ideal way to train young athletes. Even under guidance, kids this young don't need to be in gear all the time. This goes back to the core of Parrish's program that most feel is flawed. Band tension is fine, but he is using far too much band tension. I'm sure you've heard of the law of diminishing returns, that's what the problem is here.


(3) Everyone is citing the meet video, guys are even watching in bed is that legal watching videos of young teen in bed. The fact is the kids have made tremendous progress. The kid that fell just squatted 325, Zach if he stops being nervous will squat 500 next meet and hit 250 in the bench and Tom who lifted raw by far is the most talented lifter of them all. So they fall, they get back up, not every lift is not going to be perfect, why cause they are pushing themselves.

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but this part of your post comes across as "shoulda coulda woulda"

Making a pedophile joke? Really? That's kinda lame....

Like Chris already said, the fact that they are making some sort of gains has nothing to do with the quality of Joe Average strength training, rather it's because they are young and any sort of training is going to yield some sort of return.


It is easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticize, itís hard to stand up and say what needs to be said. I have no issue with people who criticize but they need to do research, analyze and then post intelligently. Watch this past weekendís meet video and see the progress the kids are making. These kids could say screw it I want to do this or that but no they show up and train and their progress is seen in their meet videos and in their other athletic endeavors.
Shay Larrisey PMP, MPA, CFCM (candidate)


You have several posts in here that describe why people don't like the program. I'm sorry you took it so offensively, but Shay this type of training is pretty poor and people are just calling it like they see it.

Magilla
05-17-2010, 10:32 AM
Travis, very well put.

Maybe I am old fashion in my thinking, but I feel these kids need to to develop the raw strength and correct lifting habits 1st, then jump into the gear. I won't even touch the berating the kids. That is plain wrong.

sflarrisey
05-17-2010, 02:55 PM
I first want to thank everyone for taking their time to respond to Joe Average Powerlifting thread, If I offended anyone with my attempt at humor, I certainly meant no harm. Is Jim sometimes hard on the kids, yes he is, Jim can be hard to deal with at times,which I can attest to, that is why we have trained off and on for six yrs. Should kids be babied no, I worked at a Miltary Boot camp while in Grad School for two years and saw many kids excel under structure and discipline. On the flip side should they be treated as young man who are cappable of making thier own decisions and respected, yes and they are. Sometimes when you have six or seven kids in a room they lose focus and their attention needs to be "eyes on me"

I would challenge anyone to learn the system,use the system and provide their feed back, negative or positive of what they learned. I am open to that and open to learning from everyone that I can concerning different training systems and ideas. Many projects fail because of assumptions that are not proven to be fact. If your assuming something about this system, prove it by trying it.

Law of dimishing returns or the benefit to cost ratio: I have not seen it within this as much as people suspect. I have not taken a step back or has Mazza. However, we do see this as a risk to progress and we monitor closely our bar speed and Central Nervous System demands.

It kind of hypocritical in this respects: Mazza recieves tons of praise and is regarded as one of the top benchers in the world shirted 705 @ 165 and in time will own the raw record 165 with a 487 or more bench in the next few months, a record that has stood for almost 30 yrs. Joe what kind of system did you use to bench this kind of weight?

There are many kids who wear gear, even canvas gear. is n't this why the various feds have teenage weight classes and records. Hell some kids have achieved elite status as teenagers in different weight classes.
Tom Hardnat (spelling): lifted raw and set 4 IPA records body weight 123, check out the video.

I am not trying to win an arguement or change people minds. I have a lot respect for powerlifters and the sacrifices we make to obtain achievement that few can appreciate. I would like people to understand that their is other ways to train and if someone does not agree with it does not make it wrong,it is just a different avenue of approach.

Shay Larrisey PMP, MPA CFCM (Candidate)

Clover
05-17-2010, 03:55 PM
Is putting all your education after your name part of the system?

joey54
05-17-2010, 06:53 PM
I am not touching anything else with this topic, but good to see you join the board Shay. Would be great if you started a journal so if people are interested in how you train, they can follow it.

StLRPh
05-17-2010, 07:04 PM
I would challenge anyone to learn the system,use the system and provide their feed back, negative or positive of what they learned. I am open to that and open to learning from everyone that I can concerning different training systems and ideas. Many projects fail because of assumptions that are not proven to be fact. If your assuming something about this system, prove it by trying it.

Can you provide an overview/template? I looked through the website, albeit briefly, and had a real hard time following it.

Travis Bell
05-18-2010, 11:05 AM
Why is it assumed it's bashing when there is an intelligent discussion going on here? If you like it, fine, but people are free to have their opinion.

A 15yo raw benching 315 for 6 reps? That'd be a video worth seeing

dammstrate
05-18-2010, 11:46 AM
A person doesn't have to have direct experience with something to know if it appears beneficial or not.
I am familiar enough with the concept of "hot" to know not to touch a glowing red stove or I will get burnt,
without actually touching it.

When I started powerlifting 6 years ago and was a noob looking for how to get started, I tried to engage with this guy. Much back and forth on email trying to understand the program and progression. I have 2 engineering degrees and I was not able to determine or document any actual "system", only that it was
a bunch of random rotating band tensions and ultra tight gear. After a month of trying back and forth, just had to give it up and quit trying. Fortunately I got hooked up with Brent Mikesell, and still use his basic
template for every training cycle with so far pretty good results.

Notwithstanding the above, the vid shows the guy basically being abusive to and with a bunch of HS
kids. Can't believe parents would let their kids get involved with a person of this demeanor, independent
of his training philosophy. What an ass.

vdizenzo
05-18-2010, 01:07 PM
He is 15 years old and right now he is around 181lbs. He just benched 315lbs for 6 reps. The system works.

I am very skeptical. I very much look forward to seeing a video.

Brian Hopper
05-18-2010, 01:54 PM
I am very skeptical. I very much look forward to seeing a video.

Same here!!!

chris mason
05-18-2010, 02:17 PM
Hmmm, not sure what to say about that video...


Here is what I will say, perhaps the guy's program works for the bench, but what I saw in those videos of him having his kids squat was ******ED.

Cmanuel
05-18-2010, 02:18 PM
The 15 y/o is strong, i will give you that, but come on... thats not 310 for 6 legit reps....you know this!!

IronChefKenichi
05-18-2010, 02:41 PM
Man those squat vids are something else, It will be really sad when one of those kids get seriously hurt

icedutah
05-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Nice try though. He almost got 1 rep there.

Learning2Lift
05-18-2010, 03:02 PM
Is part of his "system" for the spotter to keep his hands on the bar the whole time and not come all the way down? If it is then they are executing it perfectly in the video.

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, everyone in here will be the first to agree there is more than one way to get any job done. However, I find it hard to believe treating the kids the way he does is really the way to do anything. The only thing people are looking for is a logical explanation as to why they are being trained this way and a general abstract as to how the "system" is put together which has yet to be provided. Injury is part of any sport, but that doesn't excuse bad coaching.

Travis Bell
05-18-2010, 03:19 PM
Hmm well I can't see the video since you made it "private" now, however in the picture for the vid, I see some elbow wraps as well. Not quite raw

Why take the vid down though?

AdamBAG
05-18-2010, 03:46 PM
The focus here really isn't "the system" as I honestly have no idea what it is. The criticism really comes down to using bad form and coaching lifters, especially young ones, to use bad form. That's the gist of the complaints.

cpa5oh
05-18-2010, 04:08 PM
Seeing that kid land on his knees twice was something else. Wonder what the coaching was in between attempts. And I wonder if his parents saw that.

rinse
05-18-2010, 04:08 PM
Hmm well I can't see the video since you made it "private" now, however in the picture for the vid, I see some elbow wraps as well. Not quite raw

Why take the vid down though?

It was "assisted reps" all the way from the start also. Not one rep by himself.

Learning2Lift
05-18-2010, 04:29 PM
The focus here really isn't "the system" as I honestly have no idea what it is. The criticism really comes down to using bad form and coaching lifters, especially young ones, to use bad form. That's the gist of the complaints.

Bad form and coaching to use bad form is what I was referring to when asking for a reason or an explanation of the "system". I don't understand it either.

Cmanuel
05-18-2010, 04:31 PM
It was "assisted reps" all the way from the start also. Not one rep by himself.

Ass off the bench, assisted reps, not touching chest.... it was pretty poor.

robchris
05-18-2010, 06:30 PM
Couldnt see the vid... Why take it down? Hmmm, sounds suspect.

vdizenzo
05-18-2010, 06:47 PM
I hate to jump on the bandwagon, but everytime I hear so and so can do this I become very skeptical. I am told on a regular basis how so and so's uncle, cousin, brother, training partner, etc. can bench x for x. Shocker its always crap. To my surprise the vid I was supposed to see is already private.

Anyway, this is a place to get stronger. We all have opinions and have expressed them. Hopefully we have all learned something and can move on.

Brian Hopper
05-18-2010, 08:10 PM
:scratch: I wonder why he took it down :scratch:

Barbaccio
05-19-2010, 05:33 AM
I would challenge anyone to learn the system,use the system and provide their feed back, negative or positive of what they learned. I am open to that and open to learning from everyone that I can concerning different training systems and ideas. Many projects fail because of assumptions that are not proven to be fact. If your assuming something about this system, prove it by trying it.

Challenging someone to use this system is like challenging someone to wrestle a bear. Open to learning doesn't mean you can't be smart enough to know when something's stupid. I don't need to wrestle with the bear to prove it will tear my arm off. There have already been enough people attacked by bears. Just like enough people have seen what this system is about and have spoken their part on it. Every system works for someone, somewhere, at some time. That doesn't mean it's good, correct, or will ever work again.

I was at the last meet this man was at in Paulsboro, NJ. I didn't find his kids to be particularly spectacular lifters but I they did work hard. I did find that whole crew to be a bit "clickish" and somewhat cocky. I don't knwo the man personally but from what I heard at the meet I didn't see him treating the kids badly. The video is a different story.

Vince148
05-31-2010, 09:00 AM
I have an interest in this thread because 1) I had researched the JA sytem several years back and 2) I have trained young boys at a local juvenile detention center.

The advantage of the JA system to me, is its simplicity. It is much like the way I trained for competition back in the 70s. Just hard simple workouts. Nothing fancy. I started to dabble a little with JA, but abandoned most of it for WSB techniques. If I use any JA now, it's primarily the "tri" workouts that utilize bands and high boards.

As far as training teens is concerned. Teen lifting is a pet peeve of mine. (Maybe I should write an article for Powerlifting USA). I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ANY TEEN SHOULD BE COMPETING IN GEAR UNLESS THEY HAVE AT LEAST A CLASS 1 TOTAL OR ABOVE. Otherwise, they should be competing RAW.

As I said, I have trained young boys ranging from 13-18 at a local facility. I trained them 3 days a week and had only an hour for each session. I would have anywhere from 4-12 boys per session. Training was basically broken down to one main lift per session. Squatting was by far the most difficult for the boys to learn. I basically trained them using a 5/3/1 type format, although it was really popularized at that point yet. I did incorporate some band training, but nothing more than minis or monster minis. This was done to develop speed and to teach them how to push through sticking points. Free squats only. No box squats. Bench training was full range with some high board work. Bands were used for speed work on a deload week only. Deadlift training was basically just deadlifting. We changed it up once in a while by doing heavy concentric good mornings off pins in a rack or rack pulls. Accessory work was done after each main lift. Nothing fancy. Triceps extensions, lat pulls, rows, GHRs, walking lunges.

For competition, the boys competed RAW. I placed them in age divisions to give them a better chance to receive trophies and set records. If you've ever dealt with boys coming from abusive homes or living in the streets, you'll know why. Most of these boys have little to none self esteem or self worth. For them, getting a trophy or setting a record is a BIG DEAL and I can attest to the feeling of accomplishment that they received from competing in this manner. It was a true blessing to see their life and personality transformed because they went into the program benching 135 and came out benching 185 in about 6-8 weeks of training.

As I stated earlier, no novice lifter should be competing in gear. I have judged HS meets and watched in disbelief as kids would try to use their gear. Most of them use gear that is not even fitted properly, let alone even get anything out of it. I was happy to see that here in Michigan, they changed the rule that some meets would be raw only. Another case in point. I was attending a meet in SC back in April. A father had apparently been training his 13-14 year old son. He was wearing a phenom bench shirt to bench 155 POUNDS. This is absolutely ridiculous!

In closing, let me summarize. I think the JA system has some good points. I just don't think it is for the novice and beginner lifters. Young lifters need to be build base strength and should be competing raw. Bands should be used as a supplement to their training, not as a mainstay.

Vince Scelfo
600 330-418 1320 @ 148/52
AAPF tested