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texron
06-14-2010, 08:50 AM
Hey guys,
My 14 year old son started football conditioning camp today. He's been lifting with me in our garage the last 3 months and made good progress. As of late he has started to really bend at the waist while doing squats. I wish I was that flexible. His chest almost hits his knees:omg: I backed off the weight about 25lbs down to 225 and his form is better. Thing is he keeps doing it on ANY weight over 225, even after a month. Today his coach saw it and made him go all the way down to 135# (over-react) His deadlift is pretty solid at 275# (his weight is 190). What do you all think is causing the bend..Abs?
Thanks guys

icedutah
06-14-2010, 09:09 AM
Really hard to tell unless we see a pic or video. The bar could be too low on the back. His grip could be too wide. Keep his head looking up. weak abs. Weak lower and or upper back.

Can be many things.

texron
06-14-2010, 09:26 AM
Really hard to tell unless we see a pic or video. The bar could be too low on the back. His grip could be too wide. Keep his head looking up. weak abs. Weak lower and or upper back.

Can be many things.

I'll try to get a vid and post, he looks slightly up, grip is good, bar is not too low, actually it's too high for my liking. I'm guessing Abs. They blasted his Abs in camp today and I'll start in on him this week as well. He is going to deadlift with me on Fridays since the school says deadlifts are a no-no for football. he doesn't need deadlifts anyway..right?:moon:

AdamBAG
06-14-2010, 10:22 AM
It's not unsual for people to lean if they need hamstring and glute work. When the weight gets heavier they try to get the weight on their quads. GHRs might help as well as GMs.

If he is leaning that much then there are likely some form issues that need to be worked out. A video would be best. A few new sets of eyes may see something that you don't. If he is fairly tall for his weight then a low bar position will make him lean. Sometimes a higher bar postion can help a lifter with a longer back relative to inseam (my build) stay more upright when they squat.

riptied1
06-14-2010, 10:22 AM
According to the Rippetoe methodolgy, looking up is a no-no because it places an unnatural stress on the spine. Also, if the bar is too high it may cause the lifter to bend forward if the core is weak. I'll leave a couple links reaffirming my statements so you know it's not unfounded. The vid will really allow the veterans here help you and your son out. Send Sensei a message if you can; he's pretty much the Rembrandt of squatting and has saved many backs on this forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq8CWv8UPAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kawBY5p29fQ

*edit... forgot to mention that if you really want to learn the mechanics of squats and deadlifts I'd recommend purchasing Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe...a squatters bible

riptied1
06-14-2010, 10:31 AM
It's not unsual for people to lean if they need hamstring and glute work. When the weight gets heavier they try to get the weight on their quads. GHRs might help as well as GMs.

If he is leaning that much then there are likely some form issues that need to be worked out. A video would be best. A few new sets of eyes may see something that you don't. If he is fairly tall for his weight then a low bar position will make him lean. Sometimes a higher bar postion can help a lifter with a longer back relative to inseam (my build) stay more upright when they squat.

respectfully, Adam, I don't understand why a lower bar position would cause someone to lean forward more than a higher one. Dont you think the fulcrum changes when you move the weight further from the center?

AdamBAG
06-14-2010, 10:40 AM
respectfully, Adam, I don't understand why a lower bar position would cause someone to lean forward more than a higher one. Dont you think the fulcrum changes when you move the weight further from the center?

I understand what you are saying. I base my explanation purely on what I've seen in the gym. Moving the bar higher does not necessarily move the bar farther away from the center. If you have a longer back (like I do) then the higher bar position puts the bar directly over the hips. If I have the bar lower I have to lean forward to keep the bar over the hips. For a guy with a short torso it may be the exact opposite. The width of the squat stance can matter too. Normally you see much more lean with a close stance than a wide stance. So without seeing a video there is no way to definitely say that the original poster should move the bar lower to correct the torso lean.

Sean S
06-14-2010, 10:50 AM
I understand what you are saying. I base my explanation purely on what I've seen in the gym. Moving the bar higher does not necessarily move the bar farther away from the center. If you have a longer back (like I do) then the higher bar position puts the bar directly over the hips. If I have the bar lower I have to lean forward to keep the bar over the hips. For a guy with a short torso it may be the exact opposite. The width of the squat stance can matter too. Normally you see much more lean with a close stance than a wide stance. So without seeing a video there is no way to definitely say that the original poster should move the bar lower to correct the torso lean.

Adam is right about more forward lean with a low bar placement. The bar must stay centered over the feet no matter where your hips are or whether you use a wide or close stance. If not, you will literally fall over (forward or backward). With a lower bar placement, you shorten the lever arm of the back. In order to keep the bar centered over the feet with a shorter lever arm you have to lean forward more. If you have longer legs and a short torso and use a close stance, you will have a big forward lean. How much forward lean is optimal depends on the peron's proportions and relative strengths and weaknesses. Whether or not you use equipment also influences how much forward lean is optimal.
For the OP: video is needed since we don't really know if he has a big forward lean or if he is actually collapsing and rounding over. A big forward can be corrected (if it even needs to be) with technique adjustments while rounding is often more related to strength, or lack thereof, in the midsection.

texron
06-14-2010, 12:29 PM
Adam is right about more forward lean with a low bar placement. The bar must stay centered over the feet no matter where your hips are or whether you use a wide or close stance. If not, you will literally fall over (forward or backward). With a lower bar placement, you shorten the lever arm of the back. In order to keep the bar centered over the feet with a shorter lever arm you have to lean forward more. If you have longer legs and a short torso and use a close stance, you will have a big forward lean. How much forward lean is optimal depends on the peron's proportions and relative strengths and weaknesses. Whether or not you use equipment also influences how much forward lean is optimal.
For the OP: video is needed since we don't really know if he has a big forward lean or if he is actually collapsing and rounding over. A big forward can be corrected (if it even needs to be) with technique adjustments while rounding is often more related to strength, or lack thereof, in the midsection.


He is not rounding at all, I have Rips books, I'll only say I'm not a huge fan and leave it at that. You sort of hit the nail on the head, I'm not sure it needs to be corrected that much, I've seen plenty of world class lifters have close to the same "problem" I've been lifting for 20+ years and I have the same problem only to a lesser degree than my son. really the only reason I'm worried is his football coach. I don't think it's doing my son much good to be working out with 135 when he normally works out with 200+. Vids won't be until Friday, his depth is amazing, well below parallel, his pinkie is on the inside of the rings head SLIGHTY back pushes his knees apart. You're right, new eyes sure could help, but it looks good to these old eyes.

tnathletics2b
06-14-2010, 12:37 PM
It's not unsual for people to lean if they need hamstring and glute work. When the weight gets heavier they try to get the weight on their quads. GHRs might help as well as GMs.


+1

My brother had AWFUL hamstring strength and would almost fall down face forward when doing squats. Strengthened his hammy's and he stopped doing it.

AdamBAG
06-14-2010, 12:54 PM
Glad you are getting a video. That will help the most. He might be completely fine, but it can't hurt to get some "video coaching."

texron
06-14-2010, 01:15 PM
Glad you are getting a video. That will help the most. He might be completely fine, but it can't hurt to get some "video coaching."

Hey Adam,
Just saw that you're at Bad Attitude. You guys still in Carollton? I'm up in Denton, I've thought of stopping by a zillion times. I've watched him squat for so long he may be all screwed up andI don't see it. I can't believe his coach won't let the kids deadlift.

AdamBAG
06-14-2010, 01:55 PM
Hey Adam,
Just saw that you're at Bad Attitude. You guys still in Carollton? I'm up in Denton, I've thought of stopping by a zillion times. I've watched him squat for so long he may be all screwed up andI don't see it. I can't believe his coach won't let the kids deadlift.

Yes, we sure are. Normally we squat/deadlift on Friday night and bench on Sunday morning.

If you are interested in coming out at some point I'm sure it can be arranged.

texron
06-14-2010, 02:37 PM
Yes, we sure are. Normally we squat/deadlift on Friday night and bench on Sunday morning.

If you are interested in coming out at some point I'm sure it can be arranged.

I'd like that, maybe in August when summer school is out. You do have room for old farts like me eh?

AdamBAG
06-14-2010, 02:59 PM
I'd like that, maybe in August when summer school is out. You do have room for old farts like me eh?

Sure thing man. Anybody that's into powerlifting is welcome. We've got raw lifters, single-ply, multiply, doesn't matter.

Check out our website www.badattitudegym.com and check the forum. That's the best way to set up a visit.