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View Full Version : Open ended question about speed/plyo/exposiveness



Dallen Hall
06-14-2010, 10:28 PM
Im training more seriously for hockey then ever before, and would like to improve on speed/quickness/and explosiveness, as these are all extremely important.
I train every second day, but was wondering if anyone could give me a base program that I could do on the days in between to improve. Maybe Travis?
I dont know what or how much I should do of cardio, but would like to do them on this day aswell.
Thanks so much everyone

slashkills
06-15-2010, 07:14 AM
The best weightlifting exercises for improving strength are squats and deadlifts. Im also starting to believe that the core must be trained well to get quicker. Outside of doing those you should be doing sprints and suicides for quickness. Plyometric excersises like box jumps are also very important for developing explosiveness.

I would look into Joe defranco's westside for skinny bastards routine. Its very simple to follow and it has days for ME,DE,RE and conditioning basically written out for you. If you dont follow that here are a few tips

-do conditioning on seperate days than your speed training. Sprints are very taxing so the need for conditioning will be pretty low if you set up your training correctly.
-box jumps/plyometrics before squats if you chose to do them on the same day. All explosive and speed training should come first in the workout so they can be performed to the best of your ability.

Dallen Hall
06-15-2010, 11:37 AM
The best weightlifting exercises for improving strength are squats and deadlifts. Im also starting to believe that the core must be trained well to get quicker. Outside of doing those you should be doing sprints and suicides for quickness. Plyometric excersises like box jumps are also very important for developing explosiveness.

I would look into Joe defranco's westside for skinny bastards routine. Its very simple to follow and it has days for ME,DE,RE and conditioning basically written out for you. If you dont follow that here are a few tips

-do conditioning on seperate days than your speed training. Sprints are very taxing so the need for conditioning will be pretty low if you set up your training correctly.
-box jumps/plyometrics before squats if you chose to do them on the same day. All explosive and speed training should come first in the workout so they can be performed to the best of your ability.

I already base a majority of my workouts around large compound exercises ie. deadlifts, squats, bench, military press, pullups.
so would you go
monday - workout
tuesday - sprints/plyo
wednesday -workout
thursday - conditioning
friday - workout
saturday - sprints/plyo

???

slashkills
06-16-2010, 09:49 AM
no that doesnt leave enough room for reovery. How specifically do you plan your workouts? do you have uppper and lower body days?

I would do something like

mon-bench/acc. work + sprints/plyos
tue-squat or dead + acc work
wed-off
thur-bench + sprints/plyos
fri-dead or squat(which ever you didnt do tue)
sat-conditioning
sun-off

sprints are a great way to up endurance so the need for extra conditioning work may not be needed. It may even hinder performance. I would consider dropping it all together or making one day for sprints and the second for conditioning. Plyos are very taxing as well. I would start slow and add in more conditiong untill you notice that your no longer making progress.

Tom Mutaffis
06-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I agree with Slashkills' advice.

Dallen - what type of commitments do you have outside of the gym? In some cases splitting your workouts into two smaller workouts on some days could make sense; specifically breaking out the plyo/sprint work from the weight training.

Dallen Hall
06-16-2010, 06:07 PM
no that doesnt leave enough room for reovery. How specifically do you plan your workouts? do you have uppper and lower body days?

I would do something like

mon-bench/acc. work + sprints/plyos
tue-squat or dead + acc work
wed-off
thur-bench + sprints/plyos
fri-dead or squat(which ever you didnt do tue)
sat-conditioning
sun-off

sprints are a great way to up endurance so the need for extra conditioning work may not be needed. It may even hinder performance. I would consider dropping it all together or making one day for sprints and the second for conditioning. Plyos are very taxing as well. I would start slow and add in more conditiong untill you notice that your no longer making progress.

My workouts right now are mostly full body, as I have found I have made better gains recently from switching from body part splits. Deadlift, squat and bench are all on different days.
What would you do for acc work with my bench and squats?
And what would you do for plyo exercises, I have a basis but I would just like a second opinion.
Thanks so much.

Dallen Hall
06-16-2010, 06:09 PM
I agree with Slashkills' advice.

Dallen - what type of commitments do you have outside of the gym? In some cases splitting your workouts into two smaller workouts on some days could make sense; specifically breaking out the plyo/sprint work from the weight training.

Agreeance from the great Tom Mutaffis really means alot, means that I'll be on the right track. lol

Currently I hold down a part time job, and have a couple ice times a week just to stay on my feet during the summer. School is just winding down so I will have more time to focus on my training.
I would almost prefer that somedays, maybe get a good PWM after my first one, and prepare for sprints.
So I would do workout before sprints/plyo?

slashkills
06-17-2010, 07:31 AM
My workouts right now are mostly full body, as I have found I have made better gains recently from switching from body part splits. Deadlift, squat and bench are all on different days.
What would you do for acc work with my bench and squats?
And what would you do for plyo exercises, I have a basis but I would just like a second opinion.
Thanks so much.

If i seen a sample of your routine for this past week i could help you out more with acc. work if you even need it. If your progressing right now leave it alone. For plyos you could do things like box jumps, seated box jumps, depth jumps, etc. Do a quick search on google or EFS and you'll find a ton of info on plyometrics.


Agreeance from the great Tom Mutaffis really means alot, means that I'll be on the right track. lol

Currently I hold down a part time job, and have a couple ice times a week just to stay on my feet during the summer. School is just winding down so I will have more time to focus on my training.
I would almost prefer that somedays, maybe get a good PWM after my first one, and prepare for sprints.
So I would do workout before sprints/plyo?

If your set on doing speed work on days you workout then do it before your workout since they are all full body days. You need to be close to 100% for sprints and plyos to make progress.

Tom Mutaffis
06-17-2010, 02:32 PM
Currently I hold down a part time job, and have a couple ice times a week just to stay on my feet during the summer. School is just winding down so I will have more time to focus on my training.
I would almost prefer that somedays, maybe get a good PWM after my first one, and prepare for sprints.
So I would do workout before sprints/plyo?

As Slashkills mentioned I would recomend doing your speed/plyo work before weight training, but what I had in mind was actually splitting the two into seperate sessions.

Here is an example of what the template might look like:

Monday:
Morning - Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Pressing + Accessory Work)

Tuesday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / Deadlift + Accessory Work)

Wednesday:
Rest

Thursday:
Morning - Plyos or Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Back + Accessory Work)

Friday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / Squat + Accessory Work)

Saturday:
Morning - Conditioning & Plyos

Sunday:
Rest

Personally I would not squat and deadlift in the same week and would have one lower body weight training session per week, alternating between the two movements. This would also allow you to add another conditioning or sprinting day as well - where you could perhaps work with some variations or different movements such as sled drags or vehicle push.

seK
06-17-2010, 03:37 PM
All good advice.

What are you doing in terms of Plyo's?

Dallen Hall
06-17-2010, 07:17 PM
As Slashkills mentioned I would recomend doing your speed/plyo work before weight training, but what I had in mind was actually splitting the two into seperate sessions.

Here is an example of what the template might look like:

Monday:
Morning - Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Pressing + Accessory Work)

Tuesday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / Deadlift + Accessory Work)

Wednesday:
Rest

Thursday:
Morning - Plyos or Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Back + Accessory Work)

Friday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / Squat + Accessory Work)

Saturday:
Morning - Conditioning & Plyos

Sunday:
Rest

Personally I would not squat and deadlift in the same week and would have one lower body weight training session per week, alternating between the two movements. This would also allow you to add another conditioning or sprinting day as well - where you could perhaps work with some variations or different movements such as sled drags or vehicle push.

Wow this is all very helpful, both slashkills and and Tom.
I will definately be switching my routine up to look something very similar to this. I actually really like how this is set up, leaves time to recover but still two days of upper and lower. Saturday mornings might be my car pushes in the big ol arena parking lot.
Thanks so much for you help guys.ill be incorperating all of this next week,
Anything else I should know before i begin?
Maybe some acc work for my dead squat days as im running short on ideas

Travis Bell
06-18-2010, 05:27 AM
Tom, why would you not squat and deadlift in the same week?

Tom Mutaffis
06-18-2010, 12:56 PM
Tom, why would you not squat and deadlift in the same week?

I would not recommend performing high intensity squats and deadlifts in the same week because it can lead to recovery problems or lack of progress. If you wanted to perform one as a primary movement and one as a secondary movement (DE/ME split) then it would not be a problem.

Here is a quote that addresses the same topic:

"...most beginner/intermediate athletes couldn't recover from two lower body days a week in conjunction with their running and conditioning work. Their legs would never fully recover and it would take away from their speed and conditioning workouts. One day has worked out much better for many of my athletes." - Joe Defranco

Travis Bell
06-18-2010, 03:16 PM
I would not recommend performing high intensity squats and deadlifts in the same week because it can lead to recovery problems or lack of progress. If you wanted to perform one as a primary movement and one as a secondary movement (DE/ME split) then it would not be a problem.

Here is a quote that addresses the same topic:

"...most beginner/intermediate athletes couldn't recover from two lower body days a week in conjunction with their running and conditioning work. Their legs would never fully recover and it would take away from their speed and conditioning workouts. One day has worked out much better for many of my athletes." - Joe Defranco

I see.

Personally this is one of the areas where I disagree with Joe. Joe's normal setup includes a Repeated effort day and a Max effort day. He doesn't regularly include dynamic work for his younger athletes.

If one was to perform RE and ME in the same week, recovery could become an issue to think about. However if one day is dynamic effort and the second is ME then there really is no issue at all. Almost all of my athletes squat twice a week and deadlift once a week. You just have to vary the specific movements and the weight used.

When they deadlift, it's after squatting. We don't deadlift on a single day all by itself as it really doesn't serve any purpose.

Conditioning work is done once a week (high intensity work at least, milder conditioning done with sled work is done twice other days)

If this stuff is set up correctly, it really doesn't conflict with recovery at all. The first two weeks are usually a little tough, but they acclimate to it suprisingly quick and then make some pretty outstanding progress.

Off season training needs to be focused on strength development. I don't include much running at all. Variations of sprint work is done, but actual sprinting on a track or what have you isn't normal. They do more than enough of that come season time. If they get stronger and the right reflexes are trained, their speed is always improved.

Sprints are a tester, not a builder. Same as if I was to bench a heavy single, straight weight, comp grip, every week. I wouldn't go anywhere fast.

So to improve sprint speed, we use variations that allow the athlete to improve in specific areas (Prowler, sled drag variations, speed squats, speed pulls, reverse hyper, glute ham raise.....)

This is a shortened version (albeit a long post) of the core stuff I don't like in Joe's program for highschool athletes. Keep in mind, what he puts out as pre written programs is different than what he does in the gym as well.

Tom Mutaffis
06-19-2010, 02:03 AM
I see.

Personally this is one of the areas where I disagree with Joe. Joe's normal setup includes a Repeated effort day and a Max effort day. He doesn't regularly include dynamic work for his younger athletes.

If one was to perform RE and ME in the same week, recovery could become an issue to think about. However if one day is dynamic effort and the second is ME then there really is no issue at all. Almost all of my athletes squat twice a week and deadlift once a week. You just have to vary the specific movements and the weight used.

When they deadlift, it's after squatting. We don't deadlift on a single day all by itself as it really doesn't serve any purpose.

Conditioning work is done once a week (high intensity work at least, milder conditioning done with sled work is done twice other days)

If this stuff is set up correctly, it really doesn't conflict with recovery at all. The first two weeks are usually a little tough, but they acclimate to it suprisingly quick and then make some pretty outstanding progress.

Off season training needs to be focused on strength development. I don't include much running at all. Variations of sprint work is done, but actual sprinting on a track or what have you isn't normal. They do more than enough of that come season time. If they get stronger and the right reflexes are trained, their speed is always improved.

Sprints are a tester, not a builder. Same as if I was to bench a heavy single, straight weight, comp grip, every week. I wouldn't go anywhere fast.

So to improve sprint speed, we use variations that allow the athlete to improve in specific areas (Prowler, sled drag variations, speed squats, speed pulls, reverse hyper, glute ham raise.....)

This is a shortened version (albeit a long post) of the core stuff I don't like in Joe's program for highschool athletes. Keep in mind, what he puts out as pre written programs is different than what he does in the gym as well.

I agree that ME/DE is the way to go and ME/RE could be problematic. It also makes sense to deadlift after squatting since as you mentioned deadlifts are not that important for most athletes; my comment on deadlifting and squatting in the same week was referring to each of the movements being an ME movement on their own training day.

As you mentioned a lot of the GPP work can be great for building speed (prowler, sled), and I believe that the sprint work is not just good for technique/testing but is also good for improving conditioning.

Maybe we can put our minds together and the next WBB program can be something sports-specific intended for young athletes?

Tom Mutaffis
06-19-2010, 02:07 AM
Wow this is all very helpful, both slashkills and and Tom.
I will definately be switching my routine up to look something very similar to this. I actually really like how this is set up, leaves time to recover but still two days of upper and lower. Saturday mornings might be my car pushes in the big ol arena parking lot.
Thanks so much for you help guys.ill be incorperating all of this next week,
Anything else I should know before i begin?
Maybe some acc work for my dead squat days as im running short on ideas

Here is a finalized program that I would recommend; the example above was just demonstrating how split sessions can be used. As Travis and I have discussed above it is not usually beneficial for an athlete to dedicate a workout to the deadlift; you would be better off splitting your squat workouts into ME/DE (Westside) and incorporating deadlifts as a secondary movement.

Dallen Hall's Program:

Monday:
Morning - Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Pressing + Accessory Work)

Tuesday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / ME Squat + RE/DE Deadlift)

Wednesday:
Rest

Thursday:
Morning - Plyometrics
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Back + Accessory Work)

Friday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / DE Squat + Accessory Work)

Saturday:
Morning - GPP/Conditioning (Car Push, Sled Drag, Etc.)

Sunday:
Rest

Good luck with the program! Keep us posted on your results.

Travis Bell
06-19-2010, 06:54 AM
I hear what you're saying Tom (in regards to sprints) I would certainly agree, they are great for conditioning, I just swing away from them in the off season because when these kids are in season, their legs take a 2hr beating every day. They need a bit of a break, but still be able to train their speed


Might have mis-spoken on the deadlifts or typed it wrong, what I meant by it serving no purpose, was that having it's own day serves no purpose (so I still agree with you) because they work almost the same muscle groups as squats do, so it just makes sense to continue training those muscles on the same day

Deadlifts (in my opinion) are extremely beneficial to athletes

I think what you wrote up is a good solid program. The rest is up to the athlete!

Good discussion

Dallen Hall
06-19-2010, 01:00 PM
Here is a finalized program that I would recommend; the example above was just demonstrating how split sessions can be used. As Travis and I have discussed above it is not usually beneficial for an athlete to dedicate a workout to the deadlift; you would be better off splitting your squat workouts into ME/DE (Westside) and incorporating deadlifts as a secondary movement.

Dallen Hall's Program:

Monday:
Morning - Sprints
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Pressing + Accessory Work)

Tuesday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / ME Squat + RE/DE Deadlift)

Wednesday:
Rest

Thursday:
Morning - Plyometrics
Afternoon - Weight Training (Upper Body / Back + Accessory Work)

Friday:
Afternoon - Weight Training (Lower Body / DE Squat + Accessory Work)

Saturday:
Morning - GPP/Conditioning (Car Push, Sled Drag, Etc.)

Sunday:
Rest

Good luck with the program! Keep us posted on your results.

Thanks so much for the help Tom, as well as Travis. I have learned alot just from reading your posts.
This is an extremely well put together program, thank you for this very much.
Ill be starting Monday morning after taking a few days off to deload and reload.
I just have one question. Other than rows. what are a few other good exercises for my upperbody/back day?

slashkills
06-21-2010, 08:41 AM
you could do pull ups/chin ups, shrugs, DB powercleans, and face pulls