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Phenom
06-16-2010, 11:08 AM
Any opinions? My brother was telling me about it. After some reading it seems like it could be pretty advantageous. Anyone drink it regularly?

Tom Mutaffis
06-16-2010, 11:35 AM
Any opinions? My brother was telling me about it. After some reading it seems like it could be pretty advantageous. Anyone drink it regularly?

A friend of mine drinks it pretty regularly and I have tried it. Raw milk tastes like a desert and seems to be a good tool for someone who is looking to put on mass.

Just be sure to purchase the milk from a reputable farmer and to store it properly since it is not pasturized.

mike mcgee
06-16-2010, 11:56 AM
Phenom, if you can find it, drink it. All the researching I have done on the web says it is superior to "pasteurized" milk because the pasteurization process destroys some of the milk's health benefits. I don't know if this is true. Raw milk however is very hard to find and many states have laws against its sale. One way to get it is through a cow-share program. A cow share program is where a consumer pays a farmer a fee for boarding their cow, (or share of a cow), caring for the cow and milking the cow. The cow share owner then obtains (but does not purchase) the milk from his own cow.

Personally, I'll stick with what I can buy at the grocery store. If you are able to get it, definitely take Tom's advice.

Tom Mutaffis
06-16-2010, 12:04 PM
My friend who lives in Florida found a group that purchases the raw milk, this makes it worthwhile for the farmer since he can deal in volume (25+ gallons).

In some states it is considered an acceptable pet food - but it is unlikely that you will ever see raw milk in a food store.

Clover
06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
I have never tried it, since its illegal to sell it in Canada(for no reason).

Cmanuel
06-16-2010, 09:16 PM
I have never tried it, since its illegal to sell it in Canada(for no reason).

It is made illegal in many countries for good reason. Sounds like you are implying that government officials do not put much thought into these sorts of things when it comes to food safety.. I can assure you they do.

There is no disputing the fact that Raw milk remains quite a health risk. Really dangerous pathogens like TB and Brucellosis (which carries a fairly high mortality rate) are commonly found in raw milk, in fact these are the two main reasons why pasteurization was made mandatory for raw milk. Also Raw milk is very much prone to contamination by other pathogens (e coli, listeria, etc).

The jury is still out on purported benefits of raw milk consumption, but most of the literature I've read disputes some of the health claims out there.

I refer you to a good statement on this topic by Univ. of Cornell Food Science Dept and let you make your own decisions.:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffoodscience.cornell.edu%2Fcals%2Ffoodsci%2Fextension%2Fupload%2FRAW-MILK-MQIP-Position-Statement-01-09.doc&ei=IpMZTOj1G8XgnAeDgL25Cg&usg=AFQjCNEVt3IgLY6gKgo24S9thCvXQ7ok3g&sig2=wrQCWRZ4Op8_dmoJ3v83Jw

Cmanuel
06-16-2010, 09:30 PM
Phenom, if you can find it, drink it. All the researching I have done on the web says it is superior to "pasteurized" milk because the pasteurization process destroys some of the milk's health benefits. I don't know if this is true. .

Sounds like you question the sources on them intrawebz. There are a lot of crap claims out there in the media, internet, etc. Stick with peer reviewed journal articles for the low down on science things Media might cite articles from time to time, but generally they screw it up and completely miss the point of the article.

mike mcgee
06-17-2010, 05:27 AM
Cmanuel, I agree. I can go to two different sites, get two different answers and both of them will claim scientifcally they are right. I usually take it all with a grain of salt.

Clover
06-17-2010, 02:03 PM
It is made illegal in many countries for good reason. Sounds like you are implying that government officials do not put much thought into these sorts of things when it comes to food safety.. I can assure you they do.

There is no disputing the fact that Raw milk remains quite a health risk. Really dangerous pathogens like TB and Brucellosis (which carries a fairly high mortality rate) are commonly found in raw milk, in fact these are the two main reasons why pasteurization was made mandatory for raw milk. Also Raw milk is very much prone to contamination by other pathogens (e coli, listeria, etc).

The jury is still out on purported benefits of raw milk consumption, but most of the literature I've read disputes some of the health claims out there.

I refer you to a good statement on this topic by Univ. of Cornell Food Science Dept and let you make your own decisions.:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffoodscience.cornell.edu%2Fcals%2Ffoodsci%2Fextension%2Fupload%2FRAW-MILK-MQIP-Position-Statement-01-09.doc&ei=IpMZTOj1G8XgnAeDgL25Cg&usg=AFQjCNEVt3IgLY6gKgo24S9thCvXQ7ok3g&sig2=wrQCWRZ4Op8_dmoJ3v83Jw

I just think people should be able to make their own decisions. Plenty of potentially bad things people are allowed to buy, not sure why this would be any different.

Cmanuel
06-17-2010, 03:38 PM
I just think people should be able to make their own decisions. Plenty of potentially bad things people are allowed to buy, not sure why this would be any different.

True, and you could make a great argument for that. For example, why is alcohol legal when it kills far more people than foodborne pathogens?

But for now, the Federal government sees raw milk as a public health threat, which is why interstate sales of unpasteurized milk is outlawed. However within their borders, states can come up with their own regulations and im really not too familiar with state regs.

Tom Mutaffis
06-17-2010, 03:54 PM
Here is an article from April 2010:

http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/65483/

It looks like there are some places where you can purchase raw milk in New York State.

nejar462
06-18-2010, 09:57 AM
The ridiculous thing though is you can test for diseases in raw milk so I believe its fairly moot. (I'm not going to argue this using libertarian logic, although I easily could.) If the raw milk doesn't test for bacteria it's as safe for you as anything else. While I don't necessarily agree with that pasteurizing destroys the nutrition in milk, I don't see any reason at all to ban the sale of raw milk.

Cmanuel
06-18-2010, 10:24 AM
If the raw milk doesn't test for bacteria it's as safe for you as anything else.

I agree with this, even though its kind of a duh statement (if the pathogens aren't there then of course its probably as safe as anything else). Here's the problem though: it's basically impossible to routinely test raw milk for every pathogen that has been associated with outbreaks linked to raw milk. Its too time consuming, too costly, and all around impractical.

Bosch232
06-18-2010, 10:54 AM
Here, I'll stir the pot a bit more since we're snipping about this... I have two friends who grew up on a farm south of me as kids, and they grew up drinking it their entire lives. Granted, they had direct control over obtaining it. But knowing them as I did, I seriously doubt that health codes were exactly top priority on their farm.

StLRPh
06-18-2010, 11:00 AM
Here, I'll stir the pot a bit more since we're snipping about this... I have two friends who grew up on a farm south of me as kids, and they grew up drinking it their entire lives. Granted, they had direct control over obtaining it. But knowing them as I did, I seriously doubt that health codes were exactly top priority on their farm.

And people in Mexico that are native can drink the water, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone. Just saying...


BTW, I've always been very curious about trying RAW milk but have never found it for sale and not sure if I'd trust just anyone with providing it to me.

Tom Mutaffis
06-18-2010, 11:16 AM
Just like with nutritional supplements, who you are buying from can in many cases be more important then what you are buying.

Assuming that you are buying directly from the Farmer you can always ask them about their processes/procedures. If you are not comfortable with something then you can look for other sources or choose a different beverage.

Travis Bell
06-18-2010, 11:27 AM
Tom has made the best point.

Raw milk is absolutely fine, but the place you get it from is going to determine how well it sits with you.

We have 3 farms in the immediate area that are liscensed to sell it, one of them even has their own store and ice cream parlor. Its really excellent milk, downside is you have to drink it all like within a week otherwise it goes bad

nejar462
06-18-2010, 03:32 PM
I agree with this, even though its kind of a duh statement (if the pathogens aren't there then of course its probably as safe as anything else). Here's the problem though: it's basically impossible to routinely test raw milk for every pathogen that has been associated with outbreaks linked to raw milk. Its too time consuming, too costly, and all around impractical.

I don't think you'd need to test every sample, just a statistically significant number from a batch to get a 95% confidence level (or whatever confidence level pasteurization imparts onto milk).

In any case, you could simply legislate that the raw milk needs to be tested to this amount, and force consumers to pay for the cost of testing.

I didn't actually work out the numbers, but it doesn't seem reasonable to ban the sale of raw milk to me at least.

Cmanuel
06-18-2010, 04:10 PM
I don't think you'd need to test every sample, just a statistically significant number from a batch to get a 95% confidence level (or whatever confidence level pasteurization imparts onto milk).

In any case, you could simply legislate that the raw milk needs to be tested to this amount, and force consumers to pay for the cost of testing.

I didn't actually work out the numbers, but it doesn't seem reasonable to ban the sale of raw milk to me at least.

Of course you don't test every sample. What I'm talking about is the diversity of the pathogens that are associated with Raw Milk outbreaks. Each pathogen has its own special enrichment, selective/differential media, confirmation method, etc. Its not as simple as take an aliquot of milk and put it on an agar plate, its much, much more complicated and time consuming than that, especially when testing for numerous pathogens simultaneously. So you would have to stock all the different reagents/media/supplies for each pathogen, etc. This would drive up the price of raw milk and to me, if raw milk was going to be marketable on a mass basis (i.e., national scale and not local), then the price would have to be comparable to that of organic milk, which I do not see happening.

Cmanuel
06-18-2010, 04:12 PM
Dont get me wrong, im not totally against consumption of raw milk (I think its great if people want to try it out), however I don't see federal regs which prohibit its sale being lifted anytime soon.

nejar462
06-18-2010, 05:28 PM
Of course you don't test every sample. What I'm talking about is the diversity of the pathogens that are associated with Raw Milk outbreaks. Each pathogen has its own special enrichment, selective/differential media, confirmation method, etc. Its not as simple as take an aliquot of milk and put it on an agar plate, its much, much more complicated and time consuming than that, especially when testing for numerous pathogens simultaneously. So you would have to stock all the different reagents/media/supplies for each pathogen, etc. This would drive up the price of raw milk and to me, if raw milk was going to be marketable on a mass basis (i.e., national scale and not local), then the price would have to be comparable to that of organic milk, which I do not see happening.

I don't know if you'd have to test for every pathogen everytime either. You'd just need to build a test set up using some statistical software or something. I don't really know what the added cost would be to be honest, you could very well be correct, I just wouldn't like to assume it would be prohibitively high without seeing the numbers.

Phenom
06-18-2010, 07:37 PM
I think I'd be pretty screwed anyway. I think the nearest farm that sells it is about 2-3 hours away without traffic, and if it goes bad in a week like Travis said, then I wouldn't be able to buy several gallons at a time to avoid making the trip so often.

vdizenzo
06-18-2010, 10:34 PM
The longer I go without dairy, the more I think it is just not that great. I have maintained a fair amount of strength and dropped a considerable amount of bodyfat without it. I am also not eating sugar or wheat products so I can't be certain if any one of those is better or worse than the other. I am not congested like I once was. Plus, trips to the bathroom are more pleasant. I am going to try to add each one of the above products one at a time so I can tell the effect.

I know there are arguments out that there that say the body is just not made to process dairy after a certain age.

Sorry, this post is a cross between useless and a hijack.

depotman
06-18-2010, 11:44 PM
Here is a pretty good resource if you want to read on the pro's of raw milk - http://www.realmilk.com/

Here would be a locator site for your state - http://www.realmilk.com/where.html

And just to throw a monkey wrench in it all here is an off the wall site on why not to drink milk. Some of the articles listed are fricking hilarious (not saying they aren't valid, just saying some our funny) - http://www.notmilk.com/

Cmanuel
06-19-2010, 09:23 AM
Here is a pretty good resource if you want to read on the pro's of raw milk - http://www.realmilk.com/

Weston Price foundation is NOT a good resource for unbiased information on raw milk. That advocacy group has gotten a lot of criticism for being "picky choosy" on their scientific references (You can make people believe almost anything with scientific references, even if they are unfounded).

burkeburt
09-20-2010, 11:35 AM
I have never drink out the Raw Milk but after seen out advantages of the Raw Milk can't wait to drink out....