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K-R-M
07-26-2010, 08:17 PM
Reading an article from Simmons on olympic lifting got me thinking. In it he mentioned the differences in build you'd find in different lifters and thus the different weaknesses of each.

I've noticed lately that my proportions are off, bigger triceps and back relative to deltoids and chest. Strength off the bottom on the bench is good, but speed isn't, my guess is both a lack of dynamic work and lack of strength of the chest. I also notice a weak press relative to my training partners and their press % vs their bench.

I'm raw lifter and I'm doing 5-3-1 right now and have added a bit of speed work for the bench on press day. I also warm up with push presses before my press work sets. I'm doing 4 days a week, I have two days of workout examples in my journal.

What I was wondering was if it would be a good idea to add 1 or 2 extra workouts on my upper body day. I'm thinking very short, 15 to 30 minute workouts with light isolation high rep work on DBs or very high reps on machines for both the delts and pecs. Keep in mind I'm a very light lifter, so the question would be if the added volume would actually help and if the idea of doing high reps (12 to 20) makes sense to developp my weak points.

vdizenzo
07-26-2010, 08:25 PM
I stopped reading at raw lifter doing 5/3/1 and adding a bit of speed work. I know this will come off like a jerk, but I don't know how else to say it. Do you know more than Wendler, Louie, or both? Jim has a specific design for 5/3/1 and I don't believe speed work is part of the program. Louie is probably the biggest proponent of speed work in the US and I'm certain there's no 5/3/1 to Westside. I would get my program straight before I worried about extra workouts. jmho

K-R-M
07-26-2010, 08:33 PM
I wasn't really planning on doing the speed work initially, I joined a weightlifting gym recently and the owner thought I should add it (my first session with speed work was planned for this friday). You don't come off as a jerk btw, I'm inexperienced and this is exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. I won't do it then, thanks.

NickAus
07-26-2010, 08:40 PM
As far as propotions go it does not mean too much for example my chest is big, triceps small yet my triceps are my strong point when it comes to benching.

Just go by the "everything is weak" but train your weak point first up after max or speed work ie: something like sets of 5 on the 3 board if your lock-out is bad.

Like Vinnie said I would do one or the other, personally I would go Westside as I think it is better for powerlifting training raw or not.

K-R-M
07-26-2010, 09:09 PM
As far as propotions go it does not mean too much for example my chest is big, triceps small yet my triceps are my strong point when it comes to benching.

Just go by the "everything is weak" but train your weak point first up after max or speed work ie: something like sets of 5 on the 3 board if your lock-out is bad.

Like Vinnie said I would do one or the other, personally I would go Westside as I think it is better for powerlifting training raw or not.

Basically, I should simply add the mouvement(s) for my weakness after my main lift (will stick with 5-3-1 until I build a base of mass, strength and experience under the bar) and not worry about speed or extra work outside what I already do. I'm thinking the minutes I was planning to spend on speed work would be enough for a few sets of the work I need.

hulk242
07-27-2010, 09:24 AM
On the speed work, I don't do any and not many raw guys do. I did the 531 briefly and the thing it helped, was just realizing to back off more often. I do some of Westside stuff, but changed that to suit me as well. After time, you will realize what works for you. I am not sure how long that have been doing the 531, but I would at least give it a few cycles before deviating. As far as some extra volume...just do a back off set or 2 after your main set. But, on the deload days and the middle week I would keep it to a minimum.

Adam Hires

tnathletics2b
07-27-2010, 09:47 AM
For 5-3-1 if you want to do extra work, try the "boring but big" template. If I remember correctly, you add a set of 5x10 after your main set. For example, do the 5-3-1 rep range and percentage on bench, then do 5x10 right after that. That will be plenty of work, believe me.

MarcusWild
07-27-2010, 10:46 AM
Did you join a regular commercial gym or a serious weightlifting gym? Any weightlifting gym should have a program that they follow that has been proven successful. If they don't, then don't waste your time/money on the gym. Your best bet is to follow their program and train with the people there. If it's a good environment, then you should get a lot of coaching/help with your lifts. Plus the competitiveness of lifting with others always helps.

ScottYard
07-27-2010, 11:40 AM
For 5-3-1 if you want to do extra work, try the "boring but big" template. If I remember correctly, you add a set of 5x10 after your main set. For example, do the 5-3-1 rep range and percentage on bench, then do 5x10 right after that. That will be plenty of work, believe me.

Thats a great tip...............


Im actually doing that now. I wanted a little more work for my bench workout and since I cant do many exercises due to injuries BBB fits the bill.

I would try this first and see what happens. Mixing too many programs just waters down programs and the effectiveness of them.

AdamBAG
07-27-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm a bit confused. So you do a 5-3-1 bench press day. Then on your overhead press day you do speed bench, push press to warm up, and then overhead press? That sounds like plenty of pressing work to me. I would not add extra workouts.

The absolute first thing I would do is have some of the good raw benchers on here, like Vincent and Travis, dissect your technique. Maybe there is something that can be easily fixed w/o resorting to overhauling your routine?

K-R-M
07-27-2010, 12:20 PM
Did you join a regular commercial gym or a serious weightlifting gym? Any weightlifting gym should have a program that they follow that has been proven successful. If they don't, then don't waste your time/money on the gym. Your best bet is to follow their program and train with the people there. If it's a good environment, then you should get a lot of coaching/help with your lifts. Plus the competitiveness of lifting with others always helps.

I have an old school bodybuilders gym I go to during the week and a powerlifting/strongman gym I started going to the last 2 weeks. They do have a program but its a 1h30 drive from where I am and they open up only 3 hours a day 5 days a week. Obviously, this is not ideal but this is the only powerlifting gym that's under a 2hour drive or 3 hour public transport commute and the only one on the island. I started going there to get feedback on what I'm doing and get some support to prepare for a meet from people who've went through the process. There are some pretty strong guys as well and it's motivating. This is really the best I can find where I live. As far as routine goes they liked the progress I was getting from 5-3-1 and told me to stick with that.



I'm a bit confused. So you do a 5-3-1 bench press day. Then on your overhead press day you do speed bench, push press to warm up, and then overhead press? That sounds like plenty of pressing work to me. I would not add extra workouts.

The absolute first thing I would do is have some of the good raw benchers on here, like Vincent and Travis, dissect your technique. Maybe there is something that can be easily fixed w/o resorting to overhauling your routine?

No, I was doing 5-3-1 with the assistance work no. 4, Dave Tate's periodization bible. The last two weeks, the owner kept telling me I lacked speed and wanted me to add some work, which I was going to add this friday. My current template calls for a few push press warm ups light, the pressing work sets, some DB pressing work then the rest of the assistance work. If I base myself on the comments, I should just continue with what's been working, not do the speed work, forget about the extra workouts and work on my biggest weakness right after my main lift. I have actually loved doing 5-3-1 and didn't intend on deviating before what I was told.

Sean S
07-27-2010, 12:33 PM
If you're going to continue with 5/3/1 you can simply treat your first two ramping sets as "speed work". For instance, on bench day with your 65% and 75% sets of 5 try to be as explosive as possible (of course without getting sloppy) as you work up to your 85% top set.

Travis Bell
07-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Speed work is excellent for raw benchers. It just needs to be applied properly.

I'd pick either Westside or 531 and go from there though. That should be your first step

C-Sobrino
07-27-2010, 03:59 PM
Travis, what do you mean applied property for a raw bencher vs a geared bencher? What would be the differences you would implement?

K-R-M
07-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Speed work is excellent for raw benchers. It just needs to be applied properly.

I'd pick either Westside or 531 and go from there though. That should be your first step

I'm sticking with 5-3-1.

Travis Bell
07-27-2010, 07:46 PM
Travis, what do you mean applied property for a raw bencher vs a geared bencher? What would be the differences you would implement?

I just meant applied correctly period. It's nothing special about raw or geared guys, it's just that alot of people do speed work incorrectly.

They either go too heavy, don't juggle grips, don't rotate band tensions or have sloppy technique

At Westside we have some stupid strong raw benchers. No, most of them don't do raw meets, but I do occasionally and I don't drop speed work just for raw meets. I keep it in rotation, probably just use slightly less band tension


I'm sticking with 5-3-1.


Then don't do speed work. Leave the program as it is and just do it. Jim Wendler (the guy who wrote the program) did his best powerlifting at Westside. He knows plenty about speed benching and if he'd have wanted to go from that angle he'd have included it.

bojackson
07-29-2010, 12:40 PM
ive incorporated "extra" workouts in the last cpl of months for my squat and feel as though they have helped. i didnt go into this blindly however, i got a detailed explanation and program layout from guys who have tried it and had success. its not for everyone for sure.