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Jane
05-13-2002, 09:18 PM
Different cutting approaches have different pros and cons...so wouldn't it make sense to attempt to combine two methods in such a way as to make use of as many positive aspects of both as possible?
I'm having fun thinking up slightly crazy ideas :), but what about this:

Week 1
ketogenic-style eating, carbs below 20g, cals sub maintenance
3 training sessions with a goal of strength maintenance

Week 2
isocaloric style eating, cals sub maintenance
3 training sessions, all out effort, goal of strength increase in 90% of lifts

Plan:
Week 1 + Week 2 + Week 1 etc..
OR Week 1, Week 1, Week 2, etc...

Since cals are sub maintenance all the time, fat loss should continue. Training is strongest when possibility for muscle loss is highest and training is slightly-lax when the ketosis is working to preserve muscle. The body is constantly adapting, preventing plateaus. Strength is not left behind in the dust as person focuses on cutting. A refeed day thrown in every two-three weeks or so, as needed for individual basis. Physcologically, it is very interesting--new strength and diet goals to focus on every week.

What do you all think? Slower/faster fast loss? Greater/Less muscle preservation?

Maki Riddington
05-13-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Jane


Plan:
Week 1, Week 1, Week 2, etc...



*** I like this plan. 5 days in ketosis won't do much for ya. I hardly see a point. I would od a 2 week on 1 week off with a refeed once every month.
Just MO.

Marcel
05-13-2002, 09:23 PM
Dang Jane I was kinda thinking the same thing today except that I was thinking on lifting days 40p/30c/30f or so(with high-gi carbs around lifting times and low-gi carbs at other times). Then on non-lifting days just protein & fat. This of course would get more complicated to count cals, etc.

Your plan I thing would give you slower fat loss but more muscle prevention. Anyways let's see what others have to say about this....

Jane
05-13-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
I like this plan. 5 days in ketosis won't do much for ya. I hardly see a point. I would od a 2 week on 1 week off with a refeed once every month.
Just MO.
I was thinking that too Maki :nod: 2 weeks straight keto and then instead of carb-ups and all that, shifting into a week of intense lifting and isocal or 40/30/30 as Marcel suggested.

Maki Riddington
05-13-2002, 09:54 PM
Jane, you just changed my diet plan. I was thinking and I like it a lot!

Here's a rough plan of what I would do.

2 weeks keto with 3 days of cardio for 30 mins.
1 week of low carb (100 grams) high protein and moderate fat with one carb up day.

Repeat.
This should make for a good thread.

:cool:

Jane
05-13-2002, 10:03 PM
Really? Awesome! Glad I could be of some use. Now then, I have a couple questions.
1. What is the reasoning behind 100g carb, moderate fat, high protein? Wouldn't the protein be converted for energy purposes anyway?
2. Does cardio in ketosis have different effects than cardio not in ketosis? What kind of an effect does it have on the rate of fat loss? (I realize this may be different for individuals)
3. What are your caloric levels going to be at?

the doc
05-13-2002, 10:18 PM
i like the 1 or 2 refeeds/carbups/whatever you wanna call it every 3-5 days followed by low carb days

1) I agree w/ jane here. I dont understand the ultra high protein (>250g) approach. Why not use good fat to alter caloric intake?
2) Yes cardio is much more muscle eating during keto (depends on the intensity). THe more you up the intensity, the more energy will be needed from glucose (because you exceed your aerobic/fat metabolizing capacity). You know where that glucose will come from? Your muscles (via gluconeogenesis)

Jane
05-13-2002, 10:22 PM
Doc...what about interval sprint training...say 15-20 min, 3 times a week? Not worth it?

I don't quite understand the approach you suggest. 5 days of keto+1 carb up? Isnt that a typical ckd?

the doc
05-13-2002, 10:29 PM
I think interval is ok but i would say the lower intensity would be preferred during keto (but just during keto-otherwise i really like intervals)

more or less you are right about it being CKD like, but you can do it as short as 3 days
regular ckd is 5 days keto, 2 days carb up
i think two weeks keto would unquestionably make for sh!tty workout. I dont enjoy these deep keto workouts

PowerManDL
05-13-2002, 10:32 PM
Intervals are glycogen intensive like doc said. If you don't have glycogen you should avoid them.

Jane
05-13-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by the doc
more or less you are right about it being CKD like, but you can do it as short as 3 days
regular ckd is 5 days keto, 2 days carb up
i think two weeks keto would unquestionably make for sh!tty workout. I dont enjoy these deep keto workouts
Alright then, screw cardio. I don't like it very much anyway, and if it has the possibility of eating into my muscle, screw it. The diet can do the work.

Now for this 3 day plan...wouldn't that be rather pointless? You'd hit ketosis for about half a day before jumping into a refeed. I don't really understand why refeeds would be so often when a 40/30/30/ or iso-cal would be essentially the same thing. The only benefit I can think of is keeping the muscles glycogen full but not having the effects of insulin during the 3 day no-carb part. That and the metabolism kick from such frequent refeeds. Is that at all the reasoning you were going with?

the doc
05-13-2002, 10:50 PM
ahhh but full keto is not required for fat loss. You should think of it as shifting degrees of fat burning. Carbups for muscle preservation and to fuel workouts (which burn fat by stimulating muscle growth). It takes quite a long time (48-72 hrs) to replenish glycogen stores so 12 hrs of carb eating is not ogin to kill you. 3-5 days of keto eating for fat buring purposes.

good night :)

Jane
05-14-2002, 04:36 AM
...and good morning :)
Thank you for your reply. Have you used this sort of method before?
Btw, I'm assuming the 12 hour carb period is still sub-maintenance cals, correct?

the doc
05-14-2002, 05:40 AM
good morning to you!
when do you sleep? llol!

No the carbup/refeed/whatever would undoubtedly be above maintainance.
Have i used this before? yes, it is basicly a modified NHE type program ;)

Wizard
05-14-2002, 08:35 AM
intervals just before the carb up are ace. you can avoid the full body workout by performing them. while you re on keto, low intensity is better.

Jane
05-14-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Wizard
intervals just before the carb up are ace. you can avoid the full body workout by performing them. while you re on keto, low intensity is better.
low intensity intervals....Could you be a little more specific at what that would be like? All I've ever known is sprint-walk-sprint-walk. :)

Wizard
05-14-2002, 01:51 PM
You just have to alternate the intensity.. you can also do the:slow walk/jogging It's not needed to sprint.

Maki Riddington
05-14-2002, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jane
[B]
1. What is the reasoning behind 100g carb, moderate fat, high protein? Wouldn't the protein be converted for energy purposes anyway?

*** I have found that my tolerance for high carbs isn't that great. I have to cycle my carbs according to the intensity of my workouts. To be on the safe side I'm going to keep my carbs at a moderate level. Last time I did this and kept my protein intake at around 300 grams the fat flew off. This is when I weighed around 30 pounds lighter as well. In theory the excess protein would be converted to carbs but it seems that my body adapted quite well and used most of it for the functions protein serves in the body.

2. Does cardio in ketosis have different effects than cardio not in ketosis? What kind of an effect does it have on the rate of fat loss? (I realize this may be different for individuals)

*** It would depend on the type your using. I always used moderate levels and found that it sped up my fat loss. I really think it comes down to knowing how your body reacts to certain things.

3. What are your caloric levels going to be at?

*** Ketosis: 2500 cals
High protein, moderate carb, moderate fat :2700 cals
Fat fast: 1000 cals
Two day carbs up or one day: 3400 or more

Jane
05-15-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Marcel
Your plan I thing would give you slower fat loss but more muscle prevention. Anyways let's see what others have to say about this....
This is what I thought at first as well, that rotating every other week of 40/30/30 and putting carbs back into the equation would slow fat loss. But if workouts are higher in intensity that week and calories are still at the exact same sub maintenance level, can including carbohydrate (triggering insuling release) make a significant difference in speed of fat loss?
Shouldn't getting rid of the carb up aid the speed as well?

I guess Im still hung up on calories in vs calories out. I am not sure how fast ketosis works, comparatively.

Wizard
05-15-2002, 08:32 AM
Look, a carb up has to be performed every 6-7 days if you want to lose fat fast. The pro's who carb up every 4-5 days use insulin to enter the state of ketosis much faster.. You need no less than two days to achieve it, so staying on ketosis for 5 days would be much better.