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Codeguru
10-19-2010, 01:47 AM
And I feel like crap all of a sudden. All my reps went down, luckily I haven't gone down in weights. I mean I'm sick as hell of the loose fat that has been lingering all over my body and I've decided it's gone, period. So without messing with the calorie count of my diet which is still around 2200, I've cut out about 400-500% saturated fat from my weekly diet, and a lower amount of fat, maybe 200-300%. Unfortunately that included some protein bars but I was having trouble paying for 4-5 of them a week anyway, I just replaced them with another scoop of Nitrean on those days. The only fat I have left is like 2-3 or 3-4 servings of 2% milk a day and maybe some random meat meal, this week I'm eating ground sirloin burgers burnt to a crisp. So I'd guess I'm about at 50% fat and 70% saturated fat a day. I was obviously maintaining a normal fat covered muscle figure back when I was eating maybe more than twice the fat I do now so I don't know what to think of those daily allowance percentages but they work for quick quantitative counts well enough. So is it normal to feel weaker when cutting down the fat to where I might not even be getting what my body needs a day?...

Codeguru

tom183
10-19-2010, 02:00 AM
Fat in the diet does not necesarily equal fat in the body. I would keep fats at at least 20% of your daily intake.

I have no idea how you cut 400-500% saturated fat from your diet.

Codeguru
10-19-2010, 03:24 AM
That's from my weekly diet. I halved my milk servings per day, stopped eating protein bars and started using more Nitrean, and switched to a fat free deli meat as I eat sandwiches a LOT. And fat/saturated fat is about all that's left to try to get the rest of the fat off. I'm pretty sure my cardio is beyond what I need to control calories, and my daily calorie consumption is under control. And I just started doing this pretty much over the past weekend. Still getting 160g of protein a day. I'm hoping to see some results soon but like I said, I feel crappy when trying to lift. Or at least I can't lift quite as much as I could last week...

Codeguru

Sean S
10-19-2010, 08:46 AM
Have you actually cut your calories as well? You need to keep some fat in your diet and not go into too drastic a calorie deficit or you will feel like crap. Excessive restriction of fat and saturated fat intake can also decrease testosterone levels in males, which will make you feel bad as well. If you just started this and you are already feeling significantly weaker, then you are cutting things way too drastically. You will often lose some strength as you lose weight, but it happens over a period of weeks or months, not a few days in.

Holto
10-19-2010, 11:47 AM
Fat is an important nutrient.

mchicia1
10-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Fat in foods is not the cause of fat in your body. If I were you, I would find a nice macro split and just reduce overall CALORIES. Another thing you can look into is nutrient timing. There are arguments for and against it, but I am going to try it right now anyway. The idea is to get most of your carbs in before and after training in 4-5 hour window...then maybe 1 more meal with a 1-1 protein-carb ratio. During the other meals is when you avoid carbs and go for your fat/protein combination meals.

For me, this would be

Breakfast and lunch, fat and protein meals

Preworkout shake, heavy carbs, moderate protein (2/1 carb/protein)

Postworkout shake, heavy carbs, moderate protein (2/1 carb/protein)

Dinner, a normal meal with a normal macro breakdown.

Pre-bed, protein only

I am trying to follow this pretty closely for at least the next 4 weeks to see if it actually works. My goal is to maintain or even gain weight while shedding *some* fat and still increasing my lifts.

Codeguru
10-19-2010, 02:07 PM
Have you actually cut your calories as well? You need to keep some fat in your diet and not go into too drastic a calorie deficit or you will feel like crap. Excessive restriction of fat and saturated fat intake can also decrease testosterone levels in males, which will make you feel bad as well. If you just started this and you are already feeling significantly weaker, then you are cutting things way too drastically. You will often lose some strength as you lose weight, but it happens over a period of weeks or months, not a few days in.

Nope, still eating around 2200 calories like always. And I am keeping some fat in there but I'm cutting out the huge amounts of constant fat intake...

Codeguru

ehopkins932
10-19-2010, 02:12 PM
Fat does not equal fat gain. Youd most likely be better of taking out carbs.

I see you eat a lot of bread (from the sandwiches presumably). Probably not the best idea, especially since you are getting only 160g of protein a day. Unless you are 100lbs thats nothing.

What do your total macros look like?

Codeguru
10-19-2010, 02:13 PM
Fat in foods is not the cause of fat in your body. If I were you, I would find a nice macro split and just reduce overall CALORIES. Another thing you can look into is nutrient timing. There are arguments for and against it, but I am going to try it right now anyway. The idea is to get most of your carbs in before and after training in 4-5 hour window...then maybe 1 more meal with a 1-1 protein-carb ratio. During the other meals is when you avoid carbs and go for your fat/protein combination meals.

For me, this would be

Breakfast and lunch, fat and protein meals

Preworkout shake, heavy carbs, moderate protein (2/1 carb/protein)

Postworkout shake, heavy carbs, moderate protein (2/1 carb/protein)

Dinner, a normal meal with a normal macro breakdown.

Pre-bed, protein only

I am trying to follow this pretty closely for at least the next 4 weeks to see if it actually works. My goal is to maintain or even gain weight while shedding *some* fat and still increasing my lifts.

What happens to the fat and saturated fat content when I cheat and eat half a pie? When I get 200 or 300% of the reccommeded daily saturated fat I should? Is that just excess "nutrients" that I pee out? Because that's the first time I've ever heard of fat not causing fat. I lost 60 lbs from burning off carbs and eating better, but I never kept an eye on my fat intake which apparently was my last mistake...

Codeguru

PS- I think I meant burning off calories.

Mercuryblade
10-19-2010, 02:17 PM
What happens to the fat and saturated fat content when I cheat and eat half a pie? When I get 200 or 300% of the reccommeded daily saturated fat I should? Is that just excess "nutrients" that I pee out? Because that's the first time I've ever heard of fat not causing fat. I lost 60 lbs from burning off carbs and eating better, but I never kept an eye on my fat intake which apparently was my last mistake...

Codeguru

Excess energy from caloric intake causes fat gain, not just fat intake.

Protein and carbohydrates can make you fat too.

Codeguru
10-19-2010, 02:21 PM
Fat does not equal fat gain. Youd most likely be better of taking out carbs.

I see you eat a lot of bread (from the sandwiches presumably). Probably not the best idea, especially since you are getting only 160g of protein a day. Unless you are 100lbs thats nothing.

What do your total macros look like?

I don't know what a macro is in this context. I've been told 1g of protein per 1 lb of lean mass, and since I'm still a bit fatty and I'm around 170lbs, I fudged it down to 160. And yes I eat sandwiches with Nature's Own 100% Whole Grain Bread, which now that I look have 10g of carbs per slice, so that's 10g * 8 or 10 per day. According to normal daily amounts that means I only get a max of 30% carbs from bread. I can't think of anything else that I would eat that would give me so many carbs as to be a problem...

Codeguru

tom183
10-19-2010, 05:03 PM
^--Macro is short for macronutrient. The macronutrients are carbohydrates, protein and fat. ehopkins is asking how many of each you are eating per day.

The Spartan
10-19-2010, 05:13 PM
Fat also help with testosterone production as well. by cutting your fats that low, you could be comprimising testosterone production. I would increase your fats, by simply adding a couple table spoons of all natural peanut butter through out the day. Try that and see how you feel.

Codeguru
10-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Well it's weird because right now I'm doing my regular upper body free weight workout and I'm not slowing down a bit, I could almost go up in reps. I'm thinking I could easily go up to 100lbs on my one-arm row. I guess I'll just give this a week or so rather than just a weekend and see what happens...

Codeguru

Codeguru
10-30-2010, 01:09 AM
Well I've been keeping about the same fat amount for a while now and it looks like I'm actually making progress on my ab shape finally. Starting to see actual muscle creases, even if small right now, instead of just bulges. Also that layer of fat right below the pecks is starting to retreat. So, whatever the case, cutting out all that fat and saturated fat is what I needed. I tried to calculate the macronutrients but it's just too much. There's no way in hell I can be that precise with my daily diet. But at least I can keep track of my general calories and gram intakes and this seems to be the right mix. Also trying some pyramids and reverse pyramids for my bench pressing, they seem help as well with the tired feeling...

Codeguru

Kiff
10-30-2010, 03:26 AM
I tried to calculate the macronutrients but it's just too much. There's no way in hell I can be that precise with my daily diet.

Codeguru

http://www.myfitnesspal.com

Punch in your meals in there it is by far the simplest one i have found, it also has a smartphone app. I do not know very much about diet but this will make everything easy to track.

TKisner
10-31-2010, 06:18 PM
You need fat to live. You don't need carbs to live. Thats why alot of people do ketogenic diets when they can't lost fat. you eliminate the macro you don't need not the one you do.

Codeguru
10-31-2010, 11:54 PM
You need fat to live. You don't need carbs to live. Thats why alot of people do ketogenic diets when they can't lost fat. you eliminate the macro you don't need not the one you do.

It doesn't look like I'm even getting 100% daily value of carbs anyway. The only big shot of carbs I get is from the 3 cans of Sunkist I drink a week for a caffine boost and really for the carbs as well since I goto Tae Kwon Do afterwards. But yeah I am holding the fruit back a bit as to be sure I'm not overloading on carbs. The real issue was definately fat because even after cutting back so much I still get a decently large amount according to some of the macro calculators I looked at. A lot of them were suggesting 40-50g of fat with 160g of protein on a 2000 calorie diet and I was way WAY above, probably 80 or more since I wasn't keeping track...

Codeguru

RichMcGuire
11-02-2010, 10:14 PM
Well I've been keeping about the same fat amount for a while now and it looks like I'm actually making progress on my ab shape finally. Starting to see actual muscle creases, even if small right now, instead of just bulges. Also that layer of fat right below the pecks is starting to retreat. So, whatever the case, cutting out all that fat and saturated fat is what I needed. I tried to calculate the macronutrients but it's just too much. There's no way in hell I can be that precise with my daily diet. But at least I can keep track of my general calories and gram intakes and this seems to be the right mix. Also trying some pyramids and reverse pyramids for my bench pressing, they seem help as well with the tired feeling...

Codeguru

That's because there's 9 kcals per gram of fat. Reducing fat in your diet is going to reduce your total kcals by a large amount. Total kcals is the secret for fat loss. The best time to worry about carbs or whatever weird manipulations exist is when someone is already fairly lean and may have stubborn body fat to lose.

And as others have said, fat does not make you fat. That's just absurd.

For normal dieting purposes, one of the best ways is to simply have a protein and fat goal. Once those are met, actual calorie restrictions can come from carbs or anywhere else.

ehopkins932
11-04-2010, 01:37 PM
It doesn't look like I'm even getting 100% daily value of carbs anyway. The only big shot of carbs I get is from the 3 cans of Sunkist I drink a week for a caffine boost and really for the carbs as well since I goto Tae Kwon Do afterwards. But yeah I am holding the fruit back a bit as to be sure I'm not overloading on carbs. The real issue was definately fat because even after cutting back so much I still get a decently large amount according to some of the macro calculators I looked at. A lot of them were suggesting 40-50g of fat with 160g of protein on a 2000 calorie diet and I was way WAY above, probably 80 or more since I wasn't keeping track...

Codeguru

Drinking soda before physical activity is a bad idea...great way for you energy levels to drop off mid way due to blood sugar. Replace the sunkist with something else...if you need caffeine then take some Pre-WO thing or straight caffeine pills. Even a sugarfree energy drink would be better.

And it seems like you are going by "daily value" by what the RDA is...don't.

Tracking your macros is just something you have to get used to. I dont like waking up before the sun is up to lift, but you just got to get it done.

Codeguru
11-04-2010, 02:24 PM
That's because there's 9 kcals per gram of fat. Reducing fat in your diet is going to reduce your total kcals by a large amount. Total kcals is the secret for fat loss. The best time to worry about carbs or whatever weird manipulations exist is when someone is already fairly lean and may have stubborn body fat to lose.

And as others have said, fat does not make you fat. That's just absurd.

For normal dieting purposes, one of the best ways is to simply have a protein and fat goal. Once those are met, actual calorie restrictions can come from carbs or anywhere else.

I don't understand why people are being so stubborn about this. Fat DID make me fat. I've cut my intake in half and it's reducing the bulge in a way just eating sensibly and the same amount of exercise did not. And now that I'm over my cold and able to work out as normal, I'm seeing even better results. I almost have that nice line that's suppose to go down the middle of your stomach that separates the muscles. Everything I was doing just kept me maintaining at a dumpy state, I regulated my fat intake according to a few macro calculators, and that's what worked. The semantics of that are not something I'm going to argue about...

Codeguru

Codeguru
11-04-2010, 02:30 PM
Drinking soda before physical activity is a bad idea...great way for you energy levels to drop off mid way due to blood sugar. Replace the sunkist with something else...if you need caffeine then take some Pre-WO thing or straight caffeine pills. Even a sugarfree energy drink would be better.

And it seems like you are going by "daily value" by what the RDA is...don't.

Tracking your macros is just something you have to get used to. I dont like waking up before the sun is up to lift, but you just got to get it done.

Yeah, again, money is always an issue. My big spend right now IS Nitrean, so you can see how things are there. A can of soda seems to work all around without throwing carbs too much out of whack, and they cost $.25 a can. I'm only sorry they seemed to stop selling Vault in stores, it had a nice amount of caffene for the same price...

Codeguru

RichMcGuire
11-04-2010, 07:56 PM
I don't understand why people are being so stubborn about this. Fat DID make me fat. I've cut my intake in half and it's reducing the bulge in a way just eating sensibly and the same amount of exercise did not. And now that I'm over my cold and able to work out as normal, I'm seeing even better results. I almost have that nice line that's suppose to go down the middle of your stomach that separates the muscles. Everything I was doing just kept me maintaining at a dumpy state, I regulated my fat intake according to a few macro calculators, and that's what worked. The semantics of that are not something I'm going to argue about...

Codeguru

I think you're being the stubborn one about this. Extra calories made you fat. Reducing your fat made you drop calories more than you realized, hence, whoa, all of a sudden you dropped fat. I mean, can you even tell me how fat made you fat? I'd love to hear how it violates thermodynamics and numerous scientific studies and basic biology. It's obvious you don't understand what you're talking about so if you want advice,you should listen to what we have to say instead of debating proven science.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're on your way to a 6-pack and extreme level of leanness with your secret to fat loss that even violates science! Good luck with that and let me know how it works out for ya in the long run.

Codeguru
11-08-2010, 01:19 AM
Ok, ok, fine. I did neglect to look at one thing which is apparently bananas have a buttload of calories and carbs and I like to eat the biggest ones that I can find, and I was eating two a day. So maybe I'll eat medium size ones and one a day. So that's basically cutting out 200 calories and 51g of carbs a day assuming what I eat amounted to a cup full of banana and according to my test tonight it most likely does every time, that or more. It's too bad because I want to make sure to get a lot of potassium but at least I don't have to worry about fiber with all the whole grain bread...

Codeguru

PS- And for the record, you people conflict yourselves constantly when you practically scream "You need fat, You need fat" and then tell me to look at macro caculations. According to most of them I'm still eating way more fat than I should since I wasn't really even keeping track of saturated fat until now. There's no way in hell anyone could hope to cut too much fat out of their diet. Around 48g of fat is about the average I keep getting quoted by the different ratios for a 2200 calorie diet. I could down that at breakfast if I was even the least bit lax in what I eat.

Sean S
11-08-2010, 06:39 AM
There's no actual contradiction regarding the fat content. You're only eating 19-20% of your calories as fat. Most would recommend something closer to 30% and even more than that if they are on a low carb diet. You also have to realize that most hard training males on this site can lose weight on significantly more than 2200 calories so it skews everyone's perspective as well. You're correct in that it's easy for the fat grams to add up if you make high fat food choices. Even with that it is possible to eat too little fat, which can lead to reproductive hormone problems in both men and women.
The bottom line is you've found something that is working for you. Anyone who is losing weight has created a calorie deficit and you've figured out what it takes to do that for you so there's no point in arguing about it.

TKisner
11-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Quote from Michael Pollan in Tony Gentilcore's blog today. I thought it was relevent.

"The low-fat campaign is to Nutritionism as the Soviet Union or Communist China was to Marxism. Both were itís greatest test and most abject failure."

Codeguru
11-11-2010, 12:05 AM
There's no actual contradiction regarding the fat content. You're only eating 19-20% of your calories as fat. Most would recommend something closer to 30% and even more than that if they are on a low carb diet. You also have to realize that most hard training males on this site can lose weight on significantly more than 2200 calories so it skews everyone's perspective as well. You're correct in that it's easy for the fat grams to add up if you make high fat food choices. Even with that it is possible to eat too little fat, which can lead to reproductive hormone problems in both men and women.
The bottom line is you've found something that is working for you. Anyone who is losing weight has created a calorie deficit and you've figured out what it takes to do that for you so there's no point in arguing about it.

I wonder now that I look at this "Zone Diet" thing, it lists 165g of protein for a 2200 calorie diet as normal which is what I've been trying to get every day all along. Maybe I'll try to shoot for that. I guess I can always just stop eating bananas because that is a huge chunk of carbs every day. With what I normally eat every day it ends up being 219g of carbs if I take out the banana, and the carb count for the calculation is 220g. I hope I don't get potassium scurvy. And yet I still don't see where I'm gonna get like 25 more grams of fat to meet that percentage without upping the calories a lot. I guess I can always bring back a PB&J sandwich but to take out a medium banana and replace it with over 300 calories doesn't really help me. Suppose I'll just have to eat chaotically until my fat bulges goto hell...

Codeguru

PS- It does occur to me, as I was asking about Walnuts before, 200 calories for 20g of fat, most of which is the good stuff. I guess I'm just thinking "out loud" here, heh.

Codeguru
11-14-2010, 06:52 PM
Yeah, so anyway, I went back up to 50-55 grams of fat and I feel a lot better, so I guess as long as the calories stay close to the same I'll be able to do more cardio which will help even more. But I swear to god I cannot get my saturated fat to quit approaching 100% recommended everyday if that's even the perfect amount to get, it's a hazard of drinking 2% milk I guess but skim just isn't milk. It turns out my original turkey deli slices have more than half of the fat as mono/poly unsaturated. So, whatever, gonna try out not eating bananas for a while and see if my fat starts to miss the truck load of carbs in them and will pack up and leave. Thanks for the advice...

Codeguru

Sean S
11-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Don't sweat the saturated fat too much. Unless you have a significant problem with very high blood cholesterol levels it's not that important to micromanage your saturated fat intake. Even then it's somewhat questionable whether it truly causes the problems that people once thought it did. If you are eating a reasonably healthy diet, exercising regularly, and losing fat you're doing fine from a health standpoint, so don't worry about it.

TKisner
11-14-2010, 09:25 PM
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_article/the_truth_about_saturated_fat_1;jsessionid=090BA275F635E8F2092C5BE00D5E24F4-he.hydra&s=forumIndexTopic

Worth a read

BMG1
11-21-2010, 07:29 AM
I'm suprised. Healthy fats are vital in my opinion. Im pretty sure 80% of body fat is caused mainly by unprocessed carbs then the other 20% from fats and the majority of that is unsaturated.

Everyone is different though I suppose