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Brian205
11-19-2010, 05:27 PM
Hi Guys,

Just wondering,


Generally

1) If a Powerlifter or Strongman fights a Karate Guy,

who would win ?


I know it depends on the person fighting.

Your opinions,



2) Powerlifting / Strongman as a self defense system, (Strength Gain + Average Guy Fighting Skills)

Can strong guys like us beat up Martial Arts guys,


Your opinions,

danki
11-19-2010, 07:00 PM
Being big and strong doesn't have too much to do with it. Haven't you ever seen Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris knock out a guy twice their size with one kick?


Really though, there are guys that are huge, strong, and good fighters. They would, and do win.


Of course, size and strength can make up for lack of fighting skill in the real world. If you are 6'3 and 250+
you'll be able to overpower a 150lb guy pretty easily unless he's a worldclass fighter.

gmen5681
11-19-2010, 08:02 PM
there was a book i was reading recently, i dont remember which book it was but it was talking about how they had a world class champion in some martial arts form and this elite level powerlifter that trained in the same gym and they sparred once for fun and the powerlifter just man handled the martial arts dude. it might have been dinosaur training by Brooks Kubik. but none the less thats what went down. im sure it depends on the size of both men though too. im sure a 160lbs gold medalist would beat the **** out of an elite level 180lbs PLer.

Power of Mind
11-19-2010, 08:14 PM
I think it has a lot to do with the drive of the person. Some people can naturally hurt others easier and more willingly and thus are able to unleash their force on another person without hesitation.. I'm sure there are gentle giant powerlifters as well as crazy martial arts gurus that have never hurt a fly nor desire to.

I dont know though, Bruce Lee whooped some serious ASS. Not much you can do, regardless of strength or drive, when someone is capable of poking both of your eyes out before you see their hand move. Of course I guess reach comes into play then... bah

SELK
11-19-2010, 09:54 PM
I bet 130lbs girls exist that could whoop my ass.. not to mention if the fight lasted longer then a set of 3 reps.. Im toast!

dedsqtbnch
11-19-2010, 10:22 PM
there is a guy at my work who used to have the gyantizm thing in his brain befor he had surgery and he is 6.8 355pounds and not that fat and that dude is so ****ing strong its not funny and he dont even lift weights hes a bouncer too always talks about beeting every one up at work lol im second biggest at 225 or so

Brian205
11-20-2010, 12:03 AM
Guys, check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jS8cWMhu4


the Big guy should have clinched the skinny kid,


:)

Sensei
11-20-2010, 08:44 AM
Powerlifting and strongman are not "defense systems"...

Mariusz Pudzianowski has been in some MMA fights - he's about as big and as strong as they come and he's certainly not undefeated.

In some ways (not all), being big becomes a liability as time passes and you get gassed.

theBarzeen
11-20-2010, 09:41 AM
Powerlifting and strongman are not "defense systems"...

Mariusz Pudzianowski has been in some MMA fights - he's about as big and as strong as they come and he's certainly not undefeated.

In some ways (not all), being big becomes a liability as time passes and you get gassed.

yea, AND Mariusz was a boxer before he got in to strongman....... his fights are brutal though, I've never seen such a terrifying leg kick.


With that said, nothing will PREVENT ever having to fight like walking around at 300# with traps up to your ears....... that and manners, but that's a whole different thread.

joey54
11-20-2010, 03:12 PM
Trained, legitmate martial artist will almost always beat the crap out of said powerlifter with no formal training regardless of size. Now, things might change if the powerlifter has some training in martial arts.

dedsqtbnch
11-20-2010, 03:38 PM
Guys, check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jS8cWMhu4


the Big guy should have clinched the skinny kid,


:)



that was tight good post

thewookie
11-20-2010, 04:45 PM
I bet 130lbs girls exist that could whoop my ass.. not to mention if the fight lasted longer then a set of 3 reps.. Im toast!

Haha! I know how you feel man. If it lasts longer than a couple punches or enough time to get a choke on the other guy (Thank you 6 years of Jiu Jitsu as a kid :P), i'm a gonner.

chris mason
11-20-2010, 05:18 PM
Trained, legitmate martial artist will almost always beat the crap out of said powerlifter with no formal training regardless of size. Now, things might change if the powerlifter has some training in martial arts.

Not true, not in real life.

In real life brute strength trumps a lot of things. Sure, a lucky punch etc., but unless someone is really, really good at a particular martial art a big and strong guy will often win in a street fight.

chris mason
11-20-2010, 05:20 PM
Guys, check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jS8cWMhu4


the Big guy should have clinched the skinny kid,


:)

It was obviously limited to only a boxing match. I do think that is a good example - if the big guy was able to grapple I am pretty sure he would have destroyed bones...

NickAus
11-20-2010, 05:24 PM
Dumb thread.

patos
11-20-2010, 06:01 PM
If size didn't matter, there wouldn't be weight classes in fighting sports. Overwhelming size and strength will beat skill far more often than otherwise, and the bigger the discrepency, the truer this statement is.

Tim K
11-20-2010, 06:25 PM
Most fights quickly end up on the ground. Once on the ground, if you have a huge size and strength advantage over your opponent it will trump skill. Street fighting is a completely different animal than anything in the ring with a referee.

joey54
11-20-2010, 07:18 PM
Not true, not in real life.

In real life brute strength trumps a lot of things. Sure, a lucky punch etc., but unless someone is really, really good at a particular martial art a big and strong guy will often win in a street fight.

We'll disagree on this one Chris. Brute strength is important, but won't do a hill of beans if a person can't take getting punched in the face or gets their body twisted in knots before they even know what happens.

Power of Mind
11-21-2010, 03:55 PM
We'll disagree on this one Chris. Brute strength is important, but won't do a hill of beans if a person can't take getting punched in the face or gets their body twisted in knots before they even know what happens.

I'd be willing to bet being big and strong makes taking punches a bit easier... I mean, if I punch one of my tiny buddies in the arm, I could easily break his arm.. Whereas he can probably punch me about 10-20 times as hard as he wants before i start to complain.

I used to let this black belt in high school beat up on me, just for fun. I took his hardest punch in several places, and with me expecting them, it barely phased me.

Not to say that smaller guys can't be tough too. I've got some tiny and tough redneck buddies around here lol.

Also, a man much smaller and weaker would have a hard time wrapping up a big guy into knots. Some of our best lighter wrestlers in high school were never able to do anything with me because I simply overpowered them..

It all depends on the person though.

Edit: A good example of this in my eyes is Brock Lesnar. Sure he's been beaten. But he's won a lot of fights simply because of his size. I'm aware he's obviously well trained in martial arts and a very strong and athletic wrestler. But I remember one fight where he simply picked the guy up, slammed him to the ground, and hammer punched him to hell.

joey54
11-21-2010, 05:20 PM
Great Brock Lesnar, let's use him as an example. When he was untrained 195 lb Matt Hughes ran circles around him when grappling and submitted him with ease. Probably was outweighed by 100 lbs. Once he got training under his belt, he became much more dangerous with that strengh. Being just able to lift a lit if weight won't really help out in a fight against someone who knows what they are doing and are very good at it.

SoCoBarbell
11-21-2010, 09:28 PM
Just because someone is "trained" in martial arts doesn't mean crap! You could be the most well trained fighter in the world but, if you aint got any heart you're still a punk who'll get his ass beat by someone who just likes to fight.

I have 2 cousins that are black belts and have been in martial arts since we were kids "we're now in our 30's" They're both punks. That's why most people get into karate in the first place because their scared. If you're scared you wont be a good fighter..............

To be a good fighter you first have to have heart. Everything else comes after.

JSully
11-21-2010, 09:53 PM
It was obviously limited to only a boxing match. I do think that is a good example - if the big guy was able to grapple I am pretty sure he would have destroyed bones...

lol @ bones

bob sapp did a mediocre job for a while, lulz

JSully
11-21-2010, 09:56 PM
I'd be willing to bet being big and strong makes taking punches a bit easier... I mean, if I punch one of my tiny buddies in the arm, I could easily break his arm.. Whereas he can probably punch me about 10-20 times as hard as he wants before i start to complain.

i call bull****

GarageGorilla
11-21-2010, 09:56 PM
With comparable skill, the bigger and stronger guy will almost always win. The less skill the larger guy has compared to the smaller guy, the more of a chance the smaller guy has. The obvious choice then, is to be big and strong AND a well-trained fighter.

Hazerboy
11-22-2010, 01:45 AM
this is always a case by case basis. You can't just make generalized statements like "oh the bigger guy always wins!" or "skill trumps strength!" etc etc. Strength is a DECIDING factor, but certainly not *the only* deciding factor. From here you can cite whatever examples you want, post more youtube fight videos, or try to rationalize your way out of this box but at the end of the day thats the only real conclusion we can come up with.

I know I always have my money on the guy who knows how to play the sport. But there certainly is a good reason there are weight classes in fighting.

johnst_nhb
11-22-2010, 05:25 PM
I had to check my url string and make sure I did not accidentally log onto bodybuilding.com.

KarstenDD
11-22-2010, 05:53 PM
Hi Guys,

Just wondering,


Generally

If an oak tree fights a marmot,

who would win ?

mastermonster
11-22-2010, 05:56 PM
All things being equal a well trained martial artist will have a decided advantage in a street fight. The well trained martial artist also has a big element of supprise advantage if the other guy doesn't know he is trained. That's why you don't blurt that out when some a**hole starts causing trouble. Here's the deal. With a heavyweight powerlifter and an average martial artist, who has the advantage. It depends. I doubt Chuck Norris in his prime would want to piss off Garry Frank in his! You have 165 vs. 365+ and both very quick and fast and both used to violent sports (getting hit don't bother them).

Now the real nightmare. Take the heavyweight powerlifter who has an athletes background, and train him in martial arts. Now things start to shift heavily to the powerlifter again. When I was 28 (after college FB) and into BBing and powerlifting I was into Full-Contact Karate (KPA). I weighted 230ish with a 53 inch chest and 34 inch waist then and was very quick...and strong. My instructor was a 3rd degree black belt (eaerned old school. Not express belt like some now). He'd fought against Bill (Superfoot) Wallace and was a very successful tournament fighter. When I was with him he was about 150ish lbs. He nor any of our Blackbelts would sparr me full contact. They would in points sparring (high speed tag), but not full contact. We had one other heavyweight full contact guy and me and him had to sparr each other all the time (6'4" 210 lbs.).

The point I'm making is that when it's 'REAL' the size and strength part becomes a very big advantage in any fight (street or ring). I was a green belt and no where near as advanced in rank as my instructor. Once you have the fighting basics mastered, the flash and flair to get the higher belts doesn't mean as much as size and strength when it's life or death. That's why my Blackbelt said "I ain't crazy".

Also, about the Marius comment that being 300 lbs. with traps up to your ears will keep you out of most fight; that's true to some degree. But, when a guy has a bunch buddy's at the bar too; it means your going to have to fight several guys. That's why I keep my buddy Mr. Glock around now a days...I'm too old to want to fight! The only 2 fights (after High School) I've been in outside the ring were against 4 guys (outside a bar) and 5 guys (gang boys stabbed one of my basketball players). The only reason I beat those guys and survived was that I was much bigger and stronger...and much better trained to fight. It always best to have all of the advantages; not just one or the other.

P.S. I hate fighting outside the ring. The only reason I'd fight now is a threat to my life or my family's. It will be one blow if possible. It's not a sport if it doesn't have a referee and there are no rules except stay alive.

pricedtosell
11-24-2010, 09:31 PM
lol @ bones

bob sapp did a mediocre job for a while, lulz

Bob Sapp beat Ernesto Hoost (commonly considered one of the best kickboxers ever) in kickboxing twice. This was back when Sapp actually trained a bit and didn't just show up to collect a paycheck, though.

This thread's pretty silly, but I'll contribute. Just about all traditional martial arts are completely worthless for actual fights. I'd put money on just about any random kid with a year or two of high school wrestling experience slamming any tae kwon do or karate black belt on his head, same with any powerlifter/strongman that gets his hands on a traditional martial artist.

Grapplers are another story entirely. It doesn't matter how big and strong you are if you take on a competent submission wrestler/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter, they'll choke you unconscious in no time at all. I trained muay thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for around 4 years each and got to see plenty of tough guys walk in who wanted to "test themselves" just to end up getting choked unconscious in seconds.

NickAus
11-24-2010, 10:03 PM
Hate to tell you mate but PLENTY and I mean plenty of BJJ guys are soft as.

Not at top level but trust me many will turn to water in a tough street fight, a good scrapper is not going to just get taken down and choked out plus most guys who like to fight will start the fight and blind shot you or slam your back into a bar with-out warning you first and that is half the reason they mostly win.

Way too many what ifs so its a stupid thread (and he did say Karate) but all this love off BJJ pisses me of and yes I have done it and was a blue belt who competed a fair bit.

Songsangnim
11-25-2010, 12:28 AM
this is always a case by case basis. You can't just make generalized statements like "oh the bigger guy always wins!" or "skill trumps strength!" etc etc. Strength is a DECIDING factor, but certainly not *the only* deciding factor. From here you can cite whatever examples you want, post more youtube fight videos, or try to rationalize your way out of this box but at the end of the day thats the only real conclusion we can come up with.

I know I always have my money on the guy who knows how to play the sport. But there certainly is a good reason there are weight classes in fighting.


The reason that there are weight classes in fighting is that all people in those classes (if we are talking pro) are well-trained and have plenty of skill. So if the skill level is fairly the same then yes size and strength becomes (often) an overwhelming advantage.

And I would also put my money on the guy who knows how to play the sport. You can be eight feet tall at 300 hundred pounds of muscle but all it would take is one good kick to the kneecap and it's game over. There are just too many vulnerable spots on the human body by which a trained fighter could take someone down with one punch or kick. Now if they are in a ring with a referee under certain rules...it might be a different story.

pricedtosell
11-25-2010, 12:48 AM
Hate to tell you mate but PLENTY and I mean plenty of BJJ guys are soft as.

Not at top level but trust me many will turn to water in a tough street fight, a good scrapper is not going to just get taken down and choked out plus most guys who like to fight will start the fight and blind shot you or slam your back into a bar with-out warning you first and that is half the reason they mostly win.

Way too many what ifs so its a stupid thread (and he did say Karate) but all this love off BJJ pisses me of and yes I have done it and was a blue belt who competed a fair bit.

That's why I said a "competent" submission wrestler/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter. Anyone who's spent more than a year or two on the mat, actually has a pair of balls and isn't half ******ed will win a street fight against your average tough guy 9 out of 10 times, no question. I don't even care if he is a "good scrapper." Unless he's trained grappling, he's getting taken down, that's just all there is to it. "Being tough" won't defend a double leg and it won't help get blood flow to your brain when you're being choked.

I do realize your point though, about how many trained "grapplers" or "fighters" mentally fall apart once they see someone in front of them actually trying to hurt them. These are the guys that train at places like Gracie Barra or got their blue belts at a Royce Gracie seminar and never roll at 100% in training. Even then, you're only going to find people like that up to blue belt level. At least I've never come across a purple belt who wasn't at least relatively tough. It doesn't matter that no punches are thrown in training, if you're rolling at 100% in BJJ day in-day out, you're not going to be a pussy.

Funny that pretty much anyone will agree that this is a stupid topic to debate, but it's pretty hard not to offer your opinion on it.

NickAus
11-25-2010, 03:13 AM
^You do know what your talking about.

Blue belts handed out at seminars made me laugh!

Yeah your right a grappler WITH good take down skills will go well, the problem is when guys just do BJJ as you probably know most schools spent 5% of there time teaching takedowns of which are nothing like a wrestlers double leg.
Funny thing is the take down and control is the most important part but the classes are so full there is no room so you normally start from ground.
Easy for guys doing BJJ to get a false sense of their fight ability.
You would have no doubt rolled with guys who always jump to guard (even guys who win plenty of comps) and these guys are in for a shock in a scrap I can tell you.

And yeah most purple belts and above will likely not be pussys that I agree with.

As far as "good scrappers" just getting taken down 9 times out of 10 I do not agree unless it is a situation where it's two guys that are both ready and square off then yeah your scenario would be correct 99% of the time.
Not often will it be a nice fair square off and that is a very important factor, can the BJJ guy take a good one to the chin? How does he know?

As for size and strength it will not be as much use as people think on the ground against a GOOD grappler, I have seen too many times to remember huge powerful guys having no change of getting a 180lb wrestler/grappler off them.
Then people will say stuff like "oh but what if the big guy wants to bite and claw" well guess what the other guy can still do that to and from a better position so that is not a good answer.

Bottom line Powerlifting really will not help you all that much against a guy who can punch and wrestle and likes to fight but against a pansy Karate guy who collects ninja stars and thinks he can just break your knee with a low kick I guarantee the Powerlifter will win if he has balls.

patricky
11-25-2010, 03:36 AM
Wow what a dumb thread.
I've been in fights myself and unless the powerlifter is twice the guys size and strength it all comes down to personallity.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog.

All this b.s is amazing.

NickAus
11-25-2010, 03:57 AM
I agree stupid thread but isn't it funny that we are all so aggressive we want to put in our 2 cents like you just did.

Most females would not even check out the thread lol.

mastermonster
11-25-2010, 11:56 AM
Agreed Nick! Definately a testosterone thread! LOL! And as for the "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" quote. The movie directors love that one! It makes it easier to believe when their little skinny leading man kicks the big bad biker's a**! But I'll bet on a big old sluggish Bloodhound against a fiesty little bitchy Chiwawa (spelling, but then who cares how to spell that?) all day long.