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Eric Cartman
12-18-2010, 11:24 AM
A personal trainer told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training, the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition. He basically said that its the quality of the calories that matters.

He said you can lift weights and eat a calorie surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits, nuts and vegetables,... your weight will stay the same or even increase.. but your body fat will decrease.

By cutting out certain carbs like pasta, bread, etc.. and replacing them with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you will train your body to burn energy more efficiently and use fat for energy..

I think this is known in the weightlifting world as "recomping"... your weight stays the same but your bodyfat decreases.

So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

is this true, or is he wrong?

anonymous1
12-18-2010, 11:35 AM
This is the problem with taking advice from others as opposed to learning things for yourself. There is truth in what he says, but what he says is not true. You are not going to figure it out based on forum replies, either. If you're going to spend a lifetime weight training take time and research these things yourself so you actually understand.

Clover
12-18-2010, 11:37 AM
the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition

Suppose you ate 10,000 clean calories...what do you think would happen to your bodyfat composition?

f=ma
12-18-2010, 01:18 PM
its so much more complicated than that

quality matters
quantity matters

what the exact division of responsibility really comes down to is dependent on the individual and the other input factors in your training. if you bulk very carefully you will not gain as much fat than if you go 500-750/cal/day over

Dan Fanelli
12-18-2010, 02:00 PM
For the most part what he told you is correct. Coming from a trainer, this is very good advice. He is WAY ahead of the curve as far as im concerned.

The QUANTITY of food you eat will have the biggest effect on your body weight. If you are already at your ideal bodyweight, then you dont need to change your calories much. You might have to increase them just a bit because you'll be working out harder and building muscle, but that actual balance will stay around neutral.

As for QUALITY, im sure others will disagree, but I dont think quality matters much. What matters more, is the macro/micro nutrients found within the food and the effect they have on our body. For example, foods like bread and juice are loaded with sugar, and will ellicit an insulin response. This can be good or bad, but it has nothing to do with the "quality" of the food.

The other important factor is your lifestyle. Everything you do will effect the hormones that effect body composition and health. Nutrition, exercise, genetics, lifestyle, and outside factors, etc. will all play into this. Two of the biggest factors are nutrition and exercise, so those are the ones that should always be addressed first. Its a really complicated system and thats why it can be so confusing. And to make things worse, people in the industry try to oversimplify things to make them more understandable to general public.

Just start reading and learning, because ther is a ton of information everywhere.

tom183
12-19-2010, 01:46 AM
So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

That is wrong but that's also not what he said. You can gain fat and still have your body fat percentage drop.

Raleighwood
12-19-2010, 04:37 PM
High quality, clean foods are generally hard to gorge on. They are generally high in protein and/or fiber. Both of these food ingredients are inherently lower calorie and/or more satiating than the other nutrients. Generally, clean foods are less calorie-dense and tend to cause less of a glycemic response, but this can vary.

Low quality, processed, dirty food like ice cream, cookies, fast food etc. is pumped full of salt, sugar and fat. Your brain and physiology responds to these foods like crack. You are evolutionarily predisposed to be addicted to these foods. So it will be very easy to over eat with these.

The trainer is wrong in the fact that if you over eat too much of the right foods that it won't go to fat. However, if you do eat a lot of the right foods, you will naturally be more satiated (as opposed to eating tons of junk food) and probably won't eat as much. Since you want to build muslce, which requires enough resources, you will be needing high enough protein and calories to support growth and recovery.

So to make a long story short...

Clean eating of high protein (meats) and high fiber foods (vegetables) will provide you a great nurtient profile while filling you up and effectively preventing you from over eating.

That is why I recommend my clients (if they are trying to lose body fat) is to eat roughly their body weight, in pounds, in grams of protein from meats and then double their portion (of the meats) of vegetables by volume. This isn't meant to be precise, for example 4 oz of a meat is a modest portion, you'd then want ~8oz or whatever looks double sized in vegetables compared to meat.

Now, if you can manage your calories and nutrients then there is no reason you can't get away with eating dirty. And eating those foods can be very effective if you are having a hard time getting enough calories in.

Songsangnim
12-19-2010, 05:54 PM
A personal trainer told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training, the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition. He basically said that its the quality of the calories that matters.

He said you can lift weights and eat a calorie surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits, nuts and vegetables,... your weight will stay the same or even increase.. but your body fat will decrease.

By cutting out certain carbs like pasta, bread, etc.. and replacing them with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you will train your body to burn energy more efficiently and use fat for energy..

I think this is known in the weightlifting world as "recomping"... your weight stays the same but your bodyfat decreases.

So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

is this true, or is he wrong?



He could well be right. Of course that would entail his body following different laws of physics then the rest of us...

Seriously though consistently taking in a surplus of calories be they clean or 'dirty' is going to cause you to gain fat eventually. The biggest impact that quality calories have is on your health not 'managing' bodyfat levels.

Dan Fanelli
12-19-2010, 07:02 PM
He could well be right. Of course that would entail his body following different laws of physics then the rest of us...

Seriously though consistently taking in a surplus of calories be they clean or 'dirty' is going to cause you to gain fat eventually. The biggest impact that quality calories have is on your health not 'managing' bodyfat levels.

There is no law of physics that mentions anything about fat. This is ABSOLUTELY possible, if the calorie balance goes up he'll gain WEIGHT. This has nothing to do with fat.....

K-R-M
12-20-2010, 05:40 AM
He could well be right. Of course that would entail his body following different laws of physics then the rest of us...

Seriously though consistently taking in a surplus of calories be they clean or 'dirty' is going to cause you to gain fat eventually. The biggest impact that quality calories have is on your health not 'managing' bodyfat levels.

You're mistaking physics and biology.


We have a pretty good understanding of physics (thermodynamics) -> Eat a surplus (maintenance btw, is not a stable line that is equal for everyone) and you will gain weight.

We still don't have a very good understanding of Biology -> will you gain fat or muscle? Depends on genes, diet, training, etc... There was a guy here who stayed at 165lbs in 3 months, but shredded, which would imply he lost fat and gained muscle...

Behemoth
12-20-2010, 08:03 AM
High quality, clean foods are generally hard to gorge on. They are generally high in protein and/or fiber. Both of these food ingredients are inherently lower calorie and/or more satiating than the other nutrients. Generally, clean foods are less calorie-dense and tend to cause less of a glycemic response, but this can vary.

Low quality, processed, dirty food like ice cream, cookies, fast food etc. is pumped full of salt, sugar and fat. Your brain and physiology responds to these foods like crack. You are evolutionarily predisposed to be addicted to these foods. So it will be very easy to over eat with these.

The trainer is wrong in the fact that if you over eat too much of the right foods that it won't go to fat. However, if you do eat a lot of the right foods, you will naturally be more satiated (as opposed to eating tons of junk food) and probably won't eat as much. Since you want to build muslce, which requires enough resources, you will be needing high enough protein and calories to support growth and recovery.

So to make a long story short...

Clean eating of high protein (meats) and high fiber foods (vegetables) will provide you a great nurtient profile while filling you up and effectively preventing you from over eating.

That is why I recommend my clients (if they are trying to lose body fat) is to eat roughly their body weight, in pounds, in grams of protein from meats and then double their portion (of the meats) of vegetables by volume. This isn't meant to be precise, for example 4 oz of a meat is a modest portion, you'd then want ~8oz or whatever looks double sized in vegetables compared to meat.

Now, if you can manage your calories and nutrients then there is no reason you can't get away with eating dirty. And eating those foods can be very effective if you are having a hard time getting enough calories in.


He could well be right. Of course that would entail his body following different laws of physics then the rest of us...

Seriously though consistently taking in a surplus of calories be they clean or 'dirty' is going to cause you to gain fat eventually. The biggest impact that quality calories have is on your health not 'managing' bodyfat levels.

Pretty much what these guys said.

Wlfdg
12-20-2010, 08:47 AM
A personal trainer told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training, the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition. He basically said that its the quality of the calories that matters.

He said you can lift weights and eat a calorie surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits, nuts and vegetables,... your weight will stay the same or even increase.. but your body fat will decrease.

By cutting out certain carbs like pasta, bread, etc.. and replacing them with fruits, nuts, and vegetables, you will train your body to burn energy more efficiently and use fat for energy..So if your maintenance calories are 2000, and you power lift and eat 2500 calories of the right foods, you will lose fat.

is this true, or is he wrong?Personal Experience - When I switched to the Paleo diet 2 yrs. ago. I was 243# @ 20%BF. In 2 months I dropped to 238# @ 15% BF. For the next 3 months I stayed at 238# but continued to lose bodyfat. I was doing my own version of a 5x5 program. I was eating over maintainance.
I'm 43yrs. and I have been training consistently since I was a little kid, serious weight training for over 30yrs.

Bosch232
12-20-2010, 11:34 AM
Personal Experience - When I switched to the Paleo diet 2 yrs. ago. I was 243# @ 20%BF. In 2 months I dropped to 238# @ 15% BF. .

I'm not following this.
20% bf at 243 lbs is 48.6 pounds of fat.
15% bf at 238 lbs is 35.7 pounds of fat.

Which means a difference of 13 pounds. Not 5 lbs.

Am I applying the numbers wrong? :scratch:

Holto
12-20-2010, 11:44 AM
I'm not following this.
20% bf at 243 lbs is 48.6 pounds of fat.
15% bf at 238 lbs is 35.7 pounds of fat.

Which means a difference of 13 pounds. Not 5 lbs.

Am I applying the numbers wrong? :scratch:

He gained 8lbs of lean mass while dropping 13 lbs of fat in two months for a net loss of 5lbs of weight.

Behemoth
12-20-2010, 11:50 AM
No. He thinks he did.

Sean S
12-20-2010, 11:52 AM
The responses here are getting rather confusing. If you are eating over maintenance calorie levels, you have to gain weight because above maintenance means above the caloric level required to maintain bodyweight. The proportion of that weight gain that is muscle or fat can depend on a number of factors (amount over maintenance, training program, etc...), but you will still gain weight. If you are eating above maintenance and not gaining weight, then you aren't eating above maintenance. Eating clean and chronically above maintenance won't make you lose fat. It's just easier to keep your caloric intake under control with "clean" foods since they typically aren't as calorically dense.

r2473
12-20-2010, 01:13 PM
..........

Wlfdg
12-20-2010, 01:15 PM
Two questions:

1) How tall are you?

2) Are you natural or are these drug assisted numbers?I am 6'1.75" and coffee is my training drug of choice. I'm not a bodybuilder or a strength athlete. I'm actually a large endurance athlete. I backcountry splitboard as a job. I do research and development for a ski and snowboard company.

Wlfdg
12-20-2010, 01:18 PM
No. He thinks he did.
No I did! It's not a "thinks".

r2473
12-20-2010, 01:21 PM
..........

Holto
12-20-2010, 02:12 PM
No. He thinks he did.

I was trying to be polite, but I'm sure you knew that.

Holto
12-20-2010, 02:14 PM
No I did! It's not a "thinks".

Pretty much everybody here who really knows their stuff thinks this is impossible.

We're not calling you a liar by any means just that your means of assessing body composition is probably not even remotely accurate.

Behemoth
12-20-2010, 02:20 PM
No I did! It's not a "thinks".

I'd like to see your dunk test printouts.


So not only are you as big as some of the biggest natural bodybuilders in history (considering LBM numbers for you height, weight and bf%), you accomplished this feat pretty much by accident? Sort of in your spare time? And not only this, you are still able to pack on muscle by the fistful WHILE losing bodyfat?

This is a strictly moderated site, so all I can say is congratulations on your stellar gains and good luck in the future. Keep us up to date.

Please enjoy some of my training music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw

lol




I was trying to be polite, but I'm sure you knew that.

I know that you knew better and were being polite, yes.

I simply don't have a lot of patience with people spewing out ridiculous lbm gain claims when they have little comprehension of how much muscle a couple dry pounds actually is.

RichMcGuire
12-20-2010, 02:25 PM
There are no "clean" or "dirty" foods. That whole terminology is nonsense. There are only foods with certain micro/macro nutrient profiles. And the GI is a horrible thing to go by because a higher GI doesn't always equate to a higher insulin index.

Other than that, I think it's been summed up rather well. A caloric surplus always leads to an eventual fat gain over time. The amount of Calories over maintenance and the macro nutrient breakdowns are going to be a big factor in how much fat is gained. Of course, genetics are always going to be a big factor too..especially someone's P-ratio.

Dan Fanelli
12-20-2010, 02:47 PM
Body composition is MUCH more complicated than calories in vs. Calories out. Bulking and cutting isn't always required and a true recomp is very possible.

r2473
12-20-2010, 04:00 PM
..........

Songsangnim
12-20-2010, 05:21 PM
There is no law of physics that mentions anything about fat. This is ABSOLUTELY possible, if the calorie balance goes up he'll gain WEIGHT. This has nothing to do with fat.....

Of course you will gain weight...but you should read more carefully.
With a consistent caloric surplus over time you will eventually gain some fat. It is not remotely possible to absolutely ensure that every single individual ounce you gain is muscle.

Songsangnim
12-20-2010, 05:36 PM
You're mistaking physics and biology.


We have a pretty good understanding of physics (thermodynamics) -> Eat a surplus (maintenance btw, is not a stable line that is equal for everyone) and you will gain weight.

We still don't have a very good understanding of Biology -> will you gain fat or muscle? Depends on genes, diet, training, etc... There was a guy here who stayed at 165lbs in 3 months, but shredded, which would imply he lost fat and gained muscle...


No. You are mistaken as to what I was saying.

Over enough time given a consistent caloric surplus you will gain weight. Assuming that one trains hard and consistently not all of that weight gain will be fat. In fact a good majority of it could well be muscle. Now let's say somebody gains 80 lbs over 5-6 years and all naturally. He looks very good and is very muscular. Obviously the vast majority of that gain was muscle. But some of it would be fat. And this holds true regardless of genes, diet and training.

Now getting back to the original topic. Eating a caloric surplus is not going to help one maintain a consistent body weight or lose fat which is what the trainer claimed and what I took issue with.

If you or anyone for that matter disagrees I would like to see (A) a reasoned explanation of how eating more than you need for maintenance (including workouts) does this and (B) studies published in a peer-reviewed journal that back up said claim.

Bosch232
12-21-2010, 05:01 AM
This is a strictly moderated site, so all I can say is congratulations on your stellar gains and good luck in the future. Keep us up to date.

Please enjoy some of my training music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw


That actually did make me laugh out loud. :clown:


OK, back to the original posted question....

Dan Fanelli
12-21-2010, 07:01 AM
Of course you will gain weight...but you should read more carefully.
With a consistent caloric surplus over time you will eventually gain some fat. It is not remotely possible to absolutely ensure that every single individual ounce you gain is muscle.

Your argument is irrelevant. Nobody ever said anything about maintaining a constant surplus over years. Obviously if you keep increasing calories, you'll keep gaining weight. And since stored protein and carbs are somewhat finite, fat will have to increase.

The trainer NEVER said, eat in a surplus for the rest of your life.

And although hypothetical examples are meaningless, here is one for you. An individual goes into his trainer. He's been doing some cardio a few times a week, but thats it. He eats about 2500 kcals a day, and it 150lbs at 30% BF. The trainer has him eating 3000kcals a day and puts him on HCT-12. Over the next 2 years, he maintains this diet for the most part and gets up to 190lbs at 12% BF. His BF% and actual amount of BF decreased

He STARTED with a fairly large surplus, but eventually it wasn't a surplus, and now 3000kcals is about maintanence for his current situation.

Behemoth
12-21-2010, 08:16 AM
Dan how long have you been training and why aren't you a pro with your knowledge of how to increase 31.1lbs of lbm/year while simultaneously decreasing bodyfat?

Dan Fanelli
12-21-2010, 08:24 AM
dan how long have you been training and why aren't you a pro with your knowledge of how to increase 31.1lbs of lbm/year while simultaneously decreasing bodyfat?

lolz!!!!

Behemoth
12-21-2010, 09:19 AM
That's what I thought too.

Songsangnim
12-21-2010, 06:00 PM
Your argument is irrelevant. Nobody ever said anything about maintaining a constant surplus over years. Obviously if you keep increasing calories, you'll keep gaining weight. And since stored protein and carbs are somewhat finite, fat will have to increase.

The trainer NEVER said, eat in a surplus for the rest of your life.

And although hypothetical examples are meaningless, here is one for you. An individual goes into his trainer. He's been doing some cardio a few times a week, but thats it. He eats about 2500 kcals a day, and it 150lbs at 30% BF. The trainer has him eating 3000kcals a day and puts him on HCT-12. Over the next 2 years, he maintains this diet for the most part and gets up to 190lbs at 12% BF. His BF% and actual amount of BF decreased

He STARTED with a fairly large surplus, but eventually it wasn't a surplus, and now 3000kcals is about maintanence for his current situation.


Right he started with a fairly large surplus...where do you think that surplus (during the time it was a surplus) goes? It gets stored as fat...meaning in your example that said trainee would get fatter. Also if he's 30% BF to begin with that means that his original diet of 2500 was also surplus as well. If it wasn't surplus he wouldn't be 30% BF.
So he's already eating more calories than he requires to begin with and you think INCREASING that by an additional 20% of calories will get him leaner?

When we talk about hypothetical situations we usually mean situations that could happen in real life...not ones that require the use of black magic or something similar.

Clover
12-21-2010, 06:22 PM
So not only are you as big as some of the biggest natural bodybuilders in history (considering LBM numbers for you height, weight and bf%), you accomplished this feat pretty much by accident? Sort of in your spare time? And not only this, you are still able to pack on muscle by the fistful WHILE losing bodyfat?

This is a strictly moderated site, so all I can say is congratulations on your stellar gains and good luck in the future. Keep us up to date.

Please enjoy some of my training music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw


I LOLed pretty hard at this. Even better than what you could post on another forum.

Dan Fanelli
12-21-2010, 06:27 PM
Right he started with a fairly large surplus...where do you think that surplus (during the time it was a surplus) goes? It gets stored as fat...meaning in your example that said trainee would get fatter. Also if he's 30% BF to begin with that means that his original diet of 2500 was also surplus as well. If it wasn't surplus he wouldn't be 30% BF.
So he's already eating more calories than he requires to begin with and you think INCREASING that by an additional 20% of calories will get him leaner?

When we talk about hypothetical situations we usually mean situations that could happen in real life...not ones that require the use of black magic or something similar.

Sorry wrong.... You can be eating not enough calories and still be fat.... Just as you can eat a surplus and get leaner....

Songsangnim
12-21-2010, 06:44 PM
Sorry wrong.... You can be eating not enough calories and still be fat.... Just as you can eat a surplus and get leaner....

The only way that one can not eat enough calories and still be fat is by a metabolic disorder. And even so over time that person will lose weight. And if one eats a surplus how can one get leaner (AKA lose weight)?

I don't think "surplus" means what you think it means.

Where does that surplus go? Does it magically fly away on pink unicorns? I've already explained why this does not work. You are challenging the scientific orthodoxy (not to mention empirical evidence on this).

So back up your claims with links and peer-reviewed studies...heck even one will do nicely as long as it is published in a peer-reviewed journal.

joey54
12-21-2010, 09:06 PM
Arguing with Song on most topics is like pissing in the wind, but I am getting a kick out of reading this.

Holto
12-22-2010, 10:06 AM
You can be eating not enough calories and still be fat

In this hypothetical situation is the subject losing weight?

Dan Fanelli
12-22-2010, 11:33 AM
In this hypothetical situation is the subject losing weight?

Weight is irrelevant In this situation

Dan Fanelli
12-22-2010, 11:42 AM
And if one eats a surplus how can one get leaner (AKA lose weight)?

journal.


You still aren't getting it. Leaner does not equal less weight, it equals less fat. Just as fatter doesn't equal more weight, it equals more fat. Calories and bodycomposition are related, but that is it.

There are plenty of people who are underweight yet overfat. What do you propose they do, cut calories?

Behemoth
12-22-2010, 11:48 AM
Weight is irrelevant In this situation

Lol, anything but. I knew where holto was going with that question but since you answered weight being irrelevant his hypothetical instance he was about to provide to possibly slightly justify "you can be eating not enough calories and still be fat" just went out the window.

Behemoth
12-22-2010, 11:54 AM
You still aren't getting it. Leaner does not equal less weight, it equals less fat. Just as fatter doesn't equal more weight, it equals more fat. Calories and bodycomposition are related, but that is it.

There are plenty of people who are underweight yet overfat. What do you propose they do, cut calories?

Yes. There are no parameters that says too little muscle is unhealthy. Provided someone is "overfat" they have enough lean mass underneath to be healthy with less bodyfat (provided they don't drop below their optimal bmi).

Dan Fanelli
12-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Yes. There are no parameters that says too little muscle is unhealthy. Provided someone is "overfat" they have enough lean mass underneath to be healthy with less bodyfat (provided they don't drop below their optimal bmi).

That has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

In regards to my previous comment. You can gain or lose fat independently of a gain or loss in weight, hence weight being irrelevant. I may have misspoken to Holto. If someone is eating in a surplus, they WILL gain weight.

Off Road
12-22-2010, 12:08 PM
Dan, I get what you are trying to say...

If you eat excess calories and end up gaining more lean tissue than you do fat, the ratio of muscle to fat will improve.

Behemoth
12-22-2010, 12:44 PM
Dan, I get what you are trying to say...

If you eat excess calories and end up gaining more lean tissue than you do fat, the ratio of muscle to fat will improve.

That's all well and good, but the debate is "losing fat while eating a surplus" which is completely seperate from just increasing your lbm% (or ratio) or decreasing total bf% (or ratio) through eating an surplus of calories by way of adding more lean mass than fat mass.

Dan Fanelli
12-22-2010, 02:41 PM
I think we are getting way too far away from the original question here. More importantly, to the original poster, what is your current height, weight, bf%, activity level/ training background, and diet?

Other things that need to be considered here are: difference between energy storage and fat storage, concept of surplus and deficit, other factors affecting body composition besides energy intake and balance. If people aren't going to acknowledge these factors, then this discussion is worthless.

But let's get the OP back in here

Songsangnim
12-22-2010, 11:42 PM
Okay let's look at what the OP stated the trainer said.

"A personal trainer told me that for a someone doing heavy weight training the amount of calories you eat is not what determines your fat composition."

Obviously this statement is not true. Try doubling your caloric intake and see what happens.

Next:

"He said that you can lift weights and eat a caloric surplus of lean meats and proteins, fruits. nuts, and vegetables,...your weight will stay the same or even increase...but your body fat will decrease."

Everybody here seems to disagree that for someone eating in a surplus the weight will stay the same..so we are all agreed that is wrong as well.

So let's look at the increase. For anyone with any experience, this increase in weight will come as both fat and muscle. It is impossible for anyone to ensure with 100% accuracy that every single ounce of the weight gain was muscle. ( For the purposes of this discussion we are assuming that all these gains are actual tissue gains I'm not even going to get into issues like water retention here which would make the trainer wrong yet again).

Now the ratio of fat to muscle may decrease...but that is not what the trainer said. He said "your bodyfat will decrease". And as I have pointed out unless every single ounce of said tissue gains was muscle then that statement is incorrect.

tom183
12-23-2010, 12:34 AM
eating low calories food is deceasing fats . not only decrease food quantity also start exercise with it

Case closed.