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Bosshogg300
01-25-2011, 05:30 PM
How would you go about working in the repetition method in your training split and does anyone. Apply this method in their training

Ermantroudt
01-25-2011, 05:49 PM
While using a conjugate periodization, I would put the repetition method in after my ME work.

gmen5681
01-25-2011, 05:57 PM
i think it should be more of an "isolation" movement as well. like for after a ME bench session you would do RE with DBs and not a BB. and for what i have read they dont do a whole lot of RE work for lower body, i could be wrong and maybe travis could chime in and shed more light on the subject.

joey54
01-25-2011, 06:19 PM
Are you asking about the repetition method or repeated effort?

Because like the guys above stated, and when Travis chimes in, that is a pretty simple concept. Pick some movements after your main one and rep out. When talking with Travis a little while ago he indicated to perform more volume on your DE days as well. Again, when he responds, he can certainly expand much more than most of us on the board.

Bosshogg300
01-25-2011, 06:30 PM
i am talking about reptition method and i am just curious bout it because i would do something along the lines you explained joey but i would do it on DE bench days, after i completed my speed bench i would do 3 sets of DB press 10 reps

joey54
01-25-2011, 06:57 PM
Ok, just wanted to clarify. Sometimes people get the two confused, not implying you did. More for my sake. Yeah, seems to be a good start. Might want more volume. Are you also hitting your rear delts, tris and lats? Again, really hope Travis sees this and he can take over. I don't feel very comfortable giving anymore input than I have since we have more qualified members.

4g64fiero
01-25-2011, 07:33 PM
I always wondered this too and its the main thing that keeps me from switching to westside training altogether as I dont fully understand the principles involved.

joey54
01-25-2011, 08:04 PM
I always wondered this too and its the main thing that keeps me from switching to westside training altogether as I dont fully understand the principles involved.

Do you have the book of methods?

Bosshogg300
01-25-2011, 09:41 PM
Yea I hit delts,tri's, and lats

Dan Fanelli
01-25-2011, 10:22 PM
I'd like to hear Travis and some of the Westside guys chime in on this, because Ive seen the term "RE" used to be very different things.

joey54
01-26-2011, 04:45 AM
Getting that post count up Dan.

Dan Fanelli
01-26-2011, 06:18 AM
Getting that post count up Dan.

What do yo mean by this?

Bosshogg300
01-26-2011, 06:33 AM
Yea I would like to hear Travis or any of the weatside guys explain as well

AdamBAG
01-26-2011, 08:08 AM
There was a thread on this exact topic recently, but I can't find it now. I know that Travis and some other addressed this exact question.

Dan Fanelli
01-26-2011, 09:13 AM
Ok, I decided to do a bit of research, because I was still confused on this topic. The problem is, these terms do not have standard meanings. Depending who you talk to, the "repetition effort method", "repeated effort method", or "RE method" can be VERY different things.

Louie in the Book of Methods
He states that the "repeated effort method" is best done with TIMED, SLOW reps in the 20-30% range. He recommends about 6-10 reps per minute, and goes anywhere from 1-8 minutes or so depending on the exercise and equipment used. He also recommends two different intensities (one for ME day, and one for DE day). DE day happens to be heavier in this case. As an ex: he states on DB press, when he could do 100's for 40 seconds, he was able to do 30's for 1:30.

Wendler from various articles
He calls it the "repeated effort method" and "repetition effort method". For him, this is just "repetition work" and has many different protocols.
Exs:
3x max reps (50-60%)
3x10
5x5
4x12
etc. etc.
Probably most of these are in the 40-75% range and TO FAILURE OR NEAR FAILURE

Travis on this site
http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?134045-Repetition-Effort&highlight=repetition
"At Westside we never use the RE for bench

Repetition method is not just doing reps, it's several sets of doubles or triples well into the 85-90% range. Least thats the way we define it lol.

So no, using the RE method (by our definition mind you) would not be productive for accessory work. "

Other sources, including Zatsiorsky, and Dave Tate

"Repetition effort method" is performing set(s) with a submaximal weight to failure. The last reps are the most important. According to Tate, in a set of 10-12, "first eight reps are just primers to get you to the last three or four"

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So the problem here seems to be definitions. Almost all sources made various claims about the RE methods. Strength, Size, and recovery were all part of these claims. Louie Simmons' explanation was the most different from the others, and thus there needs to be some clarification made between his definition of RE methods, and everyone else's. Also, Travis' definition was very different as well. Probably most of these guys dont care too much about definitions as long as they know what its used for and how to do it though.

Since Zatsiorsky's definition is probably the most widely known and in text books, I think that should be the Repetition method, or Repeated effort method.

Louie's definition might be more "Lactate Training" or "Timed Reppetition Method" or something like that.

Wendler's might be easy to call "hypertrophy work" but im sure there are various reasons why one might not want to call it that.


What do you guys think? Lets agree on some terms and definitions to avoid future confusion.

gmen5681
01-26-2011, 09:21 AM
that was an awesome post Dan. im sure you just helped a ton of people out now and in the future.

KoSh
01-26-2011, 10:06 AM
Keep in mind that DeFranco uses the RE method in his WS4SB program instead of DE Bench as well... Even though traditionally WS doesn't use it for bench.

Good post there, Dan.

NickAus
01-26-2011, 08:41 PM
It's just rep work, like building muscle type work 4x15 for example, not speed and not max effort.

Pretty simple.

Bosshogg300
01-26-2011, 09:47 PM
Nickaus simply put..and good post dan

Travis Bell
01-27-2011, 03:25 AM
Dan,

You can't really specifically define it overall.

When in reference to the squat, it has been used at Westside more into the 85% range like I stated earlier

When in reference to accessory work (like what you found in Louies book) then you're looking at the 20-30% stuff.

BloodandThunder
01-27-2011, 08:18 AM
Not a direct WS guy like Travis, but I typically denote the following in my logs so when I look back, I know the difference.

I like to call non-failure, non-ME or DE work, supramaximal effort (SE). I like to use this instead of ME days when I'm beat up, but want to get in a good amount of form work on a competition exercise. I program it by Prilepin's table and don't go above 90-95%. I typically do this for squatting and deadlifting.

If I go to failure (say primary work is dumbbell work til failure (less than 15 reps)), I call that RE effort. I use this method in place of a DE work for a cycle typically after a meet when I want to just focus on hypertrophy. OR every fourth week in a four week macrocycle to deload from speed bench.

Louie's definition, or example you gave Dan, is kind of like lactic acid training. I sometimes would do the DB pressing on a deload week instead of my ME work. It does work well. It'll typically get the blood pumping and have you ready to hit PR's the following week.

What you call something isn't exactly important. Just make sure you know the difference and keep it consistent with your training, that's all.

Travis Bell
01-27-2011, 08:36 AM
To be somewhat technical (although it doesn't change the effectiveness of what you described)

Going to failure is indeed max effort. That's the maximum amount of reps you can get with that given weight. It's a different slant on ME, but it still is none the less.

When I first started at Westside I misunderstood Lou to say that I needed to rep 225 to failure every week. Well as time went on I was getting less and less and less reps with 225. Instead it was just supposed to be high reps like 15 or 20.

I was taxing my body far beyond what it needed to be and it was a negative effect (read CNS here, but lets not go down that thread again lol)

joey54
01-27-2011, 08:43 AM
What you call something isn't exactly important. Just make sure you know the difference and keep it consistent with your training, that's all.

Thumbs up to that.

Dan Fanelli
01-27-2011, 04:37 PM
Travis,

Do any of the guys still do the RE stuff in the 20-30% range with slow reps (~ 6/min) for 3-7 mins?

Dan Fanelli
01-27-2011, 05:03 PM
I have an additional question I keep forgetting to ask about the RE methods metnioned above.

It seems as if the aim of the different RE methods is mainly hypertrophy. If an individual is not going to be gaining weight, then should they start to minimize the amount of RE work they do?

RE work would still be used right? But the volume would need to be cut back, and maybe the frequency of training to failure?

I know this has been discussed, but im still unclear on this one.

Travis Bell
01-27-2011, 07:22 PM
Travis,

Do any of the guys still do the RE stuff in the 20-30% range with slow reps (~ 6/min) for 3-7 mins?

I can't speak for the rest of the team because I'm not there every day (just wednsdays)

I occasionly do this (we call it timed bench) with very light weights for 3-4min. It's excruciating but great for blood flow


I have an additional question I keep forgetting to ask about the RE methods metnioned above.

It seems as if the aim of the different RE methods is mainly hypertrophy. If an individual is not going to be gaining weight, then should they start to minimize the amount of RE work they do?

RE work would still be used right? But the volume would need to be cut back, and maybe the frequency of training to failure?

I know this has been discussed, but im still unclear on this one.


Depends on the type of RE we are talking about here lol.

But at this point, I think weight gain would be a minimal concern. That's going to be different for each individual I suppose, but I've got all my powerlifting clients doing the same accessory stuff that I do and nobody has put on 25lbs in 6 months

Dan Fanelli
01-27-2011, 07:31 PM
Thanks for those answers Travis :)