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Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 04:31 AM
Hi all.

I started weigt lifting again after about a year and a half break about 12-13 weeks ago.
When I started out i had droped alot of weight since i lifted before and was down to 188 pounds.
I now weigh 215-220 pounds :confused: I have gotten significaly stronger and am up to my previous best after only 13 weeks! I have gained some fat with all that eating and am having problems fitting in to my cloths now :) so i'm thinking about cutting down my calories! I have 2 questions that i'd like to ask you guys. Is my fat gaining somhow responsably for my huge increas in strength or would i have accomplished that with a clean bulking diet as well? (I'm doing 5x5 madcow by the way.)

Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?
I have probably done the same mistake i useually do, expected to much too fast :(

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 07:57 AM
If a picture would help, i can easily provide one...

dechrist
02-13-2011, 08:01 AM
A picture would help but, I really wanted to say your name is awesome.

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 08:28 AM
A picture would help but, I really wanted to say your name is awesome.

Thanks, i appreciate it. God of thunder was occupied, i guess you like that even more since you're a Kiss fan :)

dechrist
02-13-2011, 08:32 AM
It's true i'm a huge KISS fan. Im known as the KISS lifter at my gym haha.

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 08:41 AM
It's true i'm a huge KISS fan. Im known as the KISS lifter at my gym haha.

Awesome! I am a huge rock and roll fan my self, i'll post some pictures in a few hours :)

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 01:57 PM
Before i started

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 01:59 PM
Sorry, the first one is after i started, this os before

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 02:00 PM
and one from the back.

dechrist
02-13-2011, 02:25 PM
whats your diet looking like?

RichMcGuire
02-13-2011, 02:38 PM
Hi all.

I started weigt lifting again after about a year and a half break about 12-13 weeks ago.
When I started out i had droped alot of weight since i lifted before and was down to 188 pounds.
I now weigh 215-220 pounds :confused: I have gotten significaly stronger and am up to my previous best after only 13 weeks! I have gained some fat with all that eating and am having problems fitting in to my cloths now :) so i'm thinking about cutting down my calories! I have 2 questions that i'd like to ask you guys. Is my fat gaining somhow responsably for my huge increas in strength or would i have accomplished that with a clean bulking diet as well? (I'm doing 5x5 madcow by the way.)

Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?
I have probably done the same mistake i useually do, expected to much too fast :(

So, in 13 weeks you went from 188 to 220? Thats 32 lbs and about a gain of 2.46 lbs a week. No wonder you put on more fat. Most people that put on 1 lb a week can still expect half of it to be fat under most circumstances. I guess yours could be different since you had a 1 1/2 break..but still, 2 1/2 lbs a week is way too much.

You probably wont gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. So youll have to decide what you care about. If you dont care about looking like a slob, then keep eating and getting stronger. You can cut fat off later. If you do care about what you look like, cut some fat now and then bulk slower next time.

Goatofthunder
02-13-2011, 02:52 PM
whats your diet looking like?

I eat about 100 gr oats along with a scoop of protein and 300 ml milk for breakfest.
I eat gainer 2 times a day and useually a small pizza in between, i work at a pizza place :(
I eat a heavy dinner and before i go to bed i eat 3-4 raw eggs.-t
i haveīnt been counting kcal, just eating alot since i thought my work would keep me burning alot of kcal.
i actually thought this was going allrigt until recently, when i saw i was adding too much fat.

Im gona cut down now and bulk again when i have lost some of that fat.

4g64fiero
02-13-2011, 04:18 PM
There is no point in eating raw eggs. The protein is actually better denatured (occurs during cooking).

Personally, I would cut. Although I am bit of a hippocrite on the matter hahaha.

Sensei
02-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Is my fat gaining somhow responsably for my huge increas in strength or would i have accomplished that with a clean bulking diet as well? (I'm doing 5x5 madcow by the way.)
Gaining weight will help you move heavy weights, period.

Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?
I have probably done the same mistake i useually do, expected to much too fast :(
Keep training hard. Just eat clean. Learn to use a slow cooker. You'll feel better. You'll be healthier. You'll get leaner. I hate to see young people throw away all of their gains on a cut.

RichMcGuire
02-13-2011, 08:02 PM
^

People don't throw away their gains. People just have different goals.. aka. bodybuilding for composition. And if a cut is done correctly, he wouldnt lose strength anyways.

There is no such thing as eating clean. That term is complely absurd. If he is going to get leaner, he will indeed be in a deficit of Calories anyways which really would be a "cut" even if it is only losing a 1lb every week or so. So that comment seemed a bit odd to me. "Don't cut - but get leaner" huh?

What I dont like is seeing people do a dreamer bulk(look it up) and adding large amounts of unneeded fat. Your body can only add so much muscle at a given time. Getting stupidly fat gives you less time where you can gain in the long run.

Codeguru
02-14-2011, 02:56 AM
Hi all.

I started weigt lifting again after about a year and a half break about 12-13 weeks ago.
When I started out i had droped alot of weight since i lifted before and was down to 188 pounds.
I now weigh 215-220 pounds :confused: I have gotten significaly stronger and am up to my previous best after only 13 weeks! I have gained some fat with all that eating and am having problems fitting in to my cloths now :) so i'm thinking about cutting down my calories! I have 2 questions that i'd like to ask you guys. Is my fat gaining somhow responsably for my huge increas in strength or would i have accomplished that with a clean bulking diet as well? (I'm doing 5x5 madcow by the way.)

Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?
I have probably done the same mistake i useually do, expected to much too fast :(

If you've gotten a lot stronger, you probably increased your muscle mass a good amount, so just slice off a few hundred calories a day and see where that gets you. That's what is working for me, I'm gaining strength at a constant rate now and my fat is kept in check, and I'm eating a crap load more than I was. I'm hoping there is a point at which my muscles will pop out so much it will make the amount of fat I have to carry to progress look invisible, but I guess that's down the road a bit. Although it's already started to look that way quite a bit...

Codeguru

Goatofthunder
02-14-2011, 06:07 AM
There is no point in eating raw eggs. The protein is actually better denatured (occurs during cooking).

Personally, I would cut. Although I am bit of a hippocrite on the matter hahaha.

http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=268


I thought so too, is that not just a theory?

Goatofthunder
02-14-2011, 06:13 AM
If you've gotten a lot stronger, you probably increased your muscle mass a good amount, so just slice off a few hundred calories a day and see where that gets you. That's what is working for me, I'm gaining strength at a constant rate now and my fat is kept in check, and I'm eating a crap load more than I was. I'm hoping there is a point at which my muscles will pop out so much it will make the amount of fat I have to carry to progress look invisible, but I guess that's down the road a bit. Although it's already started to look that way quite a bit...

Codeguru

i have increased the big 3 by this.

Bench 155 x5 to 227x5
Squat 198x5 to 352x5
Dead 220x5 to 352x5

I feel like that is a decent gain in strength so i hop ei have packed a decena amount of muscle under that layer of fat...

RichMcGuire
02-14-2011, 07:22 AM
i have increased the big 3 by this.

Bench 155 x5 to 227x5
Squat 198x5 to 352x5
Dead 220x5 to 352x5

I feel like that is a decent gain in strength so i hop ei have packed a decena amount of muscle under that layer of fat...

Those could be neurological gains as well. You can get stronger without increasing muscle mass. Increasing muscle mass has way more to do with than simply increasing your bench or squat. Genetics, fiber typing, etc all come into play. Realisticially, you've probably gained less than 10 lbs of actual muscle since youve only been at it for 13 weeks. The only thing you can force feed are your fat cells which will baloon up in size and eventually go through hyperplasia and increase in number.

Goatofthunder
02-14-2011, 07:32 AM
Do you have a suggestion of a good cutting program?
Is the 5x5 madcow a good one?
I forgot to tell you about my Pre/ost workout meals.

Pre 100 gr of gainer along with 300 ml skim milki
45 gr protein, 70 gra carbs, of witch 19 gr are sugars. less then 5 gr fat.

Post 48 gr protein and 90-100 gr dextrose.

Sensei
02-14-2011, 09:15 AM
^

People don't throw away their gains. People just have different goals.. aka. bodybuilding for composition. And if a cut is done correctly, he wouldnt lose strength anyways.Rich,
I'm aware of that. If the OP cares about strength as his original post indicates, that is what I am talking about.


There is no such thing as eating clean. That term is complely absurd. If he is going to get leaner, he will indeed be in a deficit of Calories anyways which really would be a "cut" even if it is only losing a 1lb every week or so. So that comment seemed a bit odd to me. "Don't cut - but get leaner" huh?Rich,
What is absurd about telling someone to "eat clean"? Apparently you've never heard anyone say this to mean eliminate junk from their diet?

You've been around forums long enough to know that a lot of kids follow a roller-coaster of bulking and cutting and their training weights are all over the place. I'm not recommending minutiae - I'm giving general advice, and most people who can be honest about "eating clean" (sorry, I said it again) will be healthier and might even lose a few pounds.
My recommendations for kids will always be to eat more, eat better and train hard. If people don't know what I mean by those three things, I can be more specific.

Raleighwood
02-14-2011, 09:16 AM
" Clean" eating isn't really bull ****... Although some people get fanatical and dogmatic about it.

If you eat whole, unprocessed foods you tend to have less inflammation and more satiation with less calories. That is why you feel better when you eat "clean" and that it is easier to to put lean weight.

To the OP, yes the faster you gain weight, the faster your gains will be. However, you will also gain body fat. If you are concerned about your body comp, taking a slower approach is necessary. You still need to do some heavy lifting, but you can't over do the volume because you won't be able to recover as quickly as if you were significantly overeating.

I'd aim for a .5-2lbs gain in body weight a week. And if you start getting uncomfortably fat, scale it back or do a mini-cut.

Codeguru
02-14-2011, 12:00 PM
Do you have a suggestion of a good cutting program?
Is the 5x5 madcow a good one?
I forgot to tell you about my Pre/ost workout meals.

Pre 100 gr of gainer along with 300 ml skim milki
45 gr protein, 70 gra carbs, of witch 19 gr are sugars. less then 5 gr fat.

Post 48 gr protein and 90-100 gr dextrose.

I'll just suggest one simple thing, cut out something that is mostly carbs. You already have a workout that is a success obviously, and if the same is true for your cardio then all you need is the back off the calories. Instead of changing everything up, just delete 50-70g carbs a day assuming you are eating 300g+ or something. When I cut my daily bananas out of my diet, everything I was doing for fat loss almost instantly started working better. It could easily be that you have an excess of fat or protein too but start with carbs and see what that does with your macro ratio and bodyfat...

Codeguru

PS- Another thing I did was replace my bowl of cereal with some oatmeal. Easily got rid of 40g of carbs a day with about the same amount of calories.

Goatofthunder
02-14-2011, 12:07 PM
I'll just suggest one simple thing, cut out something that is mostly carbs. You already have a workout that is a success obviously, and if the same is true for your cardio then all you need is the back off the calories. Instead of changing everything up, just delete 50-70g carbs a day assuming you are eating 300g+ or something. When I cut my daily bananas out of my diet, everything I was doing for fat loss almost instantly started working better. It could easily be that you have an excess of fat or protein too but start with carbs and see what that does with your macro ratio and bodyfat...

Codeguru

PS- Another thing I did was replace my bowl of cereal with some oatmeal. Easily got rid of 40g :(of carbs a day with about the same amount of calories.

Well ther is defenetly something i can cut out of my daily intake, substitue my pizza with something healthier for example. I am also thinkong about dropping my gainer dose from 100 gr to 70 gr at a time. I havenīt been too picky about what i eat so there is defenetly room cut something out. I also admit to enjoying the occational beer after my work days :tuttut: but itīs never more then one small at a time.
As for cardio, i donīt do any :( might be a good idea to add that to my plan once a week.

Eich would be a better choise, low effort burning or HIIT?

Codeguru
02-14-2011, 12:48 PM
Well ther is defenetly something i can cut out of my daily intake, substitue my pizza with something healthier for example. I am also thinkong about dropping my gainer dose from 100 gr to 70 gr at a time. I havenīt been too picky about what i eat so there is defenetly room cut something out. I also admit to enjoying the occational beer after my work days :tuttut: but itīs never more then one small at a time.
As for cardio, i donīt do any :( might be a good idea to add that to my plan once a week.

Eich would be a better choise, low effort burning or HIIT?

Again I'd suggest a small change and start out with low effort. But maybe at least twice a week. If you're looking for something to try that doesn't take a lot of time, try some 10 minute circuit cardio. Which is simply stringing together a bunch of different exercises (jumping jacks, mountain climbers, squat thrusts, planks, etc.) for around a minute each and not resting a lot in between. Just make sure you build up a good dripping sweat, and 10 minutes should easily accomplish that if you are doing it right and haven't been doing any cardio at all. Any cardio you can stick with is good, but quite frankly every other type of cardio I've tried seems pointless compared to the amount of fat I burn and the low amount of effort I spend doing circuits...

Codeguru

Goatofthunder
02-14-2011, 01:02 PM
Again I'd suggest a small change and start out with low effort. But maybe at least twice a week. If you're looking for something to try that doesn't take a lot of time, try some 10 minute circuit cardio. Which is simply stringing together a bunch of different exercises (jumping jacks, mountain climbers, squat thrusts, planks, etc.) for around a minute each and not resting a lot in between. Just make sure you build up a good dripping sweat, and 10 minutes should easily accomplish that if you are doing it right and haven't been doing any cardio at all. Any cardio you can stick with is good, but quite frankly every other type of cardio I've tried seems pointless compared to the amount of fat I burn and the low amount of effort I spend doing circuits...

Codeguru

Some of these excarsices i havenīt heard off
You must be talking about very low weight then! and how many reps or at what pase?
This sounds alot more interesting then the ski machine or the treat mill!

Could i do this on my lifting days or should i make room for them on my "off days"?

Codeguru
02-14-2011, 03:17 PM
Some of these excarsices i havenīt heard off
You must be talking about very low weight then! and how many reps or at what pase?
This sounds alot more interesting then the ski machine or the treat mill!

Could i do this on my lifting days or should i make room for them on my "off days"?

I do them on off days, or when I just have a lot of energy to burn after workouts but I try to keep it light then. The way I do them is like 60 mountain climbers, you basically have your hands and feet on the floor and you alternate which leg to put forward at a fast pace, like you are climbing up a steep hill. And planks are just holding yourself up like in pushup position but your elbows are on the floor, so your abs get the entire stress of keeping you up. But like I said just do how many of any certain cardio exercise you can get done in a minute then move on without resting (after 4 or 5 of them a short break is probably a good idea), you can alter it for more reps if you feel like it. It is a lot more interesting than walking or running for 30 minutes or more and from what I can see it's more effective. You should search around for different exercises you like and that hit as many muscle groups as possible so you really exhaust your entire body and work up a good sweat...

Codeguru

RichMcGuire
02-14-2011, 07:24 PM
Rich,
I'm aware of that. If the OP cares about strength as his original post indicates, that is what I am talking about.

Rich,
What is absurd about telling someone to "eat clean"? Apparently you've never heard anyone say this to mean eliminate junk from their diet?.

Well, he said "Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?" This would imply he wants to drop some fat..If ALL he cared about was strength, I doubt hed care about body fat. As you said, weight moves weight.

I have heard of the term. But its also not a correct term. Have you ever heard of people saying they want to "tone" up when what they mean is lose body fat? Exactly.


You've been around forums long enough to know that a lot of kids follow a roller-coaster of bulking and cutting and their training weights are all over the place. I'm not recommending minutiae - I'm giving general advice, and most people who can be honest about "eating clean" (sorry, I said it again) will be healthier and might even lose a few pounds.
My recommendations for kids will always be to eat more, eat better and train hard. If people don't know what I mean by those three things, I can be more specific.


This is exactly why I was suggesting he lose some body fat first. He doesnt need to gain stupid amounts of fat and ruin things in the long run. "Eating clean" to lose a few lbs is only masking the fact that total Calories would be reduced..hence, a "cut" which would not be him throwing away his results. So we can both agree that losing a few lbs is a good idea.






" Clean" eating isn't really bull ****... Although some people get fanatical and dogmatic about it.

If you eat whole, unprocessed foods you tend to have less inflammation and more satiation with less calories. That is why you feel better when you eat "clean" and that it is easier to to put lean weight.

Fast food has the same hormonal effects as these so called "clean foods" when macro nutrient composition is the same. If there is less inflammation then thats going to be based on an individual nutrient profile of a specific food. If you can post some studies that all "clean foods" (i doubt any academic study will be using that term though) do this, I'd like to see them.

As you hinted at, putting on more lean weight has more to do with TOTAL Calories above maintanance and macro nutrient composition than anything else. If things fit in these parameters, it doesnt matter where you get your food sources. Other than that, someones P-ratio is going to be a big determining factor on where Calories go. So individual cases will always be subjective.

RichMcGuire
02-14-2011, 07:39 PM
Some of these excarsices i havenīt heard off
You must be talking about very low weight then! and how many reps or at what pase?
This sounds alot more interesting then the ski machine or the treat mill!

Could i do this on my lifting days or should i make room for them on my "off days"?

You'd do so much better to just cut your volume a little and sub out some lower Calorie food choices. i.e a chicken breast with green beans and a dinner role will have less Calories than a pizza.

Sensei
02-15-2011, 06:11 AM
Well, he said "Can i expect to keep up with a program like that and still lose some fat and hopefully gain some muscles?" This would imply he wants to drop some fat..If ALL he cared about was strength, I doubt hed care about body fat. As you said, weight moves weight.

I have heard of the term. But its also not a correct term. Have you ever heard of people saying they want to "tone" up when what they mean is lose body fat? Exactly.




This is exactly why I was suggesting he lose some body fat first. He doesnt need to gain stupid amounts of fat and ruin things in the long run. "Eating clean" to lose a few lbs is only masking the fact that total Calories would be reduced..hence, a "cut" which would not be him throwing away his results. So we can both agree that losing a few lbs is a good idea.

Fast food has the same hormonal effects as these so called "clean foods" when macro nutrient composition is the same. If there is less inflammation then thats going to be based on an individual nutrient profile of a specific food. If you can post some studies that all "clean foods" (i doubt any academic study will be using that term though) do this, I'd like to see them.

As you hinted at, putting on more lean weight has more to do with TOTAL Calories above maintanance and macro nutrient composition than anything else. If things fit in these parameters, it doesnt matter where you get your food sources. Other than that, someones P-ratio is going to be a big determining factor on where Calories go. So individual cases will always be subjective.
Jeebus Rich I'm glad you've figured everything out in your decades of training experience. Fwiw, it's not "masking" anything. Telling the kid to cut out pizza and eat chicken breasts with some greens is the same thing as telling him to "eat clean". No, I'm not telling him to cut calories - there is a difference however subtle it may be. You can continue on about "nutrient profiles", "nutrient composition", "P-ratio", etc and nitpick anyone who you don't agree with, or you can give the kid some useful advice.

Raleighwood
02-15-2011, 07:55 AM
Fast food has the same hormonal effects as these so called "clean foods" when macro nutrient composition is the same. If there is less inflammation then thats going to be based on an individual nutrient profile of a specific food. If you can post some studies that all "clean foods" (i doubt any academic study will be using that term though) do this, I'd like to see them.

As you hinted at, putting on more lean weight has more to do with TOTAL Calories above maintanance and macro nutrient composition than anything else. If things fit in these parameters, it doesnt matter where you get your food sources. Other than that, someones P-ratio is going to be a big determining factor on where Calories go. So individual cases will always be subjective.

Rich, you are changing the circumstances to make your argument favorable.

The bottom line is fast food, and "dirty foods", do not have the same macro-nutrient profiles. Furthermore, they also are pumped full of sugar, salt and fat and chemically engineered to taste delicious and borderline addicting. Fiber is reduced. And the fat quality is crap (see: trans-fats).

All those things combined make "dirty" foods inferior to "clean" when micro-nutrient profile, satiation and general well being is being considered.

As far as weight gain/loss is concerned, yes it does boil down to calories in/out. But that is a very myopic view. You need to consider the whole picture without skewing things by comparing "when macro-nutrient composition is the same".

4g64fiero
02-15-2011, 08:49 AM
http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=268


I thought so too, is that not just a theory?

Thats not even a theory. Thats a sells pitch. The only reference it gives is from the LA times completely out of context.

I dont know about you, but I dont see a reason to listen to anything the LA times says when it comes to health.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Jeebus Rich I'm glad you've figured everything out in your decades of training experience. Fwiw, it's not "masking" anything. Telling the kid to cut out pizza and eat chicken breasts with some greens is the same thing as telling him to "eat clean". No, I'm not telling him to cut calories - there is a difference however subtle it may be. You can continue on about "nutrient profiles", "nutrient composition", "P-ratio", etc and nitpick anyone who you don't agree with, or you can give the kid some useful advice.


You'd do so much better to just cut your volume a little and sub out some lower Calorie food choices. i.e a chicken breast with green beans and a dinner role will have less Calories than a pizza.

It's almost as if I said this. Oh wait, I did. And it doesnt take decades or centuries or whatever term you want to use to figure out that what you're suggesting and what I'm suggesting actually is cutting Calories. Jeebus.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 01:39 PM
Oh boy, these diet threads dont go too well.

OP, it looks like you put on a ton of weight in only about 13 weeks. Yes, a lot of this is going to be fat. But you did also get stronger. You have a few options. You could cut back calories, and eat "cleaner" and try to cut down on fat while minimizing muscle losses. This is the method most people use, but I wouldn't recommend it. You'll probably end up pretty close to where you started but with a bit more muscle AND a bit more fat.

Instead, "clean things up a bit". Nothing drastic here, but you dont need the weight gainers and pizzas everyday (if thats what you are doing). DONT cut calories a bunch. If anything a small decrease in calories may be ok, but I wouldn't worry about it. I would try to keep eating around the same amount but cut out some of the junk.

Stick with the training program. Im guessing you still have gains to be made from your "bulk" and i'd try to keep the momentum up. You might have to cut back on the volume a bit, but just keep trying to get stronger on those lifts. THIS NEVER HURTS.

Add in some LOW intensity cardio. Walking a couple of times a week fasted works pretty well if you can do it.

And lastly, up your protein intake. THIS NEVER HURTS EITHER.

More protein
Less junk
Keep getting stronger
Do a little bit of cardio.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 01:40 PM
Rich, you are changing the circumstances to make your argument favorable.

The bottom line is fast food, and "dirty foods", do not have the same macro-nutrient profiles. Furthermore, they also are pumped full of sugar, salt and fat and chemically engineered to taste delicious and borderline addicting. Fiber is reduced. And the fat quality is crap (see: trans-fats).

All those things combined make "dirty" foods inferior to "clean" when micro-nutrient profile, satiation and general well being is being considered.

As far as weight gain/loss is concerned, yes it does boil down to calories in/out. But that is a very myopic view. You need to consider the whole picture without skewing things by comparing "when macro-nutrient composition is the same".

They dont ALWAYS have the same macro nutrient profiles but they can be fit into a days worth of macros quite easily. Its almost like youre comparing a days worth of fast food to a days worth of "clean" foods.


You need to consider the whole picture without skewing things by comparing "when macro-nutrient composition is the same".

I guess I'd say the same thing to you. Having some fast food that fits into a macro nutrient compoition at the end of the day is just fine. And many fast foods dont even have trans fats anymore so thats not even worth mentioning.

Besides those obvious points, there are many "clean" made meals that do indeed have similar content as a fast food meal. Since you havent given me any of those studies I asked for earlier, I'll give you this:

Fast food meal: A Big Mac, french fries and root beer sweetened with high fructose corn syrup purchased at the restaurant itself.

Organic beef meal: this meal used certified organic rangefed ground beef; cheddar cheese; hamburger bun made with unbleached all purpose naturally white flour, non-iodized salt, non-fat powdered milk, natural yeast, canola oil, and granulated sugar; sauce made from canola mayonnaise and organic ketchup; organic lettuce, onion and dill pickles; French fries made from organic potatoes and fried in pure pressed canola oil; and root beer made with cane sugar.

Organic turkey meal: this consisted of a turkey sandwich made from sliced, roasted free-range turkey breast with no antibiotics or artificial growth stimulants; cheddar cheese; 60% whole wheat bread made with whole wheat and unbleached all-purpose naturally white flours, non-iodized salt, non-fat powdered milk, yeast, vital wheat gluten, canola oil, and granulated sugar; pure pressed canola oil and canola mayonnaise, stone ground mustard; organic lettuce; accompanied by a granola made with Blue Diamond whole natural almonds, Nature’s path organic multigrain oatbrain flakes, wholesome sweeteners evaporated cane juice, Spectrum Naturals pure pressed canola oil, clover honey, Sonoma organically grown raisins and dried apples. The beverage was an organic orange juice.

Fast food: Calories = 1044 Protein = 28.2 Carbohydrates = 151 Fat = 53
Organic beef: Calories = 1154 Protein = 28 Carbohydrates = 163 Fat = 60.2
Organic Turkey: Calories = 1260 Protein = 34 Carbohydrates = 170 Fat = 49

Bray GA et. al. Hormonal Responses to a Fast-Food Meal Compared with Nutritionally Comparable Meals of Different Composition. Ann Nutr Metab. 2007 May 29;51(2):163-171

This is off of br.

I'd say those are fairly clean meals. Everything is natural. I imagine some people will whine about how "no clean meals have that many calories though!!!!" And to that I say, this is exactly why no one can CLEARLY define a "clean meal".

4g64fiero
02-15-2011, 02:07 PM
Fast food is fine. Just stay away from fries if your counting calories.

Thats as complicated as this needs to get.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Oh boy, these diet threads dont go too well.

As long as no one takes anything personal I think they go a long way to understanding different views :)

Sensei
02-15-2011, 02:49 PM
As long as no one takes anything personal I think they go a long way to understanding different views :)
Rich,
You replied to my post specifically and I responded. I'm sure in real life you're a cool guy and we'd get along. But, in real life or online, as a general rule, I take people being douches personally.

Do you need a study to prove that eating fast food is worse for you than eating "clean"? You need clearly defined parameters? Really?

The kid's gained over a hundred pounds on his squat and dead, almost a hundred on his bench. I think that's pretty damn good. For a kid like this, who is making great progress, my advice is sound - IMO, he should not be obsessing over calories. Eating clean may or may not mean eating less calories. It will take time, but he doesn't need to lose weight in order to change body composition.

4g64fiero
02-15-2011, 02:54 PM
Rich,
You replied to my post specifically and I responded. I'm sure in real life you're a cool guy and we'd get along. But, in real life or online, as a general rule, I take people being douches personally.

Do you need a study to prove that eating fast food is worse for you than eating "clean"? You need clearly defined parameters? Really?

The kid's gained over a hundred pounds on his squat and dead, almost a hundred on his bench. I think that's pretty damn good. For a kid like this, who is making great progress, my advice is sound - IMO, he should not be obsessing over calories. Eating clean may or may not mean eating less calories. It will take time, but he doesn't need to lose weight in order to change body composition.
As a relatively new guy around these parts, I would like to know what you are referencing for the claims you are making. Not because I dont believe you, but because its not intuitive.

Are you basing some of this off of Lyle Macdonald's work?

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 02:59 PM
Rich,
You replied to my post specifically and I responded. I'm sure in real life you're a cool guy and we'd get along. But, in real life or online, as a general rule, I take people being douches personally.

Do you need a study to prove that eating fast food is worse for you than eating "clean"? You need clearly defined parameters? Really?

The kid's gained over a hundred pounds on his squat and dead, almost a hundred on his bench. I think that's pretty damn good. For a kid like this, who is making great progress, my advice is sound - IMO, he should not be obsessing over calories. Eating clean may or may not mean eating less calories. It will take time, but he doesn't need to lose weight in order to change body composition.


I agree. Getting fatter would change his composition and he wouldnt be losing weight. This is why I still think he needs to lose some fat (in whatever way he decided) before he thinks about going on another gaining cycle, despite his lifts. He will be better off in the long run in my opinion.

I'm not trying to nit pick anything. And I never say anything personal. I adress posts based on the posts and what they contain, and nothing more. And I do like and respect you as a member. I always have.



Do you need a study to prove that eating fast food is worse for you than eating "clean"? You need clearly defined parameters? Really?.

I never said anything about health. I was talking about body composition just like the OP was so this point is moot.


EDIT: I should add.. maybe theres some confusion of a cut. I'm not suggesting he get contest lean at like 5-8% bf or whatever. I'm just talking like 12-15%. Most people dont typically lose any strength or muscle mass getting to these levels anyways. its below these where you need to be way more careful.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 03:35 PM
A few things im seeing in this thread that led to the arguments between Rich and Sensei. The OP never really gave a specific END goal. He was bulking and just started to notice he was getting a little fat.

Rich's original advice of either continue to gain, and cut later, or cut now, and then bulk up slow seems pretty sound. But an end goal might change this.

And Sensei's advice of just keep training and "clean things up" sorta makes sense as well. I will say though, that consuming "dirty foods" in of itself doesn't make someone fat. Its consuming too much of these foods, too often, and at the wrong times that makes people fat.

The OP gained weight very fast, and has been taking 2 weight gainers a day, and eating pizza daily. This is probalby the problem.

I think in this case both Rich and Sensei's advice is correct. He bulked up fast, eating too much "dirty foods" so he gained some fat. Making some small changes as both of them suggested should allow the OP to continue progress and prevent getting fatter, OR even get leaner.

But I also see that you guys are disagreeing more about the "clean" vs "dirty" foods thing. Its a pretty complex subject and the media has tried to simplify it down to "clean" and "dirty" which made much of the discussion irrelevant. There aren't "clean" foods that by eating them make you muscular. And there aren't "dirty" foods that by eating them make you fat.

Its much more complex, and eating the wrong things, in the wrong quantities is what makes someone fatter. And diet is only PART of the equation.

Off Road
02-15-2011, 04:09 PM
I think the point that needs to be made, and Sensei touched on it, there is a big difference between a burger that you could make at home and a burger you'd get at the fast food resteraunt. Also a big difference between the potatos you'd cook at home as opposed to the french fries you'd get at the fast food resteraunt. And on and on...

The macros won't be the same because of the quality and leaness of the meat, the way it's cooked, etc...

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 04:12 PM
I think the point that needs to be made, and Sensei touched on it, there is a big difference between a burger that you could make at home and a burger you'd get at the fast food resteraunt. Also a big difference between the potatos you'd cook at home as opposed to the french fries you'd get at the fast food resteraunt. And on and on...

The macros won't be the same because of the quality and leaness of the meat, the way it's cooked, etc...

The macros were the same for the fast food big mac and the organic beef/turkey meals that were all natural I posted. Even the french fries fried in pure conola oil were the same. So it really depends on the specific food choices in my opinion.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 04:13 PM
A few things im seeing in this thread that led to the arguments between Rich and Sensei. The OP never really gave a specific END goal. He was bulking and just started to notice he was getting a little fat.

Rich's original advice of either continue to gain, and cut later, or cut now, and then bulk up slow seems pretty sound. But an end goal might change this.

And Sensei's advice of just keep training and "clean things up" sorta makes sense as well. I will say though, that consuming "dirty foods" in of itself doesn't make someone fat. Its consuming too much of these foods, too often, and at the wrong times that makes people fat.

The OP gained weight very fast, and has been taking 2 weight gainers a day, and eating pizza daily. This is probalby the problem.

I think in this case both Rich and Sensei's advice is correct. He bulked up fast, eating too much "dirty foods" so he gained some fat. Making some small changes as both of them suggested should allow the OP to continue progress and prevent getting fatter, OR even get leaner.

But I also see that you guys are disagreeing more about the "clean" vs "dirty" foods thing. Its a pretty complex subject and the media has tried to simplify it down to "clean" and "dirty" which made much of the discussion irrelevant. There aren't "clean" foods that by eating them make you muscular. And there aren't "dirty" foods that by eating them make you fat.

Its much more complex, and eating the wrong things, in the wrong quantities is what makes someone fatter. And diet is only PART of the equation.

Good points. Its helpful to see the view point of someone else watching this as oposed to people specifically involved in the argument.

Sensei
02-15-2011, 07:28 PM
But I also see that you guys are disagreeing more about the "clean" vs "dirty" foods thing. Its a pretty complex subject and the media has tried to simplify it down to "clean" and "dirty" which made much of the discussion irrelevant. There aren't "clean" foods that by eating them make you muscular. And there aren't "dirty" foods that by eating them make you fat.
In no way did I mean that by simply eating "cleaner" you would be leaner. I think it is a no-brainer that you can get fat eating nothing but good food, and it's very possible to lose weight eating nothing but junk. I assume this to be common knowledge.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 07:39 PM
In no way did I mean that by simply eating "cleaner" you would be leaner. I think it is a no-brainer that you can get fat eating nothing but good food, and it's very possible to lose weight eating nothing but junk. I assume this to be common knowledge.

Ya I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that. I agree with your advice for the OP. I was just stating that arguing over "clean vs. dirty calorie" was just a waste of time.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 08:02 PM
Well, my ocd kicks in and my eyes twitch when people use the "clean eating" thing just like when people say they want to "tone" up.

The worst ones though, mind you, are "loose" for "lose" or "than" and "then". Lol. Either way, I'm not attacking the posters, just what they typed.

And sometimes being too general can be bad. Like what I posted, those "clean" foods had just as many Calories as big macs. So it wouldnt accomplish anything. Thermodynamics would prevent that. But then again, getting too technical can also throw people off too I guess. They will find some way to mess it up. So whatever.

Either way, the OP hasnt really said anything so I guess it makes it all pretty pointless anyways. No need to beat a dead horse.

Raleighwood
02-15-2011, 08:13 PM
Rich,

I am not really sure what the point is in posting that study's meals and macro-nutrient profile. Nor do I think the hormonal profile is that significant... What hormones were the testing? Was this a long term study? Did they track body composition, activity, and change in feelings of well being over time?

It is of my opinion and experience, that when someone eats mainly fast (dirty) foods their body comp and overall wellness declines. Anecdotally, after eating home cooked "cleanish" foods for months and than having a value-meal from a fast food joint, I feel bad and my digestion sucks. I know N = 1 here, but IMO it carries enough weight for me to prefer more nutritious foods.

In the real world, it is much more challenging to eat lower amounts of calories if the majority of your food consumption is scientifically engineered (flavored) to make you crave more. Compound that with the fact that most dirty foods are cheap and convenient, it spells disaster.

This has gotten way off topic, but I feel it is in the general public's best interest to learn the value and benefits of cooking and eating whole foods, rather than resorting to fast foods.

I am not trying to dispute the laws of thermodynamics or say that organic food is superior. However, IMO, the merits of eating home cooked, whole, minimally processed foods are obvious.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 08:24 PM
Rich,

I am not really sure what the point is in posting that study's meals and macro-nutrient profile. Nor do I think the hormonal profile is that significant... What hormones were the testing? Was this a long term study? Did they track body composition, activity, and change in feelings of well being over time?.

Read the study.


t is of my opinion and experience, that when someone eats mainly fast (dirty) foods their body comp and overall wellness declines.

Yes, their body comp. might change because they are consuming more Calories than they think from some fast foods. People generally lower their overall Calories when they attempt to "eat clean" Overall wellness would probably depend more on genetics than anything.


In the real world, it is much more challenging to eat lower amounts of calories if the majority of your food consumption is scientifically engineered (flavored) to make you crave more. Compound that with the fact that most dirty foods are cheap and convenient, it spells disaster.

This I agree with. However, dieting down isnt easy in the first place for many people. Theres something to be said about mental toughness. But on the other side, having the occasional fast food meal (assuming you can fit it into your macros) is a lot easier for people psychologically than trying to swear off certain foods all together.


This has gotten way off topic, but I feel it is in the general public's best interest to learn the value and benefits of cooking and eating whole foods, rather than resorting to fast foods..

It has and the OP hasnt chimed in with anything. So whats the point I guess. But theres been a lot of good discussion.