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Jonathan E
02-14-2011, 08:08 PM
.....

RichMcGuire
02-14-2011, 08:19 PM
That program looks like pure crap. It's not even worth revising. If youre concerned with football or whatever, a proper 5x5 program might be a better way to go. But what you got there needs to be burned and your coach needs a reality check.

BoAnderson71
02-14-2011, 10:50 PM
Looks fine because it is lifting. And as long as it progresses to lower reps that back up to higher it doesnt matter. What matters in highschool is you learn the proper technique, consistantly lift, eat and sleep.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 02:48 AM
Ya this is just a basic program to get highschool kids strong. It's probably fine to develop a base but it should get down to some heavy squats, bench, and reads ASAP. As for curls, that would be fine, but unnecessary. Just do some chinups instead

mikesbench
02-15-2011, 01:13 PM
I agree with Bo and Dan. This is an ok program if you're just starting out (which most high school kids are). If you're enjoying your lifting make it a point to research training for your own knowledge, and spend time talking to your strength coach to see what you can learn from him. Odds are if you're making progress and showing an interest in strength training he'll have some progressions for you to work on beyond this beginner template.

Coaching a big group of relative newbies (typically) is a tough task for sure. To serve the group it's easiest to lay out a program that teaches a little of everything, but often you have a few kids that have much more interest / aptitude for training that could handle some more advance methods.

The best advice I can give you is learn a much as you can yourself; your coach may have vast knowledge but remember that his job is to teach the entire group which basically means he has to focus on the "average" kid. Study training, be open to new ideas, and be outgoing in seeking out more info both from your coach and other sources.

vdizenzo
02-15-2011, 01:34 PM
I'd stick with more of the basics like Starting Strength, Bigger Faster Stronger, or 5/3/1. Like others said above, work on technique. Bad technique first off will hurt you, secondly, it will haunt you for a long time. It's hard to unlearn bad technique.

In my opinion the program above looks like a lot of crap thrown at the wall with hopes that somehow something will stick.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 02:33 PM
I'd stick with more of the basics like Starting Strength, Bigger Faster Stronger, or 5/3/1. Like others said above, work on technique. Bad technique first off will hurt you, secondly, it will haunt you for a long time. It's hard to unlearn bad technique.

In my opinion the program above looks like a lot of crap thrown at the wall with hopes that somehow something will stick.

lol I'm glad someone else saw the obvious :P

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 02:35 PM
Not to be that guy, but actual reasoning would be better than just saying 'this Is crap, your coach is dumb.' also, like I stated above...we do go into lower reps later on during the training, we don't repeat this. it changes. And ftr, he's an ex powerlifter. benching 500-600 to this day, so I think there is some reasoning behind this.

Vdiz is stronger than your coach and agrees with me. But I never said your coach was dumb. He just needs a reality check imo ;)

Let me ask you though, how long does your workout usually take? Youre doing movements out of order and ones that have carry over that detract from other compounds..like bentover rows ans latpull downs before deadlifts..things like that. Overall, the volume seems way too high to adapt to when strength is the goal.

4g64fiero
02-15-2011, 03:09 PM
That program looks like pure crap. It's not even worth revising. If youre concerned with football or whatever, a proper 5x5 program might be a better way to go. But what you got there needs to be burned and your coach needs a reality check.

This is true and there is no way around that reality.

Most good starting programs have around 3 lifts a day including accessory work and only have you lifting 3-4 times a week.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 03:21 PM
This is true and there is no way around that reality.

Most good starting programs have around 3 lifts a day including accessory work and only have you lifting 3-4 times a week.

The coach may have some reasoning though. Maybe there is lack of equipment, and they cant get everyone in there doing bench/squat/deadlift all at once.

It seems like eveyrone is following the same program, and I dont like that so much. The overweight high school kid with a decent amount of muscle and strength should be following a different program than the skinny kid that has trouble gaining weight.

Heres some advice for the Original Poster. You pretty much have to follow the program your coach put out there for you, even if it "pure crap". But you can still make things work much better by following the program smarter. If you were to follow that program how it is written and train intensely on every exercise, you probably wouldn't make much progress. Its just way too much volume and too many exercises.

The most important things are going to be Squat, bench, deadlift, and rows. Spend the majority of your time, and your effort learning these lifts well, and getting stronger on them. Your program could consist of ONLY these lifts and you'd probably be fine. But since it has other things, my advice is to "half ass" the other junk and save some room in your tank for the things that matter most.

I'd also want to see 2-3 conditioning workouts per week in there as you get closer to the season. Sled work, and hill sprints would be my primary choices for "conditioning work".

AdamBAG
02-15-2011, 03:31 PM
I played ball in highschool and in college. I did plenty of lifting programs that weren't great and some that might have been considered crap.

The problem here is that you are going to be doing this program no matter what you think about it. What coach says goes. If you were paying this person to write this program then you could fire him. You can't fire your coach at school.

So I would go in every day and make it my goal to kick ass at whatever they are having you do. Going in with a **** attitude because guys on the internet don't like the program is not going to help you get stronger and be a good player.

4g64fiero
02-15-2011, 03:38 PM
I played ball in highschool and in college. I did plenty of lifting programs that weren't great and some that might have been considered crap.

The problem here is that you are going to be doing this program no matter what you think about it. What coach says goes. If you were paying this person to write this program then you could fire him. You can't fire your coach at school.

So I would go in every day and make it my goal to kick ass at whatever they are having you do. Going in with a **** attitude because guys on the internet don't like the program is not going to help you get stronger and be a good player.

Is it fair so say, that having a "bad attitude" would be detrimental in this case?:cool:

Off Road
02-15-2011, 04:15 PM
So I would go in every day and make it my goal to kick ass at whatever they are having you do. Going in with a **** attitude because guys on the internet don't like the program is not going to help you get stronger and be a good player.
That's what I was thinking too. Sometimes you just don't have a choice and you have to make the best of it.

Jonathan E
02-15-2011, 06:16 PM
Thank you everyone for the input. I mean, even though some people think this program is ****,(and made it quite clear, I might add...) I've actually seen some good gains to be perfectly honest. For a high schooler, I think me along with many others on the team are going beyond most others also. Clear some above questions;
-we take around 1 hour,30min
-we do the primary lifts first,the list isn't in exact order
-most of the time, we don't do 2-3 of the smaller lifts due to time and stamina
-again, this Is only week 5-6 of the program, we will continue to go down in reps until we hit the 5/3/1 type thing.
-we will start speed/conditioning drills in a week, 2 days a week

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 06:30 PM
Thank you everyone for the input. I mean, even though some people think this program is ****,(and made it quite clear, I might add...) I've actually seen some good gains to be perfectly honest. For a high schooler, I think me along with many others on the team are going beyond most others also. Clear some above questions;
-we take around 1 hour,30min
-we do the primary lifts first,the list isn't in exact order
-most of the time, we don't do 2-3 of the smaller lifts due to time and stamina
-again, this Is only week 5-6 of the program, we will continue to go down in reps until we hit the 5/3/1 type thing.
-we will start speed/conditioning drills in a week, 2 days a week

As long as its working, thats all you need to worry about. If you are getting stronger, bigger, and not getting injured, then your coach is doing a good job. Learn the lifts, and dont worry so much about what others say.

joey54
02-15-2011, 07:06 PM
Read the Joe DeFranco stickies and when you feel comfortable talk to you coach about incoporating some of that routine into your lifting. If he isn't hearing it, don't push the issue, but you'll never know if you don't try.

vdizenzo
02-15-2011, 07:45 PM
The kid asked for feedback and I gave mine. I certainly know I never told him not to have a good attitude.

Regarding the program working, I'll thow in a relevant theory, if you put a fat person on a diet he/she is going to lose some weight. It does not mean there is not a better more efficient diet out there. I have seen hs kids make gains on some of the worst programs out there. At that age your body has a lot of great chemistry going on.

I'm not sure why you even bothered posting this but hey, whatever. Work the program hard and best of luck.

RichMcGuire
02-15-2011, 08:16 PM
Thank you everyone for the input. I mean, even though some people think this program is ****,(and made it quite clear, I might add...) I've actually seen some good gains to be perfectly honest. For a high schooler, I think me along with many others on the team are going beyond most others also. Clear some above questions;
-we take around 1 hour,30min
-we do the primary lifts first,the list isn't in exact order
-most of the time, we don't do 2-3 of the smaller lifts due to time and stamina
-again, this Is only week 5-6 of the program, we will continue to go down in reps until we hit the 5/3/1 type thing.
-we will start speed/conditioning drills in a week, 2 days a week

Well I think you deserve the truth. There are way better programs out there for developing a strength base. You should copy/paste that routine on some other forums and see what they say. Hell I'll do it for you. But I don't think they will be any nicer. Especially the non moderated forums.

The way I was looking at it is, if you got into a car accident and the dmg was greater than 50% of the value.. you'd total the car and get a new one. You wouldnt try to order expensive parts and fix it up in most cases.

But if you have to do the program, then theres no need to ask about it. Just do it and try to get stronger (at least for as long as you can with that thing) and eat a lot of food. You're only on week 5-6 of the program and most things work for that time period because of neural adaptions. When your CNS becomes more and more taxed and struggles to develop efficiancy with motor patterns for specific biomechancis then you might run into trouble.

Jonathan E
02-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Well I think you deserve the truth. There are way better programs out there for developing a strength base. You should copy/paste that routine on some other forums and see what they say. Hell I'll do it for you. But I don't think they will be any nicer. Especially the non moderated forums.

The way I was looking at it is, if you got into a car accident and the dmg was greater than 50% of the value.. you'd total the car and get a new one. You wouldnt try to order expensive parts and fix it up in most cases.

But if you have to do the program, then theres no need to ask about it. Just do it and try to get stronger (at least for as long as you can with that thing) and eat a lot of food. You're only on week 5-6 of the program and most things work for that time period because of neural adaptions. When your CNS becomes more and more taxed and struggles to develop efficiancy with motor patterns for specific biomechancis then you might run into trouble.

Look I appreciate the Feedback from you and the fellow above you. I'm not asking you to be 'nice', I want your opinion. (which you both gave me in your personal way). And I thank you,seriously. But I don't understand why you guys think it's crap. The only logical reasoning I recieved from you was 1:it's to high volume. 2:certain lifts conflict eachother. My response, 1: the reps change to lower, more typical powerlifting standards in the following weeks, and we frankly don't do some of the smaller lifts due to time. 2:we do primary lifts first, the list isn't in exact order.

Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 10:43 PM
Look I appreciate the Feedback from you and the fellow above you. I'm not asking you to be 'nice', I want your opinion. (which you both gave me in your personal way). And I thank you,seriously. But I don't understand why you guys think it's crap. The only logical reasoning I recieved from you was 1:it's to high volume. 2:certain lifts conflict eachother. My response, 1: the reps change to lower, more typical powerlifting standards in the following weeks, and we frankly don't do some of the smaller lifts due to time. 2:we do primary lifts first, the list isn't in exact order.

Well just so you have some reference, here is what STARTING STRENGTH looks like. Some might not like the program, but its typically recognized as a good starting program for highschool lifters to learn the lifts and develop a base of strength/muscle.

"Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power Cleans"

Workouts A and B are done on 3 non-consecutive days per week. The program isn't without flaws, but its very simple and generally works pretty well if followed.

SS has 5 different exercises throughout the week and only 3 pre workout. Conversely, your plan has 20+ exercises and about 10 per workout. Its MUCH harder to learn 20 exercises than it is to learn 5.

Also, generally in a plan you dont want to include anything that doens't have a specific purpose. Like Vdizenzo mentioned, it looks like the coach took a buch of things, and threw them at the wall, and that program is what he ended up with.

Its no disrespect to your coach. He may have a reason for doing this, or maybe he doens't know better. Its NOT correct to assume that since he is decently strong that he knows what he is doing. This is not always the case.

But like we mentioned above. There is nothing you can do about this. You can try to question your coach on this, but that probably wont go well. You are stuck with the program, so just do it and make the most of it. If it works, then GREAT. If not, hopefully your coach is willing ot make some changes, or maybe your school should get a new coach.

4g64fiero
02-16-2011, 03:51 PM
It looks like your coach pulled that out of FLEX magazine.

I didnt realize curls were so important in football. :omg:

I would definitely eat 4-5k calories a day if I were you. I realize this is a blanket statement with inherent danger but thats the only way I see anyone making progress on this as a teenager.

You have to forgive my tone. Once upon a time, I played high school football and the coaches just made us do stupid ****. I never progressed the way a novice should until I moved to a school that had us do "less". As a HS student I didnt understand calories made you grow; they had been demonized by the media/coaches/ faculty/parents. I didnt understand the purpose of recovery.

Jonathan E
02-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Thanks for the continuous input everyone. I actually edited my original post to show a realistic day in training. as we really don't do everything. Also, I might start a new thread in the journal section to show any progress or anything else. Like said by many people, you have to do it, so make the best of it. Hopefully serious gains will come with it.

Dan Fanelli
02-16-2011, 05:40 PM
Thanks for the continuous input everyone. I actually edited my original post to show a realistic day in training. as we really don't do everything. Also, I might start a new thread in the journal section to show any progress or anything else. Like said by many people, you have to do it, so make the best of it. Hopefully serious gains will come with it.

This is the right attitude. Keep a log, and visit the forums regularly. Others will be able to continually give you more input and you'll be better off. A lot of success in training is your mind set and just putting the work in.

And even though a lot of us are sayint the plan is "crap" what really matters is progress. If you follow the plan to some extent and you get stronger/bigger it doesn't matter what we say. Conversely, you could follow the "best" plan and maybe not make any progress. Is it still the "best" plan?

chris mason
02-16-2011, 07:52 PM
Training 4 days in a row with high intensity is not optimal.

You are training your legs, hips, glutes, and lower back way too much with that program and you will suffer for it sooner or later.

Tell your coach some of the strongest guys in the world suggested that he gets the Westside Book of Methods.

BloodandThunder
02-17-2011, 02:39 PM
Linear Periodization, got it. Why does your coach have speed exercises listed in the same block as power or hypertrophy? LP is fine, just stick to the basic model before bastardizing it.

Also youtube, "Hang Clean/Power Clean/Hang Snatch...etc" and you'll understand any sentiment as to why any HS program would have Oly lifts in it, unless of course the head strength coach was a USAW certified coach who could have you perfecting technique in a few workouts (hint hint, not many here).

Rather than just say do "5x5, SS, BFS, etc" your coach should reevaluate his plan. And yes, doing 5x5, SS, BFS will be just as effective to strength gains.

Compounds trained for high reps four days in a week is a huge workload. Try BS and FS 3x10 then pulling 3x10 the next day? There are better ways to mix hypertrophy, speed work, and strength building in a microcycle. Chris suggested WS and thats a good example. Do you have to train exactly like a powerlifter? No. But even defrancos stuff would be a better start than what you have listed.

Jonathan E
02-22-2011, 05:55 PM
http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?141963-Offseason-Weight-Training-Journal