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View Full Version : Defranco's shoulder shocker AND weak shoulders?



Dan Fanelli
02-15-2011, 10:29 PM
Ive tried the Defranco shoulder shocker a few times now, and I SUCK big time at it.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/shoulder_shocker

Its the video at the bottom of the page. Ok the first time I tried it, I used a 25lb plate for the front raises, and 20's then 15's for the DB raises. This was hell. Today I tried it with 10lb DB's and it was still hell. Im wondering if:

a)my shoulders are weak
b)I have some sort of flexibility/imbalance
c)Im just 'spent' by the time I get to these
d)Or I just need to stick with it and progress

Here was today's workout:

" " 1)Bench with short mini bands
115x2x3
135x2x3
155x2x3
165x2x3

2)Half foam press CG
135x8
185x6
205x6
225x5

3)Bar pushups
+45 x 8
+45 x 8
BW x 15

4)Tricep pressdowns 2x15
5)Tricep rollbacks 2x15

6)Defranco shoulder tri-set
Plate front raise (25) 3x10
DB side raise (10s) 3x10
Cuban press (10s) 3x10 " "

I did do a lot of pressing by the time I got to these, but im just surprised by how weak I am on them.

What do you guys think???

RhodeHouse
02-16-2011, 06:41 AM
Too much pressing in one workout and you did zero back work. I think this is a huge mistake. Back work will improve your bench more thna a ton of pressing.

Dan Fanelli
02-16-2011, 08:16 AM
Too much pressing in one workout and you did zero back work. I think this is a huge mistake. Back work will improve your bench more thna a ton of pressing.

Well, today is my "light" back day. I do some heavy back work on my heavy lower day with deadlifts, and then split up my DE upper day. Its like this:

M: Off
T: DE upper (press)
W: Accessory (back) [mainly farmer's, facepulls, and pulldowns]
Th: DE lower
F:Me upper
S: Off
Sn: ME lower (and heavy back) [heavier farmer's, and rows]

mikesbench
02-16-2011, 10:52 AM
I tried these too and they were very tough. I was consiering doing them as 3 seperate exercises rather than the gant set they are intended to be as a way to progress into it.

Like Rhodes though, I like to work my upper back on bench days and don't do so many pressing movements in 1 session. I feel like pairing these together helps tokeep me balanced. If I just press and do back another day my back is already fatigued from benching and I spend the day inbetween feeing like my upper body is all curled forward and out of alignment if that makes sense.

RhodeHouse
02-16-2011, 11:12 AM
Well, today is my "light" back day. I do some heavy back work on my heavy lower day with deadlifts, and then split up my DE upper day. Its like this:

M: Off
T: DE upper (press)
W: Accessory (back) [mainly farmer's, facepulls, and pulldowns]
Th: DE lower
F:Me upper
S: Off
Sn: ME lower (and heavy back) [heavier farmer's, and rows]

Dude, you can do what you want. What I do know is that Westside is not set up that way at all. And, with DE and ME work, it seems that's what you're trying to do. Westside works for a reason. I have no idea why anyone would change it. Apparently, there are guys out there who haven't even been alive as long as Louie has been lifting, yet they seem to know more than Lou. Crazy?

As I said before, you do too much pressing. Read the Westside logs. You will see that they do 2 pressing movements in one workout. Unless you bench more than they do, you might want to do what they do, especially since that's what it looks like you'rre trying to do.

But hey? What do I know?

IronDiggy
02-16-2011, 11:23 AM
I was going to give the shoulder shockers a go on bench day this week. Good to know to take it a bit lighter.

Dan Fanelli
02-16-2011, 12:32 PM
@Rhodehouse - I'll give that some thought, and look back throughth the book of methods. But I was under the impression that Louie preferred pressing for accessory work as opposed to isolation moves.

MarcusWild
02-16-2011, 03:23 PM
It's 30 straight reps with no real rest. It's going to take some time to develop a decent working capacity for that type of work. It's like taking someone that does 100M and expecting them to run a fast mile. They are going to tire out.

Dan Fanelli
02-16-2011, 03:56 PM
It's 30 straight reps with no real rest. It's going to take some time to develop a decent working capacity for that type of work. It's like taking someone that does 100M and expecting them to run a fast mile. They are going to tire out.

Of course. But I think even if I did it with 1lb dbs or even no weight i'd still struggle. This just doesn't seem right.

chris mason
02-16-2011, 07:44 PM
I agree with Rhodes in the sense you are using Westside principles but not following their template and thus bastardizing the program and likely compromising results.

Dan Fanelli
02-16-2011, 09:21 PM
I agree with Rhodes in the sense you are using Westside principles but not following their template and thus bastardizing the program and likely compromising results.

Ya, I see what you are saying. And I guess if it comes to that im not really doing "Westside". Instead, im using the conjugate method to achieve my own goals.

And its really hard to discern which way to go with these things, because there is so much mis-information out there.

I tend to listen to those that are stronger and more experienced than me, but that hasn't always worked so well. Ive also learned to just listen to my body and make things work.

Furthermore, ive seen MANY guys on the forums doing similar modifications. And if things stop working, then i'll revert back to the original template.

So back to my original question.....

Are my shoulders weak, is something wrong, or is it just a hard exercise and I need time to adapt?

kingns
02-16-2011, 09:22 PM
not to get too off topic from the original question, but I moved all my LAT work to a seperate day and still do upper back stuff and rear delt stuff on bench day and think it works better for me. Plus in a lot of the articles and logs the bench only guys do their back stuff on a seperate day too. But I agree if you are going to do westside you should do it how its written and not try to re invent it ( it works for a reason)

But back to the question, it doesnt matter if you use a really light weight for that exercise, 30 reps is super hard.

RhodeHouse
02-18-2011, 08:23 AM
@Rhodehouse - I'll give that some thought, and look back throughth the book of methods. But I was under the impression that Louie preferred pressing for accessory work as opposed to isolation moves.

There are no isolation movements out there. You can't isolate a muscle. It's impossible. Our bodies don't work that way.

Pressing is a great way to hammer the triceps/lockout, however, more than 2 pressing movements in a workout is a lot of work.

I have a question? What is conjugate training? I know what it is, but I'm curious if you really know what it is and exactly how simple it really is.

Dan Fanelli
02-18-2011, 11:41 AM
There are no isolation movements out there. You can't isolate a muscle. It's impossible. Our bodies don't work that way.

Pressing is a great way to hammer the triceps/lockout, however, more than 2 pressing movements in a workout is a lot of work.

I have a question? What is conjugate training? I know what it is, but I'm curious if you really know what it is and exactly how simple it really is.

The conjugate method involves using similar yet different training methods together to achieve one goal. Westside uses ME, DE, and RE training all to improve 1RMs on bench, squat and deadlift.

It also involves rotating exercises, and fixing weaknesses.

As for the isolation thing, you might not be able to completely isolate one muscle, but tricep extensions are certainly an isolation move when compared to bench press.

Travis Bell
02-18-2011, 11:54 AM
The conjugate method involves using similar yet different training methods together to achieve one goal. Westside uses ME, DE, and RE training all to improve 1RMs on bench, squat and deadlift.

It also involves rotating exercises, and fixing weaknesses.

As for the isolation thing, you might not be able to completely isolate one muscle, but tricep extensions are certainly an isolation move when compared to bench press.

Close but not quite.

Dan Fanelli
02-18-2011, 01:08 PM
Close but not quite.

Ya, the definition will change depending on where you look. I also get it confused with "concurrent periodization" because they are very similar in some circles. Definition problems asside I just look at the most important aspects.

ME - If you want to increase max strength, you have to train with heavy weights. It gets into specificity of and movement velocity. You have to learn to grind, and practice your technique with maximal loads. BUT, you can only train with >90% for up to about 3 weeks, so you need to rotate the ME movements.

DE - You want to increase the rate of force development. The way I picture this, is that you are developing reversal strength and speed. If a person interested in developing their vertical ONLY did max squats, they would have a potential for a high jump, but wouldn't be able to apply a maximum force quick enough to reach near maximum forces at those velocities of movement. (F=ma) Also, DE work keeps your ME work from getting painfully slow. And it further can help with accelerating through "sticking points".

RE - This one is always confusing, and we've seen a ton of different definitions in previous threads. Basically, its Volume work. It has different purposes, but they all lead to more potential for strength/size/speed. If something is not ME, and its not DE, it must be RE.

That would be the most important aspects I take away from the "conjugate method". Also, exercise selection is very important as always. There are a few reasons why I prefer this method. I feel it is simpler than most other methods of periodization. Others will disagree. Also, it avoids the typical "stall" that many other systems often incur. Furthermore, I think its important to include ME work as frequently as possible, and I dont know of any other methods that allow this type of frequency.

AdamBAG
02-18-2011, 01:58 PM
Too much pressing in one workout and you did zero back work. I think this is a huge mistake. Back work will improve your bench more thna a ton of pressing.

I couldn't agree more. There is no reason to change the template. It works.

I do not understand why you are worried about this circuit of shoulder raises. You've done it a couple of times and it was hard. So what?

Louie's ideas and methods can be customized to fit every lifter. This is good and really bad all at the same time. People get too bogged down in the details.

I see that you live in "the bay area." I cannot express how strongly I feel you should go train at Diablo Barbell and really learn something about lifting instead of worrying about all these details.

BoAnderson71
02-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Why are you arguing or trying to justify your "Bastarized" westside program to a guy that used to train there, and a guy that still sees louie every week? You post too much about programming and lifting and you need to start doing it, seriously.

Dan Fanelli
02-18-2011, 02:19 PM
I couldn't agree more. There is no reason to change the template. It works.

I do not understand why you are worried about this circuit of shoulder raises. You've done it a couple of times and it was hard. So what?

Louie's ideas and methods can be customized to fit every lifter. This is good and really bad all at the same time. People get too bogged down in the details.

I see that you live in "the bay area." I cannot express how strongly I feel you should go train at Diablo Barbell and really learn something about lifting instead of worrying about all these details.

You say there is no reason to change the template, but that it can be "customized" to fit every lifter. Over time I have made some changes to fit MY needs and so far im happy with it. Im not bogged down with the details, im just making it work.

This thread started with a simple question, but nobody gave any simple answers besided "too much pressing". I'll consider this as I make changes. But I will have to say, there is so much contradictory information going around, its hard to know who to trust.

Some say, for Raw lifters that are not very strong, to stick with mainly pressing movements, and that isolation moves wont do too much. Others say that you just need to hammer the triceps. Ive seen some Westside guys that state they do a lot of tricep extensions, but Louie never liked "isolation moves" over compounds.

People have said, that bands and chains are useless for Raw beginners, and others have said otherwise. People have said DE work is useless, others have said otherwise. There is so much conflicting information going around about this system (even from guys that have or had trained at Westside) that you have to take people's advice and then try it and see how it works for YOU.

I got my program to where it is now, by modifying it and "making it work" for me. Sure, I could revert back to the original template so that I could say im doing "Westside" and not make any progress and not enjoy training, but what would that solve.

I respect you guys and your advice, but Ive learned over time to take it with a grain of salt. At the moment im happy with my training, but am interested more in the question I proposed initially. Thank you.


P.S. I did look into Diablo at one time, but its pretty far from where I am. The Bay Area is pretty big.

Dan Fanelli
02-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Why are you arguing or trying to justify your "Bastarized" westside program to a guy that used to train there, and a guy that still sees louie every week? You post too much about programming and lifting and you need to start doing it, seriously.

Again, im not arguing or trying to justify anything. I was trying to get some opinions to a simple question. And I dont need to start doing it. I already am doing it. Seriously!

AdamBAG
02-18-2011, 02:35 PM
You say there is no reason to change the template, but that it can be "customized" to fit every lifter. Over time I have made some changes to fit MY needs and so far im happy with it. Im not bogged down with the details, im just making it work.

This thread started with a simple question, but nobody gave any simple answers besided "too much pressing". I'll consider this as I make changes. But I will have to say, there is so much contradictory information going around, its hard to know who to trust.

Some say, for Raw lifters that are not very strong, to stick with mainly pressing movements, and that isolation moves wont do too much. Others say that you just need to hammer the triceps. Ive seen some Westside guys that state they do a lot of tricep extensions, but Louie never liked "isolation moves" over compounds.

People have said, that bands and chains are useless for Raw beginners, and others have said otherwise. People have said DE work is useless, others have said otherwise. There is so much conflicting information going around about this system (even from guys that have or had trained at Westside) that you have to take people's advice and then try it and see how it works for YOU.

I got my program to where it is now, by modifying it and "making it work" for me. Sure, I could revert back to the original template so that I could say im doing "Westside" and not make any progress and not enjoy training, but what would that solve.

I respect you guys and your advice, but Ive learned over time to take it with a grain of salt. At the moment im happy with my training, but am interested more in the question I proposed initially. Thank you.


P.S. I did look into Diablo at one time, but its pretty far from where I am. The Bay Area is pretty big.

I assume that your highlights are intended to say that I contradict myself?

Why don't you read the next sentence where I say that customization of the template is good and also really bad for beginners?

Why do you ask "what do you guys think" and then challenge every opinion that someone gives you that is contradictory to what you think the answer is?

If you think you are right why are you asking any of us for an opinion?

Have the confidence in yourself to do it your way and not post thread after thread asking these types of questions.

If I was you I would contact El Diablo www.diablobarbell.com and go get strong. They train with the conjugate method. What better way is there to learn?

Dan Fanelli
02-18-2011, 02:58 PM
Point taken Adam. Looking back, I realize I would have been better off asking this question directly to Defranco. But I do value your guys opinions. I'll keep my program as is, but cut the pressing down to 2 exercises for now.

AdamBAG
02-18-2011, 03:13 PM
Point taken Adam. Looking back, I realize I would have been better off asking this question directly to Defranco. But I do value your guys opinions. I'll keep my program as is, but cut the pressing down to 2 exercises for now.

I apologize if I came off as a dick, which I likely did.

The only way to truly find out what is right for you is to test it in the gym. Give it enough time to work. Then decide for yourself.