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GazzyG
03-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Right, I've made some decent progress in strength the last few months, gaining a bit of weight in the process.

Obviously some of this weight gain has been fat, not muscle. I'm used to having a pretty flat stomach, but now it's a bit softer than I'm used to.

My question is, should I do a little bit of a cut now, trim off some fat till I have a nice flat stomach again, then slowly carry on gaining?

Or if I continue as I am (3000kcals a day) would I at some point begin to recomp naturally, making doing a cut now a little pointless?

Sorry if I sound a bit silly - I'm just a lifter, not a bodybuilder. My degree is in languages, not nutrition, haha!

Thanks for the help.

Gaz

f=ma
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
there are a few rhetorical questions you need to ask yourself in order to answer your question.

1. are you disgusted with your appearance?
2. do you actually have muscle mass to make dieting worthwhile?
3. do you have the precision & patience required to recomp successfully?

i only consider myself a lifter. but in doing so, one needs to learn how to use nutrition to meet the goal, whether its strength, appearance or both. i'm a big proponent of being as lean as possible during the summer months to maximize reproduction ability. being that you're an aussie, this is your winter, yes? in your case, i would try to clean up your diet, be a little more careful with your cal levels, and keep gaining... provided, of course, that the answers to the above questions put you onto that path.

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 01:51 PM
Nottingham England UK is in australia?

Gazzy - Tim's point #3 is pretty much what I was going to say. To successfully recomp it's going to require dead on precision for a few long time for only meager results. As well as a diet deviation may wipe out a months worth of progress as oppose to just a few days after dieting hard.

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 02:33 PM
1. are you disgusted with your appearance?
2. do you actually have muscle mass to make dieting worthwhile?
3. do you have the precision & patience required to recomp successfully?

1) Not disgusted, no. That's a very strong word. But I'm unused to having a belly. It unsettles me.

2) Possibly - I'm only short and the gains I've made are more obvious in the flesh than in that sole pic I posted.

3) Patience I have. Precision, less so, haha.

Thanks, bud - given me a lot to chew on.


Nottingham England UK is in australia?

Gazzy - Tim's point #3 is pretty much what I was going to say. To successfully recomp it's going to require dead on precision for a few long time for only meager results. As well as a diet deviation may wipe out a months worth of progress as oppose to just a few days after dieting hard.

Aye, I might have to start putting long/lat as well as country and kingdom, hehe.

And yeah, I get what you're both meaning about recomp. I'm not sure I could trust myself to be that precise for a long time.

What would you both suggest instead? Keep bulking for another month or two, till it's nearly summer, then do a short diet to trim myself back? Or just do a short diet now till I'm a bit leaner and make slow gains, keeping an eye on cals?

Learning a lot from you guys, cheers.

f=ma
03-13-2011, 02:42 PM
haha, i, for some reason thought you were from australia even though it definitely says UK. sorry.

post up some more comprehensive pictures (no homo) and it will be easier to call whether or not you can/should diet

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 02:48 PM
haha, i, for some reason thought you were from australia even though it definitely says UK. sorry.

post up some more comprehensive pictures (no homo) and it will be easier to call whether or not you can/should diet

Okay, mate, will do.

I warn you, though - I'm hairy and moley; not exactly bodybuilder type, haha!

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 02:53 PM
Your approach is up to you. I would just commit to an endeavor and not do the wishy washy middle of the road approach unless you already have size and cuts youre mostly content with.

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
Please ignore my expression, as the gf was trying to make me piss myself laughing while taking them!

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/2301/frontbis.jpghttp://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9854/sidemp.jpg

I'm not really fat - but I'm used to being lean and I'm seeing no definition at all. It might be me just being a little vain, but with summer approaching I don't want much wobble if I go for a swim, haha.

And as you can see, I've not got a huge amount of muscle either, but trust me, I was a bit of a stick before - I was always out hiking through the countryside with heavy backpacks. You can imagine the figure that gives.

Thanks. And again, excuse the hair, haha.

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 03:25 PM
DAMN! Dude weedwhack that babboon off your chest/stomach

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 03:30 PM
DAMN! Dude weedwhack that babboon off your chest/stomach

Haha!!! My gf like me hairy, so I'm afraid I'd lose man points if I started waxing.

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 03:32 PM
No she doesn't, she's polite.

f=ma
03-13-2011, 03:33 PM
first. lol at the mole hair on right arm, gotta cut that shiz off lol...

but i would keep going and really learn dieting for added str/size depending on what you want. if you want to lift and be effective, this is what you need to learn.

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 03:37 PM
No she doesn't, she's polite.

lol, she does bud. She complains even when I shave! She's a hardcore Brit girl, all haggis and black pudding - they take em different over here, hehe.


first. lol at the mole hair on right arm, gotta cut that shiz off lol...

but i would keep going and really learn dieting for added str/size depending on what you want. if you want to lift and be effective, this is what you need to learn.

Hah! In the summer it gets its weekly shave, mate, cos I wear sleeveless tops when it's sunny. But I'm hibernating atm.

And I get what you mean about keeping going. But what do you mean about dieting for size/strength? Atm I just aim for 3k kcals a day, making sure to get over 200g protein per day. This puts me at about 500 above maintenance atm. I'd hate to see how quickly I'd put fat on if I did the 4/5/6k a day that some people on here do lol.

Kiff
03-13-2011, 03:57 PM
Two schools of thought from me, however i dont want to assume or pretend to know more than the guys that have already posted. So please feel free to ignore this.

1) Keep bulking, i honestly think you can squeeze a lot more muscle onto your frame, especially after meeting you, you dont look fat, anywhere near it for that matter. You have a stocky frame, if you start dieting now as your strength has just started to sky rocket you risk undoing good work if you dont do it very VERY carefully, no offence to Rory and f=ma but they are very good at what they do and have a lot of experience, i think you would be risking derailling your confidence and your progress too much if you diet, and get it wrong, and you may, now...

2)If you are unhappy in your skin then absoloutly go on a diet. Do no hesitate, no point being unhappy, life is too short, however, i am not sure if you would be happy with what you cut down to at your current build/weight. Leave it a few months, hide some more muscle under that small layer of fat then rip it all out for the summer.

Just my 2c :)

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 04:06 PM
Nice one mate, really appreciate the input.

Right... looks like general consensus is to keep on going...

I'm sure that if I keep bulking for another two or three months or so, it'll give me time to put a whole lot more meat on me.

And as f=ma says, I can use that time to learn how to diet properly, when the time comes.

Cheers for all the opinions, guys - it's helped me make my mind up.

geordie1986
03-13-2011, 04:43 PM
this question always seems to come up every now and then, and know one can really answer it for your its all personnel preference and down to what your happy with. Me personally . . . . id shave it :)

Off Road
03-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Keep the hair Gazzy...not every girl likes the metro look...some still like their men to look manly.

GazzyG
03-13-2011, 04:51 PM
Keep the hair Gazzy...not every girl likes the metro look...some still like their men to look manly.

Ta OR!

I get the feeling that I wouldn't fit in well in America, lol.

Off Road
03-13-2011, 04:59 PM
I get the feeling that I wouldn't fit in well in America, lol.
Probably not with the new Abercrombie generation - lol

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 05:14 PM
The greeks didn't carve their statues with hair all over them...

Dan Fanelli
03-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Are you currently doing any form of conditioning or cardio? If not, clean up your diet a bit and do two HIIT sessions per week along with fasted morning walking whenever possible. You should be able to adjust the volume/frequency of your strength training to allow this, while continuing to make progress in all areas.

And a little trim wouldn't hurt.

dynamo
03-13-2011, 05:37 PM
The greeks didn't carve their statues with hair all over them...

point of diminishing returns, it would've just not been worth it. besides over the past 2000 years maybe it just fell off lol


P.S. I'd just keep bulking, get really strong, and who cares about recomping, thats tedious. You can definitely add more muscle without adding much more fat then you might just end up where you want to be. Just eat responsibly.

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 06:00 PM
point of diminishing returns, it would've just not been worth it. besides over the past 2000 years maybe it just fell off lol




http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050103/gallery/david_zoom.jpg

:)

f=ma
03-13-2011, 06:16 PM
small package. must be an italian thing

Behemoth
03-13-2011, 06:40 PM
quads are lacking

Goll65
03-13-2011, 07:23 PM
Try to eat enough calories to gain muscle but keep them clean the added muscle itself will increase your metabolism if your genes are good u could kill 2 birds with one stone

im not gonna comment on what u should do with your body hair but if u leave it why even go on a cutting cycle u wont be able to see anything

Off Road
03-13-2011, 07:36 PM
The Greeks were...well...errrr...uhhh...we won't go there.

RichMcGuire
03-13-2011, 07:48 PM
In my opinion, you wouldn't look better with slightly more muscle and more body fat. I think you'd see a bigger difference getting to 10% bf or whatever and then slowly gaining from that point. You might be more likely to add excess Calories towards muscle that way also. If you don't want to measure body fat on a future bulk, just go by the mirror and a simple waist pinch on the fattest area on your stomach. Those will be good indicators of what you're gaining. Of course, not trying to gain 2lbs a week or 10 lbs a month or whatever absurd number is a good idea too.

If all you care about is strength, then eat on.

Off Road
03-13-2011, 07:54 PM
Gain more muscle and maintain fat...you will eventually lower your bodyfat percentage and gain asthetics.

RichMcGuire
03-13-2011, 07:59 PM
Gain more muscle and maintain fat...you will eventually lower your bodyfat percentage and gain asthetics.

Are you talking about aiming for a target bodyweight / body comp?

Off Road
03-13-2011, 08:36 PM
No, I'm talking about gaining muscle and keeping fat gains to a minimum.

RichMcGuire
03-13-2011, 08:39 PM
Ah..I agree with that also. I still think it would work better after starting at a lower bf though.

Kiff
03-14-2011, 01:07 AM
Ah..I agree with that also. I still think it would work better after starting at a lower bf though.

He did start at low bf % so why go backwards? After only 6 months of lifting surely cutting or 'starting at a lower bf% is going to be detrimental to his strength gain an at this level could well undo most of his work to date?

chevelle2291
03-14-2011, 02:44 AM
Ah..I agree with that also. I still think it would work better after starting at a lower bf though.

I agree here.

Gazzy, it *appears* (we'd need a more comprehensive before pic) that you've gained a good amount of mass, but you could most definitely cut as you aren't very lean now. If you are training for aesthetic purposes I'd probably cut down to lean bodyfat levels (not gonna put a number on it--just visible relaxed abs or some other visual indicator of leanness) then build back up using either a slower approach or meticulously tracking your diet. You'd probably be very happy with the results of a leaner bulk--one where you track everything you eat and get 1.5 x bw in grams of protein every day.


He did start at low bf % so why go backwards? After only 6 months of lifting surely cutting or 'starting at a lower bf% is going to be detrimental to his strength gain an at this level could well undo most of his work to date?

He's not at a low bodyfat now. It's not going backwards as long as he is meticulous--there's not going to be muscle loss if he gets enough protein in and tracks his food intake using a scale. Yes, his strength gains will go backwards but that's usually due to lack of carbs/energy to lift heavy and progressively. He'll bounce back in no time. afterwards. Look at what happens in Rory and Tim's journals.

It all depends on what you train for. If you train to be that guy that turns heads at the beach I'd cut, but if you are training for strength then ya eat away. But then again, I hate fat. p

NickAus
03-14-2011, 03:23 AM
This thread makes me feel fat!

GazzyG
03-14-2011, 04:57 AM
Cheers everyone.

Really got a lot to think about now, haha.

I think what I'm going to do is just keep bulking for another couple of months, see what gains in strength and size I can make then, then do a bit of a fat trim ready for the summer. Thanks for all the input everybody, it's really been much appreciated.

Gaz

GazzyG
03-14-2011, 05:05 AM
This thread makes me feel fat!

Hah! Sorry bud.

I know I'm not really fat - but I'm 5'6''. It's a blessing and a curse - when I put any meat on, it shows, but if I put any fat on, it also shows.

RichMcGuire
03-14-2011, 06:35 AM
He did start at low bf % so why go backwards? After only 6 months of lifting surely cutting or 'starting at a lower bf% is going to be detrimental to his strength gain an at this level could well undo most of his work to date?

are you serious?

He started at a low bf%...ok.. I'll buy that. But he is not at a lower bodyfat % NOW. Why add to the fat gain for only a small amount of additional muscle? Why partion less Calories towards muscle and more towards fat? If it were me, I'd want to get leaner so my next bulk was even more successful rather than add 20 more lbs of fat for a cool 5-10 lbs of muscle. Undoing anything he accomplished is going to come down to user error and not the apporach itself.

And like I said, if all he cares about is strength - fine - eat your heart out.

mchicia1
03-14-2011, 08:09 AM
are you serious?

He started at a low bf%...ok.. I'll buy that. But he is not at a lower bodyfat % NOW. Why add to the fat gain for only a small amount of additional muscle? Why partion less Calories towards muscle and more towards fat? If it were me, I'd want to get leaner so my next bulk was even more successful rather than add 20 more lbs of fat for a cool 5-10 lbs of muscle. Undoing anything he accomplished is going to come down to user error and not the apporach itself.

And like I said, if all he cares about is strength - fine - eat your heart out.

Quote from Dante on bulking/cutting. I personally have no opinion because I have never cut before, but what he is saying is part of the reason I haven't cut yet.

If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?!

Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!)

Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!
If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.
You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a ****load of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that

GazzyG
03-14-2011, 08:25 AM
Mchicia - thanks for that post.

Cardio is something I'm definitely not afraid of - when I was in the TA (Army Reserves, for you yank types), I used to run a mile and a half every morning at a fast pace. If adding a bit of fasted cardio each day would allow me to keep gaining but go someway towards keeping the bodyfat at bay, then it's definitely something I'd be willing to try.

Kiff
03-14-2011, 08:36 AM
Richie, I was deadly serious, michcia you have elaborated my point and more in a way I didn't manage too :-) ty!

mchicia1
03-14-2011, 09:15 AM
Mchicia - thanks for that post.

Cardio is something I'm definitely not afraid of - when I was in the TA (Army Reserves, for you yank types), I used to run a mile and a half every morning at a fast pace. If adding a bit of fasted cardio each day would allow me to keep gaining but go someway towards keeping the bodyfat at bay, then it's definitely something I'd be willing to try.

Try the morning cardio fasted with a BCAA shake prior.

It really depends on your goals...for me I would rather be ****ing massive with some body fat so I look great in clothing (and ok without clothes). One day I will do a cut and then start back over and "bulk" the right way with the cardio and the carb cutoffs. I am just not where I want to be strength wise yet though and if I restrict calories my strength drops dramatically.

On the flip side, some guys just want to be lean year round...so they don't mind the slow muscular gain.

GazzyG
03-14-2011, 09:28 AM
Try the morning cardio fasted with a BCAA shake prior.

It really depends on your goals...for me I would rather be ****ing massive with some body fat so I look great in clothing (and ok without clothes). One day I will do a cut and then start back over and "bulk" the right way with the cardio and the carb cutoffs. I am just not where I want to be strength wise yet though and if I restrict calories my strength drops dramatically.

On the flip side, some guys just want to be lean year round...so they don't mind the slow muscular gain.

Thanks mate.

Aye, I don't mind a little bit of bodyfat - visible abs is not an absolute priority for me. And yeah, I like the attention that the t-shirts tight across the chest and arms brings. Also - I don't want to risk losing my strength. I'm not a bodybuilder by any means - I lift for the feeling of getting stronger. Beating last week's lifts is important to me.

HOWEVER I also enjoy feeling trim and in shape. I know that if I don't make a little change somewhere, then my bodyfat will get to the point where I'm uncomfortable with it.

It sounds like I want to have my cake AND eat it (in a manner of speaking). But at the end of the day, why shouldn't I? Our chosen sport of lifting is meant to bring us all-round happiness.

Your previous post makes most sense to me. It seems a way to limit fat gain without hindering my strength gains too much. A fasted run, thrice weekly, with a BCAA shake just prior will be added to the mix as of this week. Decision made. I might look into some green tea as well, though I don't know whether there's much merit to its fat burning properties - anyone care to shed some light on it please?

I will keep peeps updated over the weeks with how things progress - we have starting pics now, so changes will be easier to notice.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's take on things.

mchicia1
03-14-2011, 11:09 AM
Thanks mate.

Aye, I don't mind a little bit of bodyfat - visible abs is not an absolute priority for me. And yeah, I like the attention that the t-shirts tight across the chest and arms brings. Also - I don't want to risk losing my strength. I'm not a bodybuilder by any means - I lift for the feeling of getting stronger. Beating last week's lifts is important to me.

HOWEVER I also enjoy feeling trim and in shape. I know that if I don't make a little change somewhere, then my bodyfat will get to the point where I'm uncomfortable with it.

It sounds like I want to have my cake AND eat it (in a manner of speaking). But at the end of the day, why shouldn't I? Our chosen sport of lifting is meant to bring us all-round happiness.

Your previous post makes most sense to me. It seems a way to limit fat gain without hindering my strength gains too much. A fasted run, thrice weekly, with a BCAA shake just prior will be added to the mix as of this week. Decision made. I might look into some green tea as well, though I don't know whether there's much merit to its fat burning properties - anyone care to shed some light on it please?

I will keep peeps updated over the weeks with how things progress - we have starting pics now, so changes will be easier to notice.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's take on things.

Green tea has thermogenic properties, that is why it is said it *may* help promote fat burning. It simply raises your body temperature. I use it for different reasons...as a pre-workout stimulant.

chevelle2291
03-14-2011, 02:20 PM
Quote from Dante on bulking/cutting. I personally have no opinion because I have never cut before, but what he is saying is part of the reason I haven't cut yet.

If i never hear these words again in my life it will be too soon. I cringe everytime i hear someone (straight from bb.com) say "im coming off a bulker and now im doing a cutter"..What the hell is that?..that is the most idiotic concept ever! So what your doing is taking 2 steps forward for 4 months and then 1.5 steps backward for 4 months and repeating over and over? Talk about a waste of valuable time! Half your freaking year is gone to hell because your cutting for half of it and gaining no muscle. How bout a novel concept for you? How bout getting dramatically larger over time with huge food (protein) intake and super heavy training but adhering to carb cuttoffs and doing cardio (for increasing hunger and keeping bodyfat at bay reasons) so that you stay lean!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz, might that be a better way?!

Bulker: An Excuse to become a fat **** for the sake of beleiving your putting on muscle mass to others and yourself (and you probably are but at a 50/50 ratio of muscle to fat--wow thats awesome!)

Cutter: 3-5 months of wasted muscle building time (trust me youll be building very little muscle mass during this) in the quest of turning yourself back from a fat slob you turned yourself into to someone presentable.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!
If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those "cutting cycles" adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting--one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that--by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becomeing a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)....See its not that hard, just think it out....but most of all dont waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward....this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say "cutter" or "bulker" again on this board, you get the official title of "bodybuilding.com guy", like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you dont forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.
You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually beleive that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a ****load of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesnt have to do cardio. Thats another story I have to write about one of these days--Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me...."I just cant eat enough"....I ask him "are you doing cardio?", and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks "why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough".....BINGO!!!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street--increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa's and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, youll be starving. Which leads me to getting off this computer because im starving.I wrote this very fast because im late--so sorry bout that

Mike, while I agree with Dante on just about everything (SURPRISE!), I don't think Dante's words correlate to Gazzy's situation. Gazzy (no offense) is just not very lean now and the odds of him gaining lean mass without following an excellent macro breakdown and counting calories errday are very slim. While I think Dante's advice on fasted cardio while bulking is EXCELLENT for the majority of trainers who are somewhat lean (12-14, some definition, abdominal outline, etc), I don't see it working that well in Gazzy's current situation. Dante's approach would be excellent AFTER Gazzy has cut down if Gazzy cares about aesthetics. But, I just don't see it working for Gazzy here. A short cut (maybe 6-8 weeks) done with precision will leave Gazzy looking pretty damn good and set him up for an excellent leaner bulk either during or after summer.

Gazzy has stated that he does not consider himself fat, but that he has "a bit of a gut." To me, that shows that his current bodyfat levels are not to his liking and a cut is in order.


Mchicia - thanks for that post.

Cardio is something I'm definitely not afraid of - when I was in the TA (Army Reserves, for you yank types), I used to run a mile and a half every morning at a fast pace. If adding a bit of fasted cardio each day would allow me to keep gaining but go someway towards keeping the bodyfat at bay, then it's definitely something I'd be willing to try.

Fasted cardio does seem to have some sort of ability to help partition calories better, but it's not a miracle worker. You aren't going to gain muscle and lose fat if that's what you are thinking just by adding in some cardio.


Try the morning cardio fasted with a BCAA shake prior.

It really depends on your goals...for me I would rather be ****ing massive with some body fat so I look great in clothing (and ok without clothes). One day I will do a cut and then start back over and "bulk" the right way with the cardio and the carb cutoffs. I am just not where I want to be strength wise yet though and if I restrict calories my strength drops dramatically.

On the flip side, some guys just want to be lean year round...so they don't mind the slow muscular gain.

Exactly, Gazzy's approach is going to depend on what he values in training. Yes, bulking through the summer will leave him with some more muscle mass to work with and his strength will continue to improve, but he is not going to be impressing anybody at the beach or in any other shirtless environment (sorry Gazzy, not trying to be a dick). Also, he is approaching some pretty high levels of bodyfat and for many it gets harder to gain lean size as bodyfat levels start to rise.


Thanks mate.

Aye, I don't mind a little bit of bodyfat - visible abs is not an absolute priority for me. And yeah, I like the attention that the t-shirts tight across the chest and arms brings. Also - I don't want to risk losing my strength. I'm not a bodybuilder by any means - I lift for the feeling of getting stronger. Beating last week's lifts is important to me.

HOWEVER I also enjoy feeling trim and in shape. I know that if I don't make a little change somewhere, then my bodyfat will get to the point where I'm uncomfortable with it.

It sounds like I want to have my cake AND eat it (in a manner of speaking). But at the end of the day, why shouldn't I? Our chosen sport of lifting is meant to bring us all-round happiness.

Your previous post makes most sense to me. It seems a way to limit fat gain without hindering my strength gains too much. A fasted run, thrice weekly, with a BCAA shake just prior will be added to the mix as of this week. Decision made. I might look into some green tea as well, though I don't know whether there's much merit to its fat burning properties - anyone care to shed some light on it please?

I will keep peeps updated over the weeks with how things progress - we have starting pics now, so changes will be easier to notice.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's take on things.

If you are looking to be big in clothes and are okay with the higher bodyfat percentage then continue to bulk--nothing wrong with that. The ONE thing I would say, though, is that your strength WILL come back and you WILL be stronger than before on your next bulk as long as you are training properly and nutrition is in order. Strength is not gone forever after a cut. Sure, it might take you longer to hit 405 on a deadlift with a few cutting cycles, but you'll probably look better than the guys who's 220 at 20% pulling 455-500. It all depends on what you value--aesthetics or strength.


Green tea has thermogenic properties, that is why it is said it *may* help promote fat burning. It simply raises your body temperature. I use it for different reasons...as a pre-workout stimulant.

Does green tea really work that well? I haven't heard anything miraculous about it...any links?

chevelle2291
03-14-2011, 03:14 PM
This is timely:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_perfect_body_fat_percentage

Shelby is one of the best trainers in the world and is used for contest prep and gaining phases by guys all over.

RichMcGuire
03-14-2011, 03:19 PM
Richie, I was deadly serious, michcia you have elaborated my point and more in a way I didn't manage too :-) ty!

Richie? Are you always this disrespectful when you make useless posts or did you honestly fail to read richmcguire? Im honestly curious. :)

Kiff
03-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Richie? Are you always this disrespectful when you make useless posts or did you honestly fail to read richmcguire? Im honestly curious. :)

Apologies for the typo.

I dont think my post was useless at all. However we are clearly not going to agree on this. I think claiming i am being disrespectful to anyone is a little harsh, i have my point of view, that never claimed to be on anything more than my own experience, and the OP is aware of this fact. Therefore he can base his evaluation on the reliability of evidence i present accordingly.

This is all abstract to the point anwyay. Gazzy good luck one thing i am sure Rich and myself will both agree on is that you should do whatever makes you feel happy in your own skin.

RichMcGuire
03-14-2011, 03:47 PM
Apologies for the typo.

I dont think my post was useless at all. However we are clearly not going to agree on this. I think claiming i am being disrespectful to anyone is a little harsh, i have my point of view, that never claimed to be on anything more than my own experience, and the OP is aware of this fact. Therefore he can base his evaluation on the reliability of evidence i present accordingly.

This is all abstract to the point anwyay. Gazzy good luck one thing i am sure Rich and myself will both agree on is that you should do whatever makes you feel happy in your own skin.

Apology accepted. I meant useless when you called me Richie. We can agree to disagree. Sorry to jump down your throat.

Off Road
03-14-2011, 03:55 PM
These threads crack me up. You will always have the lean guys saying to "cut" and the huskier guys saying to 'keep gaining". There is absolutely no right or wrong answer, just a whole lot of useless opinions (mine included). Gazzy, I wish you luck with whatever road you choose.

Kiff
03-14-2011, 04:00 PM
These threads crack me up. You will always have the lean guys saying to "cut" and the huskier guys saying to 'keep gaining". There is absolutely no right or wrong answer, just a whole lot of useless opinions (mine included). Gazzy, I wish you luck with whatever road you choose.

Just stay Off the Road hey mate :indian:

GazzyG
03-14-2011, 04:00 PM
These threads crack me up. You will always have the lean guys saying to "cut" and the huskier guys saying to 'keep gaining". There is absolutely no right or wrong answer, just a whole lot of useless opinions (mine included). Gazzy, I wish you luck with whatever road you choose.

Thanks, OR.

My problem is I'm too easily influenced.

I think, with it being a three months or so yet till sunbathing season, I might give this 3 days of fasted BCAA cardio a go, along with cleaning up my macros a little bit.

I'll take pics again after one month of this.

If there's no big difference, that still gives me plenty of time to do a small cut before the summer to trim up a little.

chevelle2291
03-14-2011, 04:24 PM
Thanks, OR.

My problem is I'm too easily influenced.

I think, with it being a three months or so yet till sunbathing season, I might give this 3 days of fasted BCAA cardio a go, along with cleaning up my macros a little bit.

I'll take pics again after one month of this.

If there's no big difference, that still gives me plenty of time to do a small cut before the summer to trim up a little.

Not a bad idea, just remember that to look good for summer you really have to start cutting before summer i.e. in April or early May.

RichMcGuire
03-14-2011, 05:05 PM
These threads crack me up. You will always have the lean guys saying to "cut" and the huskier guys saying to 'keep gaining". There is absolutely no right or wrong answer, just a whole lot of useless opinions (mine included). Gazzy, I wish you luck with whatever road you choose.

Very good point.

I think a lot of time the huskier guys are just looking for strength and the leaner ones are training more to look good. (yes I know being strong is required for both)

So youll always get both sides of the coin.

f=ma
03-14-2011, 05:14 PM
too fat! too thin! what to do

chevelle2291
03-14-2011, 05:33 PM
small package. must be an italian thing

Or it was cold out.


:p