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View Full Version : raw bench program...i need one..



thewicked
05-04-2011, 12:06 PM
bench is stagnant..it climbs..peaks..then bottoms out...no matter what program I try I always get to 370 then end back down around 340-350 no matter what I try. Shoulders are real week so I am attacking those but beyond that...nada.

vdizenzo
05-04-2011, 12:20 PM
What programs have you used?

thewicked
05-04-2011, 01:13 PM
lighter version of westside since I'm raw and drug free

5/3/1

and various sheiko programs...all work great...then I hit a wall and bottom back out. This has happened for years.

mchicia1
05-04-2011, 02:28 PM
My bench is lower than yours, but to get it where it was I did 30 pounds in 30 days listed on here. My bench went from 300 to 320 in exactly 30 days.

Everytime I have run 5/3/1, my bench has gone down.

kingns
05-04-2011, 04:35 PM
I think westside, with lots of exercises you never do rotated in. And you dont need to modify westside stuff if your raw or drug free.

Tim K
05-04-2011, 05:16 PM
One of the easiest ways to increase bench is to gain weight - if that is an option for you.

Travis Bell
05-04-2011, 07:28 PM
I And you dont need to modify westside stuff if your raw or drug free.

^This

9 times out of 10 guys are just picking the wrong ME exercises and doing their DE work incorrectly.

shocker4221
05-04-2011, 08:02 PM
My bench is lower than yours, but to get it where it was I did 30 pounds in 30 days listed on here. My bench went from 300 to 320 in exactly 30 days.

Everytime I have run 5/3/1, my bench has gone down.

I'm doing the same 30 day workout because of my bench stalling for a long time. After you did the program for 30 days, what did you follow it up with and did you maintain that strength?

shocker4221
05-04-2011, 08:05 PM
^This

9 times out of 10 guys are just picking the wrong ME exercises and doing their DE work incorrectly.

I truly enjoyed doing a WS routine because of the different lifts, use of bands or chains, etc. but still have hit a wall with my bench. You mention a possibility is doing their DE work wrong, what exactly do you mean? Not being fast enough with reps or using too much weight and not having the speed?

Learning2Lift
05-04-2011, 10:03 PM
Westside has worked for me raw and added nearly 60lbs to my bench in a year. For DE Bench speed /form is more important than weight. Try changing ur grip during your DE as well as cycle band tension.

Travis Bell
05-05-2011, 03:24 AM
I truly enjoyed doing a WS routine because of the different lifts, use of bands or chains, etc. but still have hit a wall with my bench. You mention a possibility is doing their DE work wrong, what exactly do you mean? Not being fast enough with reps or using too much weight and not having the speed?

What Tyler said about technique being important is very true. If you are using sloppy form it's not going to transfer over to your ME stuff very well

The other thing, besides using the three grips, is changing the band tension and bar weight or even using straight weight

But yes, most people go far too heavy.

vdizenzo
05-05-2011, 05:31 AM
This is all very good advice regarding WS. All of my 600 raw benches were hit using a conjugate method. Like Travis said, exercise choice is very important. That's not just for your ME, but supplemental and assitance exercises are important also. There are other things to consider such as form, nutrition, and recovery.

mchicia1
05-05-2011, 08:18 AM
I'm doing the same 30 day workout because of my bench stalling for a long time. After you did the program for 30 days, what did you follow it up with and did you maintain that strength?

LOL I followed it up with DC training and I wasn't ready for it AT ALL, so my bench went back down..then I went back to 5/3/1 and it went back down even more. Bench is a movement that I have to train frequently, or it goes down. On 5/3/1 it was only once every 9th day...in DC training it was one of my 3 chest movements, so it was literally only on the monday of week 1 and the friday of week 2, so not enough frequency.

Now I train it every upper body day (twice a week) with low volume and it is just about back to 320. I just do medium weight on the first day and go for a heavy double on the second day, then follow it up with my hypertrophy work on the incline. It has been working well so far. I wouldn't hesitate to do 30 lbs/30 days again though, I would just be smarter about which program I followed it up with.

johnnyo_99
05-05-2011, 09:51 AM
in regards to having to much weight on DE days, what is an example bar weight + band/chain combo that should be used for a a 250 lb 1RM bencher such as myself? I find the same difficulties and I tend to believe I go too heavy on DE days...

on my ME days I rotate the following bench variations: incline, flat, 2-board. which is based on vincent dizenzo's bench routine.

AdamBAG
05-05-2011, 10:14 AM
I cannot disagree more about the raw/drug-free arguments with regard to westside. Those are just excuses. I'm drug free and totalled elite training with WSB methods. I've also improved my raw bench using westside methods.

As Travis and Vincent have said exercise selection is key. You have to find what exercises bring your bench press up.

As far as dynamic effort goes I totally gauge this on bar speed. My best raw bench is 385 and I very, very rarely take the bar weight over 185 (plus bands/chains) for speed work. Most times I'm in the 30-40% range. I don't force myself to use 50% bar weight if it isn't going to move fast enough.

Again, using drugs, or a lack of drugs, as the reason why a program doesn't work for you is just an excuse. I'm not singling anybody out on this, just stating my opinion.

shocker4221
05-05-2011, 11:11 AM
I thought on DE days it was necessary to use between 50 - 60% of a 1 RM. I always changed changed grips every other set but haven't used bands while doing lighter weights, maybe that could be a problem? Using a WS routine never gets boring because of the constant change, I think I either wasn't using it to it's potential or have a mental block.

rockofages
05-05-2011, 12:36 PM
I thought on DE days it was necessary to use between 50 - 60% of a 1 RM. I always changed changed grips every other set but haven't used bands while doing lighter weights, maybe that could be a problem? Using a WS routine never gets boring because of the constant change, I think I either wasn't using it to it's potential or have a mental block.

There is nothing wrong with using lighter weights for DE work. I started with 135 and eventually over time worked up to 60% straight weight. 135 would have been 40% or so. Get a feel for the bar speed when it starts to move fast all sets increase the weight. Then when that weight moves just as fast as a lighter weight increase etc... When using bands or chains just adjust the weight you think is correct and when that moves fast with good technique increase weight.

joey54
05-05-2011, 02:29 PM
Solely to provide another option, not saying better, worse, or equal; have you checked out the juggernaut method? Provides more volume than 5/3/1 and allows for more flexibility with working weights.

Disclaimer: I am a very poor bencher with a gym best 315 and competition best 270. At the least though, you might want to read about the juggernaut methodology to enhance your training knowledge.

joey54
05-05-2011, 06:06 PM
I was thinking about this too. What is your current back work like?

vdizenzo
05-06-2011, 05:49 AM
For my first 600 I started my training cycle with 185 for DE work. I added weight little by little, after sets 3 and 6. By the time the meet came over the 16 week training cycle I was using 365 for DE. I am working on a three week wave system for DE currently. Upon completion I am going to try and put something concrete together for the masses.

AdamBAG
05-06-2011, 07:47 AM
For my first 600 I started my training cycle with 185 for DE work. I added weight little by little, after sets 3 and 6. By the time the meet came over the 16 week training cycle I was using 365 for DE. I am working on a three week wave system for DE currently. Upon completion I am going to try and put something concrete together for the masses.

Vincent, I would love to see an article/outline of your DE work. Or what you would suggest at least.

vdizenzo
05-06-2011, 08:48 AM
Vincent, I would love to see an article/outline of your DE work. Or what you would suggest at least.

I have been posting my training sessions in my log. I have been making it super easy by putting up the entire template for each week. I have posted up 5 weeks so far. Check it out there and ask questions about it in my log.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I post my log for other people to learn from. I keep my own version on paper. I read many logs to get/steal ideas and I am a pretty accomplished lifter.

I plan on writing a book on raw benching this summer.

AdamBAG
05-06-2011, 08:52 AM
I have been posting my training sessions in my log. I have been making it super easy by putting up the entire template for each week. I have posted up 5 weeks so far. Check it out there and ask questions about it in my log.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I post my log for other people to learn from. I keep my own version on paper. I read many logs to get/steal ideas and I am a pretty accomplished lifter.

I plan on writing a book on raw benching this summer.

I actually read your log on EFS (sometimes on here) and I have been copying/imitating what you do for a while. I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying you were going to write an article about dynamic bench training.

I really like how you have been outlining the workouts week by week. Seeing the bigger picture helps.

Falcon63
05-06-2011, 01:29 PM
There's no universal routine that works for everyone. It depends on a lot of factors. Me, personally, I just pick a weight (225, and with your max, you're about where I am), and I just rep it out as many times as I can for about 5 sets, mixing in some dips and pullups in between, and I always pick a target number of reps to do, and force rep if I can't get there.

I'm not saying it works for everyone (so you 5000000lb. professional lifters don't come in here and say, "oh, you're wrong!"), but I've been gaining 5 pounds on my max every 2-4 days, and adding a rep or two per week to 225.

mchicia1
05-06-2011, 01:37 PM
There's no universal routine that works for everyone. It depends on a lot of factors. Me, personally, I just pick a weight (225, and with your max, you're about where I am), and I just rep it out as many times as I can for about 5 sets, mixing in some dips and pullups in between, and I always pick a target number of reps to do, and force rep if I can't get there.

I'm not saying it works for everyone (so you 5000000lb. professional lifters don't come in here and say, "oh, you're wrong!"), but I've been gaining 5 pounds on my max every 2-4 days, and adding a rep or two per week to 225.

Here's a friendly challenge...post a vid of you doing 350-370 or whatever your max is.

Falcon63
05-06-2011, 02:23 PM
Here's a friendly challenge...post a vid of you doing 350-370 or whatever your max is.

What, you don't believe me? Or is a like a friendly competition thing you were implying?

mchicia1
05-06-2011, 02:39 PM
What, you don't believe me? Or is a like a friendly competition thing you were implying?

I don't believe you. OP has gotten great advice from 500+ pound benchers...he is obviously in the powerlifting forum asking advice on how to increase his 1RM, then he gets advice to put 225 on the bar and do a bunch of reps to increase his 1RM.

There is not 1 successful bencher who will do a routine that you suggested to bring up their 1RM for a meet, or otherwise.

Falcon63
05-06-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't believe you. OP has gotten great advice from 500+ pound benchers...he is obviously in the powerlifting forum asking advice on how to increase his 1RM, then he gets advice to put 225 on the bar and do a bunch of reps to increase his 1RM.

There is not 1 successful bencher who will do a routine that you suggested to bring up their 1RM for a meet, or otherwise.

Well, no need to believe me. My routine (that breaks many weightlifting rules), works for me, and I'm pretty happy with my strength gains at only 18. And I'm not saying any advice on here is wrong, because it's probably not, but benching 500 pounds doesn't mean that you know more or less about lifting than someone else. Just saying what works for me, whether you believe me or not. Take it or leave it.

mchicia1
05-06-2011, 03:12 PM
Well, no need to believe me. My routine (that breaks many weightlifting rules), works for me, and I'm pretty happy with my strength gains at only 18. And I'm not saying any advice on here is wrong, because it's probably not, but benching 500 pounds doesn't mean that you know more or less about lifting than someone else. Just saying what works for me, whether you believe me or not. Take it or leave it.


but I've been gaining 5 pounds on my max every 2-4 days,.

So you are bringing 225 to failure and post failure with forced reps, then you are testing your 1 rep max every 2-4 days and it is going up 5 pounds.

You made this same comment a couple of weeks ago...so is your max 20 pounds higher already?

Falcon63
05-06-2011, 03:15 PM
So you are bringing 225 to failure and post failure with forced reps, then you are testing your 1 rep max every 2-4 days and it is going up 5 pounds.

You made this same comment a couple of weeks ago...so is your max 20 pounds higher already?
Like I said, you don't have to believe me. Obviously that's a rhetorical question, so I'm not gonna even bother answering that.

Off Road
05-06-2011, 03:54 PM
benching 500 pounds doesn't mean that you know more or less about lifting than someone else.
Seriously? Please stop while you are ahead.

Guys, either help the OP, or move it to chit-chat.

bighollow99
05-06-2011, 03:58 PM
use blocks great way to grow.

current bench 320lb

shocker4221
05-06-2011, 06:45 PM
For my first 600 I started my training cycle with 185 for DE work. I added weight little by little, after sets 3 and 6. By the time the meet came over the 16 week training cycle I was using 365 for DE. I am working on a three week wave system for DE currently. Upon completion I am going to try and put something concrete together for the masses.

I would definitely be interested in seeing what you come up with.