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alert20
06-05-2011, 06:03 AM
Is it still possible to build shoulders without overhead lifting?

Off Road
06-05-2011, 06:35 AM
Yes, lifts like bench press, bar dips, rowing, and laterals to different directions should do a decent enough job.

Bosch232
06-05-2011, 06:35 AM
Can you do dips, or is a shoulder injury preventing this?

A movement I've been liking lately (and I don't know if there's a specific name for it) it to lay on a 45 deg bench, facing down, and row dumb bells. Rear delts, man!

Tom Mutaffis
06-05-2011, 08:44 PM
Is it still possible to build shoulders without overhead lifting?

Yes - you could do side raises, front raises, upright rows, and rear deltoid work. To mix things up you can do a mix of free weight and machine (cable) work.

tom183
06-06-2011, 12:30 AM
Relevant thread:

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?140676-For-shoulders-all-you-need-is-lateral-raises.&highlight=all+you+need+lateral

mchicia1
06-06-2011, 07:47 AM
Wojo on his shoulder size:

http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=43794

"This exercise has helped my delt development the most - no question about it. I didn't even do any overhead presses for many years and only relied on these. "



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7z7dVxOH8w

Behemoth
06-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Lateral raises > an overhead lift IMO.

mchicia1
06-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Lateral raises > an overhead lift IMO.

I have puny side delts and strong front delts from doing only pressing movements for the last few years. I tried lateral raises last upper body workout. Using the form Wojo uses, I was only able to do them correctly with FIVE pounds. If you lift with your traps, it is an easy movement...I could probably do 10 times that weight...but if you really only lift with your shoulders, it is difficult.

4g64fiero
06-06-2011, 02:56 PM
I have puny side delts and strong front delts from doing only pressing movements for the last few years. I tried lateral raises last upper body workout. Using the form Wojo uses, I was only able to do them correctly with FIVE pounds. If you lift with your traps, it is an easy movement...I could probably do 10 times that weight...but if you really only lift with your shoulders, it is difficult.

I have been doing these for a while to achieve a more even developement of my shoulders. In about 3 months I have worked up to 30lbs hahaha......

cphafner
06-08-2011, 07:45 AM
Sure can. Go search for mountaindogg training article, not on ebb. John meadows talks about this exact topic.

joey54
06-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.

ZAR-FIT
06-08-2011, 11:11 AM
Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.

Perfectly Said Joey

mchicia1
06-08-2011, 11:14 AM
Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both though, advanced or not. I am just throwing them in for 1 set after my normal upper body days.

Dan Fanelli
06-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Food for thought. And I realize one can argue my use of using a pro as an example. I don't care. In my opinion Kevin Levrone Had the best shoulder development ever. Again in my opinion. That motherfucker did a lot of heavy overhead pressing, and just pressing in general.

If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.

Another thing to consider is that ohp is less likely to be done with an ego. A guy that is lifting 300lbs overhead knows he's strong. But there is a huge tendency with laterals for people to fling the weights around. You'll see tiny guys doing "strict" reps with 50s.

But this is not the debate here. That is a misuse of the exercise. Assuming you do both exercises correctly, it's hard to say one is better or worse. OHP allows the use of heavier weights and the possibility of lower reps. Low reps on laterals is a bad idea. Laterals have advantages, but the biggest one is targeting the shoulders for those that don't get enough of that from pressing.

IMO, this is how I'd break things down. If overhead pressing (or any pressing really) hits your delts hard and you can do it safely, then this is your best bet ALONE.

If OHP doesn't quite hit your delts hard enough (maybe it's more of a tricep exercise for you) then you should do some mix of laterals and pressing.

Lastly, if OHP bothers your shoulders, then work mainly just laterals.

Off Road
06-08-2011, 01:32 PM
If you feel you are at an advanced level and doing side lateral raises with super strict form is going to take you further, by all means go for it. If you aren't, start pressing something heavy over your fucking head.

Amen...

I was going to say something similar, but I get tired of sounding like a broken record sometimes.

4g64fiero
06-08-2011, 02:33 PM
I take a three pronged aproach to shoulders. I do laterals after free weight ohp because I dont feel like ohp actually hits the medial deltoids well. I treat the OHP as the main movement that I can go heavy on and use(~3x5) laterals as more of an accessory lift with more volume(~3x8). I get the rear delts with ( ~3x8) pendlay rows after bench on another day.

Is this a sensible approach to training delts? I have seen consistant progress....

mchicia1
06-08-2011, 02:47 PM
Another thing to consider is that ohp is less likely to be done with an ego. A guy that is lifting 300lbs overhead knows he's strong. But there is a huge tendency with laterals for people to fling the weights around. You'll see tiny guys doing "strict" reps with 50s.

But this is not the debate here. That is a misuse of the exercise. Assuming you do both exercises correctly, it's hard to say one is better or worse. OHP allows the use of heavier weights and the possibility of lower reps. Low reps on laterals is a bad idea.

IMO, this is how I'd break things down. If overhead pressing (or any pressing really) hits your delts hard and you can do it safely, then this is your best bet ALONE.

If OHP doesn't quite hit your delts hard enough (maybe it's more of a tricep exercise for you) then you should do some mix of laterals and pressing.

Lastly, if OHP bothers your shoulders, then work mainly just laterals.

@ Bold #1: Have you ever lifted in any commercial gym before? If so, how can you make that comment? I still have yet to see a person do a correct overhead press, seated or standing. It is usually ton of weight combined with 1/4 ROM. I literally saw a 160 pound kid the other day load up 225, SCREAM AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS, then unracked the bar and did 4 1/8 reps with two spotters. I see this stuff all the time. Very rare that a lifter will go full ROM on OHP.

@ Bold #2: I agree.

@ Bold #3: Disagree...it does not hurt at all to add laterals as a supplementary exercise to your presses. Targets completely different muscle fibers. Also, if you don't feel your OHP in your shoulders than you should reassess your form.


Amen...
I was going to say something similar, but I get tired of sounding like a broken record sometimes.

Again, if you want to look like a bodybuilder, you better train like one. HOWEVER, I do not think you should drop a pressing movement for a lateral movement unless you are an advanced guy like Wojo who has most likely exhausted all his progress on pressing movements. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with adding them as a supplementary exercise at the end of an upper body workout.

joey54
06-08-2011, 03:35 PM
I take a three pronged aproach to shoulders. I do laterals after free weight ohp because I dont feel like ohp actually hits the medial deltoids well. I treat the OHP as the main movement that I can go heavy on and use(~3x5) laterals as more of an accessory lift with more volume(~3x8). I get the rear delts with ( ~3x8) pendlay rows after bench on another day.

Is this a sensible approach to training delts? I have seen consistant progress....

If making consistent progress, do whatever you have been doing. That is always the most important thing provided you are using proper form and not hurting yourself.

joey54
06-08-2011, 03:37 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both though, advanced or not. I am just throwing them in for 1 set after my normal upper body days.

Completely agree. I include both in my training right now as well. There were times when I did laterals first and presses second.

joey54
06-08-2011, 03:43 PM
Also, my post was in no way directed to anyone posting here. Just providing the other side of the coin so to speak. I have stated this before, one needs to find what works best for them. At the same time, and I have been guilty of this too, many think they are advanced and need to do special tweaks when all they really need to do is lift heavy and put their time in at the dinner table. The simplest approach is sometimes the best, but also isn't always the easiest.

I am ranting more than anything, but I certainly am not implying people here fit the description above. Just heed the advice of those like Dante Trudel and Jim Wendler. Have a purpose for doing an exercise and find the ones which work the best for your goals.

Now someone embed Levorne overheading 4 plates!

chevelle2291
06-08-2011, 03:49 PM
Now someone embed Levorne overheading 4 plates!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLhfcFpBlw&feature=related

Off Road
06-08-2011, 03:59 PM
Most of the pros that have switched over to isolation-only routines have already put in their time with the big compound lifts. They've built their foundation already.

mchicia1
06-08-2011, 04:19 PM
In before someone makes a smith machine comment.

Dan Fanelli
06-08-2011, 06:29 PM
@ Bold #1: Have you ever lifted in any commercial gym before? If so, how can you make that comment? I still have yet to see a person do a correct overhead press, seated or standing. It is usually ton of weight combined with 1/4 ROM. I literally saw a 160 pound kid the other day load up 225, SCREAM AT THE TOP OF HIS LUNGS, then unracked the bar and did 4 1/8 reps with two spotters. I see this stuff all the time. Very rare that a lifter will go full ROM on OHP.

@ Bold #2: I agree.

@ Bold #3: Disagree...it does not hurt at all to add laterals as a supplementary exercise to your presses. Targets completely different muscle fibers. Also, if you don't feel your OHP in your shoulders than you should reassess your form.



#1 - I train in a commercial gym and haven't really observed this. I rarely ever see guys doing ANY bb overhead pressing and almost all of them are doing full ROM. They are using a lot of leg drive for weigths that dont warrant it though.

But with laterals, Ive observed just about everyone going way to heavy and using way too much "english". They might as well do cleans or high pulls with a barbell.

#3 - Ya, probably wouldn't hurt, but if you dont need it, then I dont see any reason to throw them in there just for the hell of it. And the last part of this statement I disagree. Form can be a factor, just as individual biomecanics can as well. But if you are getting stronger and lifting heavy, I dont think this is the issue. Some lifts for some people are just not good for certain muscles. And I dont really see how laterals work different muscle fibers that OHP cant work.

chris mason
06-08-2011, 06:55 PM
What was the original question? Right, the answer is yes. I do almost nothing direct for shoulders and mine are pretty good sized. My training partner's are bigger and ditto for him. Nutshell, if you have a big bench you will have good shoulders.

With that said, why the question?

joey54
06-08-2011, 07:04 PM
What was the original question? Right, the answer is yes. I do almost nothing direct for shoulders and mine are pretty good sized. My training partner's are bigger and ditto for him. Nutshell, if you have a big bench you will have good shoulders.

With that said, why the question?

Another good point!

Off Road
06-08-2011, 09:34 PM
What was the original question? Right, the answer is yes. I do almost nothing direct for shoulders and mine are pretty good sized. My training partner's are bigger and ditto for him. Nutshell, if you have a big bench you will have good shoulders.

With that said, why the question?

But...but...but...that's not training like a bodybuilder :clown:

BTW, I agree completely.

joey54
06-08-2011, 09:39 PM
I just can't get over how heavy Levrone used to train for "slacking off" and only going hard a few months during the year for some of his pro career. How that guy didn't win at least one Olympia is a crime.

mchicia1
06-08-2011, 10:07 PM
But...but...but...that's not training like a bodybuilder :clown:

BTW, I agree completely.

OR, you lift consistently HARD for 20+ years like Chris has and you are going to have large shoulders. Has nothing to do with training like a bodybuilder or not. The fact still remains that if you want to look like a bodybuilder, you should train like one. There is no one that sets foot on stage competitively that does a 5 or 6 movement basic routine. There comes a time in one's training where you have to add some new things if you want to keep progressing.

Dan Fanelli
06-08-2011, 10:12 PM
[QUOTE=mchicia1;2481181] The fact still remains that if you want to look like a bodybuilder, you should train like one. QUOTE]

If you dont have the same drugs in your system that these bodybuilders are using, should you train like a bodybuilder nowadays or like a bodybuilder before steroids were around?

mchicia1
06-08-2011, 10:28 PM
There are plenty of natural bodybuilders who train like bodybuilders and don't train with 5-6 core lifts. You have to branch out at some point...powerlifters also do this. Look at westside and how they vary their movements to avoid stalling...same thing bodybuilders do, albeit they use a lot more machine work (NOTHING wrong with that). Look at Mason's DT training...same principle there. Tons of variation.

If you stay with the same 5-6 lifts forever, you are seriously handicapping yourself in the long run, for both strength, size, and aesthetics.

What happens when you stick with the same 5-6 lifts is that they stall FREQUENTLY over and over if you have any decent amount of poundage on the bar. What you do to keep progressing are things like deloads, resetting the weight, etc. If you keep deloading and simply resetting the weight over and over, yes you will probably blow past that plateau, but how much did you really gain in size if you were lifting the same or lighter weight for most of the year? Probably not much.

What would you rather do? Gain 30 pounds in your bench only in one year? Or gain 30 pounds on your bench while gaining 20 on your incline press while gaining 20 on your DB press while gaining 100 pounds on your hammer strength press?

Who do you think is going to the guy with more size and better aesthetics?

Off Road
06-08-2011, 11:53 PM
I think some people confuse the advice given to beginners and think we meant for everybody to train that way for the rest of their lives. Of course beginner, intermediate and advanced lifters should be doing things differently.

joey54
06-09-2011, 05:02 AM
[QUOTE=mchicia1;2481181] The fact still remains that if you want to look like a bodybuilder, you should train like one. QUOTE]

If you dont have the same drugs in your system that these bodybuilders are using, should you train like a bodybuilder nowadays or like a bodybuilder before steroids were around?

Steroids have always been around.

NickAus
06-09-2011, 05:53 AM
I do not have great shoulders at all but I worked up to a respectable seated barbell press yet it did little for my size.......when I started front and side raises I gained some size pretty quick.

IMO raises are good and cop a bad wrap and to be honest a lot of people Ive seen that think overhead presses are the only way to go do not have big shoulders.

Off Road
06-09-2011, 06:59 AM
I don't see a lot of posting about Bent Over Rear Laterals. These are the only type of laterals I do on a consistant basis. I think they do a nice job of keeping the shoulders balanced and healthy.

mchicia1
06-09-2011, 07:14 AM
I think some people confuse the advice given to beginners and think we meant for everybody to train that way for the rest of their lives. Of course beginner, intermediate and advanced lifters should be doing things differently.

Agree...

But that is mainly because we don't talk much about advanced stuff on here :). I have been trying to stir the pot in that respect because there aren't that many newbies anymore.

mchicia1
06-09-2011, 07:20 AM
I do not have great shoulders at all but I worked up to a respectable seated barbell press yet it did little for my size.......when I started front and side raises I gained some size pretty quick.

IMO raises are good and cop a bad wrap and to be honest a lot of people Ive seen that think overhead presses are the only way to go do not have big shoulders.

Thats interesting because you have a pretty ridiculous bench press yet still had to mix in laterals to add any size. Just goes to show everyone is different and in the end you really have to find what works for you.

Off Road
06-09-2011, 07:21 AM
I have been trying to stir the pot in that respect
I know that...and I try to stir it in the other direction :)

Dan Fanelli
06-09-2011, 09:08 AM
At mchicia - I was only asking, because it was my belief that in the pre steroids era of bodybuilding, guys pretty much just did basic barbell training. Now I know the argument will come up, that they don't compare to bb'ers nowadays, but is that the drugs, or the use of fancier training? Just playing devils advocate here.

@Joey- Really?

mchicia1
06-09-2011, 09:18 AM
At mchicia - I was only asking, because it was my belief that in the pre steroids era of bodybuilding, guys pretty much just did basic barbell training. Now I know the argument will come up, that they don't compare to bb'ers nowadays, but is that the drugs, or the use of fancier training? Just playing devils advocate here.

@Joey- Really?

No they still mixed in other movements, they just didn't have the same technology back then in terms of machines. They still did their bicep curls, tricep extensions, laterals, etc. The difference in size is no doubt from drugs though, no argument there. But the machines we have now adays simply gives you more options. They are beneficial for a lot of things...if you hit a big time stall, if you need to mix in a less demanding day in between very high intensity days, if you are training around an injury, etc.

I have had amazing gains on both my squat and deadlift after I threw in leg machine work in between those two workouts.

joey54
06-09-2011, 03:22 PM
At mchicia - I was only asking, because it was my belief that in the pre steroids era of bodybuilding, guys pretty much just did basic barbell training. Now I know the argument will come up, that they don't compare to bb'ers nowadays, but is that the drugs, or the use of fancier training? Just playing devils advocate here.

@Joey- Really?

Are you trying to be the Miz?

Or are your serious in not recognizing all those classic guys were also juicing?

chevelle2291
06-09-2011, 04:08 PM
Are you trying to be the Miz?

Or are your serious in not recognizing all those classic guys were also juicing?

http://vicorientation.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/AndHereWeGo.gif

Dan Fanelli
06-09-2011, 06:22 PM
Are you trying to be the Miz?

Or are your serious in not recognizing all those classic guys were also juicing?

Not sure who the Miz is..... But I was serious, I dont believe steroids have been around forever.

Off Road
06-09-2011, 06:23 PM
Even Jack Lalanne was juicing :)

joey54
06-09-2011, 06:48 PM
Not sure who the Miz is..... But I was serious, I dont believe steroids have been around forever.

Fanelli, I don't know what to make of you sometime. It's good to have you around.

NickAus
06-09-2011, 07:16 PM
Thats interesting because you have a pretty ridiculous bench press yet still had to mix in laterals to add any size. Just goes to show everyone is different and in the end you really have to find what works for you.

Thanks bro but the 525 bench was shirted.

Raw was 365@210.......nothing big really.

Still I did find raises helpful and nearly every guy I've seen training that has big delts does raises, that's just what I have seen.

Dan Fanelli
06-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Fanelli, I don't know what to make of you sometime. It's good to have you around.

Im glad to be here :)

Dan Fanelli
06-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Even Jack Lalanne was juicing :)

Best comment Ive seen in a long time...