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View Full Version : Compound MaxEffort Exersises, why only: Bench,squat,deadlift,Press? going nuts....



bertman
06-20-2011, 10:16 PM
Hi Guys

I'm bumping currently from Articel to articel on the internet...
5/3/1 ,WS4SB , and other raw strength programs (westside based)
...sorry for the bad English in advanced… its not my mother tongue

My Goal is to get "functional" raw strength. I'm not interest in Powerlifting or any type of specialization.
I could say that my general goal is a bit crossfit like. But I'm missing in crossfit allot of pieces like periodization for example...
My favorite way of training is so far the WS4SB from Joedefranco.

Anyway, now matter where I look I bump in to the same problem:

Question:
Why are Squat,Deadlift,Benchpress and Overhead-press the only exercises that are trained in a Maxeffort way?
Isn't a seated overhand Rows exactly the same as a Benchpress (compound muscle-amount wise), but just the other direction?
Same with the Overhead press and a chin-up.

Maybe its a stupid question and not important... But I'm new to the heavy strength world and I don't like to train in some way if I don't understand the logic behind it.
…It does not make sense to me to train the push-direction in a MaxEffort manner and use the Pull direction just as assistance.
Does this not produce unbalanced muscle Strength… or some sort of (I don’t know) unbalance?
And Why not even train Dips in a MaxEffort way? It’s a big compound exercise too. Right?
Or why not the other way around (Row as Maxeffort and Bench as Assistance? Mhhh….
Would it not be the best way to traing both Push and Pull in the same way?

What is the reason behind this. Why is a Bench-press more important than Row…or Chins vs.Press…?
IS it because of the intensity? SO that you could not do it anyway for all compounds (then I could rotate over weeks, maybe)... or something else?
Or is it because some people like some exercises more?
Cause I don't care about favorites...sticking to favorites equal to me as: “laziness in order to ovoid exercises that could improve weaknesses in your body”
So a absolute NoGo in terms of my overall functional Goal!

To round it up again ;) I don't understand why I should not pay 2 different compound exercises the same attention (maxEffort ) in training when the only differents is Push and Pull.

Please enlighten me here guys, I'm banging my head against the wall... but does not help... haha
Thx for any input :)

ps.: I know this section of the forum is for powerlifter... and I said this is not my goal to be. But I thought
If any, then you PF's should not the answers to my questions.

greets
bjoern

Mark!
06-21-2011, 01:33 AM
I'll try to provide an answer in my limited experience, it won't be the best, but it's my input. First off, welcome to the forums, don't mind the language, I think it's awesome having guys from all over around here.

The reason bench press, dead lifts and squats and performed as max effort movements are because that's what happens at meets. Think of it like this, you wouldn't see many soccer forwards practicing goalie, and you wouldn't see many goalies practicing penalty kicks (taking them). You use max effort movements that you're going to preform during competitions, the other work is accessory TO the big 3. If you're looking for functional strength, there's absolutely nothing wrong with not doing ME work with the big 3, and instead doing it on another compound movement, I know some crossfit guys are are strong, and I've never seen them do traditional bench presses, most are overhead presses and such, but bench pressing serves them no real purpose, as they don't compete. It's just my two cents and inexperienced opinion, so take it for what its worth. I'm sure someone else will chime in with a more detailed explanation as to why things are done the way they are.

Off Road
06-21-2011, 06:45 AM
Squats and deadlifts are the most result-producing lifts you can do, so it stands to reason that they are included in every program that centers around strength development. Throw in bench press and overhead presses and you have the majority of competition lifts in your workouts. Most of the strength programs you are reading about are heavily influenced by the competition lifts.

However, there is no reason you cannot train other lifts in the same manner. In fact, the guys that train with the conjugate method often use many different lifts in their Max Effort workouts. It just depends on what you see as a priority in your training. Most guys want their competition lifts to increase, so that's what they structure their training for. But there is no reason you cannot train chinups and rows (for example) in the same manner.

Falcon63
06-21-2011, 07:58 AM
No idea, so take it with a grain of salt, but aren't PCs up in that category too?

BloodandThunder
06-21-2011, 09:36 AM
There's nothing to say you can't take calf raises, seated rows, or bicep curls to a 1RM or any other variation in these lifts (donkey raises, etc), but these are lifts that are sparingly done or for hypertrophy reasons for powerlifters. They are used to gain mass, improve or change leverages, or to overcome weak points and prevent injuries, hence done at a higher rep scheme. Variations of the big three plus OH are done to elicit a response that will improve the 1RM in a squat/bench/DL. The longer the training history, the more variations and the more advanced (chains/bands/lightened method/contrasting method, etc) they might become too. They also have a higher impact upon the CNS and recovery.

For athletic purposes, the powerlifts and olympic lifts are still bread and butter for improving athleticism. Not to say chinups and rows aren't important, but they are most likely better suited to assistance work to improve the main lifts.

bertman
06-22-2011, 05:44 AM
thx for the feedback guys :)

For athletic purposes, the powerlifts and olympic lifts are still bread and butter for improving athleticism. Not to say chinups and rows aren't important, but they are most likely better suited to assistance work to improve the main lifts.

Right for powerlifting it makes sense. But not for funktional strenght... If I would get big and strong (and usualy very overweight) as a powerlifter I would not be able to climb a rope with just my hands. That would be for me a hit and miss.

When can someone start with Maxeffort training styles? If lets say a novices is starting at "Zero" How many month/years should somebody spend in a submaximal (60-80%) weight range...? So that the solid foundation is build.

cheers
b.

Sean S
06-22-2011, 06:29 AM
You won't get big and fat and unathletic because you SQ, BP, and DL. You get that way by gaining a ton of excess weight (with alot of extra fat), which is a function of diet more than anything. So yes, the powerlifts and olympic lifts do provide basic strength for athletes. The ability to translate those lifts into other skills depends on diet and practicing those other "athletic" skills.
It's hard to say exactly how long someone should train with submax weights as a beginner. That depends largely on how quickly they learn good technique for their lifts. Once someone can safely train heavy without technique breaking down substantially, it is generally fine for them to train in a "max effort" style.

BloodandThunder
06-22-2011, 08:01 AM
"functional strength" - this term irks me so much. What does it even mean? It's as if I start squatting or OH Pressing, then I'll be confined to a recliner for the other 23 hours a day. I'll take anyone that lifts heavy, diets right, and works hard at conditioning over any Crossfit person for any athletic event with the exception of max number of kipping pullups or whatever those air humps are called

The ME method, or training lifts for a certain volume above 90%, most likely til a 1RM, mainly is used to increase muscular and neurological coordination. Many new trainees can take 80% of their 1RM and do 8-10 reps, while many experienced lifters stuggle to do 5-6. This is because the experienced lifter is more efficient at heavier weights. It's also the same reason why DE work is done at a lower percentage typically the more training time you have.

bertman
06-22-2011, 11:00 AM
"functional strength" ? hehe I love that on!
Functional strength is when tomorrow the shit hits the fan and you can make use of your body in any kind of physical manner. Running away from or after something for a long duration or a short sprint.
Climbing a rope, defending your self in a fight...caring another person... swimming for a long distance or fast...
also with or without a person to carry. Being able to perfom basic Gymnastic movements & or able to free climb a big rock.
that is real funtional stremght ( "functional" incorporates for me a minimal amount of condition in it as well...)

If you are a powerlifter and can do all this! Respeckt! If you can't. Well then you are strong in "your" sport.
but not strong overall in a functional way ;)

About powerlifter and diet. That is just an excuse of laziness to not eating healthy...

bertman
06-22-2011, 12:48 PM
About powerlifter and diet. That is just an excuse of laziness to not eating healthy...
sorry that one was a bit offensive.
What I mean is that there is really no reason to be overweight.If you eat clean/healthy you can have alot of fuel in your food and will not get overweight. You could even do paleodiet... with that you can eat like a TANK. You will
never get overweight... unless you have some issues with health in advanced which support obesity.

For example at the last Olympics in Beijing. Where my faller german (Matthias Steiner) won gold. He looks freaaaking unhealthy/overweight. And his competition Evgeny Chigishev witch got silver... he looked in shape.
and I'm sure he did not lost the 1. place because he has less bodyfat, hahha.... ;)

As much as I was happy for steiner to win gold. that they cold him the strongest man in the world is just a joke...
Strongestman? Yeah in one direction in one particular technic. Of course that is his sport. But it has
nothing todo with real overall strenght.
Can you imagin Steiner climping up a rope? or runnning after a thief? Freeclimbing? hehe. this would give quit a funny picture.

About kipping pull-ups... Yeah I don't know why this was invented. I really like the Idea behind crossfit but
whenever somebody tells me they did 50 or a 100pullups... I Always ask:"a real pullup or the kindergarden kipping version"? but luckily there are more and more crossfit gyms which got rid of these crappy half-baked exercises...

bertman
06-22-2011, 12:52 PM
You won't get big and fat and unathletic because you SQ, BP, and DL. You get that way by gaining a ton of excess weight (with alot of extra fat), which is a function of diet more than anything.
of course its about diet. But my point was that most powerlifters look like they don't care about diet...(overweight)

JacobH
06-22-2011, 06:15 PM
of course its about diet. But my point was that most powerlifters look like they don't care about diet...(overweight)

Powerlifters care about diet, but they are less likely to look cut like bodybuilders because they aren't trying to look extremely muscular and lean, they are trying to lift a crapload of weight. Sometimes excess weight helps them with leverage, and I don't think your average powerlifter would risk losing strenght on a caloric defecit to cut off some fat. I'm sure your aware of this, I'm just saying you don't have to have much excess fat to be able to lift alot of weight, but It isn't as easy as you think to stay very lean while building lots of muscle.

Mark!
06-23-2011, 02:55 AM
Bertman I bet your believe in the standard "BMI" test and live by its results don't you? You strike me as someone who knows very little about a lot when it comes to gaining strength and quality overall productive mass in the sport of bodybuilding and power lifting.

Mark!
06-23-2011, 03:10 AM
"functional strength" ? hehe I love that on!
Functional strength is when tomorrow the shit hits the fan and you can make use of your body in any kind of physical manner. Running away from or after something for a long duration or a short sprint.
Climbing a rope, defending your self in a fight...caring another person... swimming for a long distance or fast...
also with or without a person to carry. Being able to perfom basic Gymnastic movements & or able to free climb a big rock.
that is real funtional stremght ( "functional" incorporates for me a minimal amount of condition in it as well...)
Functional strength is relative to your profession or hobby, not to any of the things you mentioned. According to your "shit hits the fan" scenario, a strong person could use their body, or weakling per say, could use their body in any kind of physical manner
If you are a powerlifter and can do all this! Respeckt! If you can't. Well then you are strong in "your" sport.
but not strong overall in a functional way ;)
Again, functional is relative and not set in stone towards any sort of set idea or concept.
About powerlifter and diet. That is just an excuse of laziness to not eating healthy...
Eat chicken, greens, salad, beef, steak, fish etc every day like most powerlifters do, would you be lazy? Mass is put on as quality mass, in order to GAIN solid, quality mass one has to EAT, and GAIN MASS, while also gaining size/weight. Yes, there are cheat days where I eat whatever the hell I want, but everyone has those, doesn't make us lazy, shit it makes us human.


sorry that one was a bit offensive.
What I mean is that there is really no reason to be overweight.If you eat clean/healthy you can have alot of fuel in your food and will not get overweight. You could even do paleodiet... with that you can eat like a TANK. You will
never get overweight... unless you have some issues with health in advanced which support obesity.

For example at the last Olympics in Beijing. Where my faller german (Matthias Steiner) won gold. He looks freaaaking unhealthy/overweight. And his competition Evgeny Chigishev witch got silver... he looked in shape.
and I'm sure he did not lost the 1. place because he has less bodyfat, hahha.... ;)

As much as I was happy for steiner to win gold. that they cold him the strongest man in the world is just a joke...
Strongestman? Yeah in one direction in one particular technic. Of course that is his sport. But it has
nothing todo with real overall strenght.
Can you imagin Steiner climping up a rope? or runnning after a thief? Freeclimbing? hehe. this would give quit a funny picture.

About kipping pull-ups... Yeah I don't know why this was invented. I really like the Idea behind crossfit but
whenever somebody tells me they did 50 or a 100pullups... I Always ask:"a real pullup or the kindergarden kipping version"? but luckily there are more and more crossfit gyms which got rid of these crappy half-baked exercises...
Again, functional stength=relative kid. Steiner wouldn't have to run after a thief, climb a rope, or free climb. He lifted heavy objects...your arguments don't support your theory. You're saying functional strength is all about one thing....when it's functional to what function you put it towards.


of course its about diet. But my point was that most powerlifters look like they don't care about diet...(overweight)
Regardless of the food taken in, at such an overload of CLEAN, QUALITY foods, one would gain mass EVERYWHERE, not just muscle mass/strength. You stated above that one could just eat clean and quality foods yet not get overweight...which to me implies one could eat 6000 calories of chicken, greens, whole wheats/rice, etc..."clean" foods, and not get over weight. Do your research before implying such a thing. There's a reason why you see fat people at subway...they foot long on wheat is still a foot long with a shit ton of calories.

Mark!
06-23-2011, 03:18 AM
If you want that "functional strength" find whatever function you want to incorporate, and work towards it. If you want to be able to scale walls, climb ropes, swim fast, run fast, and lift bodyweight+, you would train for those events. Find a goal, train for that goal, whatever it may be. Don't worry about getting power lifter fat or power lifter strong, just find a diet that fits your strength/energy/caloric needs and stick to it, work hard, and meet and exceed your goals.

bertman
06-23-2011, 07:31 AM
Regardless of the food taken in, at such an overload of CLEAN, QUALITY foods, one would gain mass EVERYWHERE, not just muscle mass/strength. You stated above that one could just eat clean and quality foods yet not get overweight...which to me implies one could eat 6000 calories of chicken, greens, whole wheats/rice, etc..."clean" foods, and not get over weight. Do your research before implying such a thing. There's a reason why you see fat people at subway...they foot long on wheat is still a foot long with a shit ton of calories.

jesus... of course if somebody eats more calories then he burns... he will gain weight.
But show me somebody that eats realy clean and healthy and is oveerweight as steiner. got it?
I eat for 9 month Peleodiet. And I can eat what ever I want ( in the boundarys) how much I want.
I allways bounce back to my normal optimal weight.
And I eat usually more or equal amount of Vegies than a Vegetarian or Vegan everyday. And eat more protein then a bodybuilder.

bertman
06-23-2011, 07:39 AM
Again, functional stength=relative kid. Steiner wouldn't have to run after a thief, climb a rope, or free climb. He lifted heavy objects...your arguments don't support your theory. You're saying functional strength is all about one thing....when it's functional to what function you put it towards.

Funktional equals for me to this: a body that has an overall funktional amount of strenght that can be applyed to a large variety of tasks. So I support very well my theory. Cause Steine could not climb a rope or run after somebody well... or at all. So his one diszipline made him unfuntional in others. = nonFunctional strenght...
Functional strenght is never about one thing ;)
Its about getting your abody ready for any task that could come up....

He is strong and for sure funcional: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5Yr_WwR8Y&feature=fvwrel
got it? ( its mainly upperbody but from his approach he probally wont sqauat bad eather...) ;)

bertman
06-23-2011, 08:01 AM
mhh, just had a nice thought.... I'm "not" on the super hunter and gatherer trip. Doing it just
for performance... but its a good point.

Take a hunter and gatherer. They had perfect functional.
Put Steiner in to the wild. He would be dead the next day. Regardless of how many knowledge he could
have about surviving in the wild.
So there you have the perfect test if somebody is functional or not.

ps.: on the other hand... a well balanced funktional athlete is probally much more tasty to a lion then an overweight powerlifter... So it could be counterproductiv. hhahaha :)

bertman
06-23-2011, 08:20 AM
Oh this is a realy good one! haha
Are you that strong that you can Overheadpress more then your own bodyweight? Cool! Can you do the same amount of presses in a Handstandpushup?
No? ....then your strenght is not functional...

Off Road
06-23-2011, 08:22 AM
This is getting old quickly...

chris mason
06-23-2011, 03:48 PM
It also has to do with what exercises lend themselves to 1RM training. Upper back movements will tend to lead to broken form when a 1RM is attempted.

Beyond that it has to do with the sport the training was created for. In addition, most things you might do in life involve the muscles worked by squat and pressing variations. You very rarely row things in real life and if you do, it will not be explosive effort type of stuff.