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Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 02:42 PM
I've heard some people overreach on purpose and then back off for a few days to let the "rebound" take its place.

The theory behind it is that if you train to the point of diminishing returns, you will then rest for a few days OR you resume to "normal training" and your previous performance after that period of being weakened will be higher...

So has anyone ever dared employing this concept?

JK1
08-01-2011, 05:05 PM
You work to a peak, then back off a bit for a week, (or 2 weeks depending on what you need and where your training is) then work to a point beyond that previous peak. Just as an example, for bench,h you hit a PR in your shirt full range, do something out of the shirt like floor presses the next week, deload, then hit a big PR in the met.

I've done something similar for that the last few meets I've done (obviously there are variations) I work up to something near what I'm planning to take as my second attempt at a meet 3 weeks out-this should be at last a 5-15 lb meet PR and try to keep meet conditions--ie press call, same hand off person, etc), then deload for the week before the meet, then hit sam weight to about 5 lbs more for that PR at the meet on the 2nd and work up to a big PR on my 3rd attempt. The misses I've had on 3rd with this approach have all been very close... ie I lock my left arm, but my right arm is just barely not locked for 2 reds and a white.

Like I said, there are variations with this, but that's basicallly it in a nutshell. You don't necessarily take things to the point of falling apart/diminishing returns, you take things to a never before reached peak, rest, then go to a higher peak.

Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 05:27 PM
You don't necessarily take things to the point of falling apart/diminishing returns, you take things to a never before reached peak, rest, then go to a higher peak.

Oh. lol. I kind of think that ruins the purpose.

You reaching a "peak" is merely a sign that you are currently at your best.

theBarzeen
08-01-2011, 05:58 PM
When I was getting started ( 0-7 or 8 years hard training) I could train heavy much more often..... once I started training in gear and really getting heavy I've had to back off.... not because of "overtraining" just because I started getting hurt. That's a sure-fire way for your body to tell you that maybe it's time to back it off a little. Not major injuries, just more tweaks than normal. THAT is over training, not " I feel extra tired today"

with that said, once I started putting up some bigger weights I've had to learn how to back off more to recover. I'm lucky to have some really good guys giving me advice on when to push and when to take it easy..... that's just recovering from regular training, and good programming... not so much over training.

Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 08:24 PM
When I was getting started ( 0-7 or 8 years hard training) I could train heavy much more often..... once I started training in gear and really getting heavy I've had to back off.... not because of "overtraining" just because I started getting hurt. That's a sure-fire way for your body to tell you that maybe it's time to back it off a little. Not major injuries, just more tweaks than normal. THAT is over training, not " I feel extra tired today"

with that said, once I started putting up some bigger weights I've had to learn how to back off more to recover. I'm lucky to have some really good guys giving me advice on when to push and when to take it easy..... that's just recovering from regular training, and good programming... not so much over training.

I am currently a beginner olympic-style weightlifter and the opposite in our cases (from novice to elite) is actually the truth.

The more experienced we get, the more training we can handle. I'm sure there are alot of peeps in here who have heard of things like the bulgarian-style routine...

But why is it the opposite in powerlifting?????? I mean, you and I both do heavy squats, just different form.

chris mason
08-01-2011, 08:56 PM
The Bulgarian method thing is a bit of horseshit. What I mean by that is that the Bulgarian coaches had their pick of a huge number of athletes. They burned through many, many athletes to land "model athletes" who were machines of recovery that could not only endure, but thrive on the incredible volume they practiced. 95%+ of the population would be destroyed by such training.

In addition, Olympic lifting is very different than powerlifting. The exercises themselves do not stress the involved major skeletal muscles in the same manner as the powerlifts. For instance, what most athletes can clean is significantly below their front squat potential (they may only be able to front squat a little more than they can clean, but if they worked the front squat as a powerlifter trains their back squat they would build their front squat to the point it significantly outstripped what they can clean). This is the same reason you don't see as much muscular development in O-lifters.

Mark!
08-01-2011, 09:12 PM
I personally think over training is something that's thrown around on forums such as bodybuilding.com far too often, something similar to sand in your vag. Yes, it's real and it happens, but it takes far longer to accomplish such a thing than many people give credit for. If you're not recovering properly, yes it can happen quicker, but when I see threads about guys training legs one day then upper the next day and complaining about overtraining, that's bullshit. Of course, it's different for everyone, and you just have to listen to your body. My training takes me to the point of feeling beat up and weak usually, then I deload, and go back to work the next week. I don't deload on any given week or after any given goal, it's all about how I feel.

Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 09:37 PM
The Bulgarian method thing is a bit of horseshit. What I mean by that is that the Bulgarian coaches has their pick of a huge number of athletes. They burned through many, many athletes to land "model athletes" who were machines of recovery that could not only endure, but thrive on the incredible volume they practiced. 95%+ of the population would be destroyed by such training.

In addition, Olympic lifting is very different than powerlifting. The exercises themselves do not stress the involved major skeletal muscles in the same manner as the powerlifts. For instance, what most athletes can clean is significantly below their front squat potential (they may only be able to front squat a little more than they can clean, but if they worked the front squat as a powerlifter trains their back squat they would build their front squat to the point it significantly outstripped what they can clean). This is the same reason you don't see as much muscular development in O-lifters.

Wow. I can argue so much about this.

Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 09:38 PM
I personally think over training is something that's thrown around on forums such as bodybuilding.com far too often, something similar to sand in your vag. Yes, it's real and it happens, but it takes far longer to accomplish such a thing than many people give credit for. If you're not recovering properly, yes it can happen quicker, but when I see threads about guys training legs one day then upper the next day and complaining about overtraining, that's bullshit. Of course, it's different for everyone, and you just have to listen to your body. My training takes me to the point of feeling beat up and weak usually, then I deload, and go back to work the next week. I don't deload on any given week or after any given goal, it's all about how I feel.

Overtraining is very rare, especially with people who don't really plan on competing for anything.

However, overReaching happens all the time.

Mark!
08-01-2011, 10:12 PM
Overtraining is very rare, especially with people who don't really plan on competing for anything.

However, overReaching happens all the time.

I most certainly, definitely, would not say all the time.

Bee_Brian
08-01-2011, 11:06 PM
I most certainly, definitely, would not say all the time.

Eh. I guess. lol

shocker4221
08-02-2011, 03:16 AM
Wow. I can argue so much about this.

You say that your a beginner, but you want to argue with Chris's point? Doesn't seem like a smart choice.

tcooper
08-02-2011, 03:52 AM
You say that your a beginner, but you want to argue with Chris's point? Doesn't seem like a smart choice.

i agree with shocker..

how can you argue that point when you can probly barely squat 150lbs? no hate towards you but if youre new to lifting why not just get under the bar and do work instead of trying to prove a veteran wrong when you have no experience?

Mark!
08-02-2011, 04:23 AM
i agree with shocker..

how can you argue that point when you can probly barely squat 150lbs? no hate towards you but if youre new to lifting why not just get under the bar and do work instead of trying to prove a veteran wrong when you have no experience?

Because he's new breed. They come in, post thinking they know shit not knowing we have WORLD CLASS powerlifters here. He'll argue his point, get bashed a few times, then fade away like most do instead of shutting up, posting half as much and reading twice as much. God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth, figure it out.

joey54
08-02-2011, 04:51 AM
This is that Viktorious guy from BB.Com. Guys, don't even waste your time.

NickAus
08-02-2011, 05:29 AM
When I was getting started ( 0-7 or 8 years hard training) I could train heavy much more often..... once I started training in gear and really getting heavy I've had to back off.... not because of "overtraining" just because I started getting hurt. That's a sure-fire way for your body to tell you that maybe it's time to back it off a little. Not major injuries, just more tweaks than normal. THAT is over training, not " I feel extra tired today"

with that said, once I started putting up some bigger weights I've had to learn how to back off more to recover. I'm lucky to have some really good guys giving me advice on when to push and when to take it easy..... that's just recovering from regular training, and good programming... not so much over training.

Solid advice!!

NickAus
08-02-2011, 05:31 AM
The Bulgarian method thing is a bit of horseshit. What I mean by that is that the Bulgarian coaches has their pick of a huge number of athletes. They burned through many, many athletes to land "model athletes" who were machines of recovery that could not only endure, but thrive on the incredible volume they practiced. 95%+ of the population would be destroyed by such training.

In addition, Olympic lifting is very different than powerlifting. The exercises themselves do not stress the involved major skeletal muscles in the same manner as the powerlifts. For instance, what most athletes can clean is significantly below their front squat potential (they may only be able to front squat a little more than they can clean, but if they worked the front squat as a powerlifter trains their back squat they would build their front squat to the point it significantly outstripped what they can clean). This is the same reason you don't see as much muscular development in O-lifters.

Agree 100%

drew
08-02-2011, 05:33 AM
This is that Viktorious guy from BB.Com. Guys, don't even waste your time.

This.

Not worth the effort.

Mark!
08-02-2011, 01:26 PM
I knew this felt bb.com-ish.

Alex.V
08-02-2011, 02:06 PM
Wow. I can argue so much about this.

Then do it. If you've got solid arguments or counterpoints, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them. (Absolutely zero sarcasm here, I'm being very honest).

Just be prepared to back them up.

joey54
08-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Then do it. If you've got solid arguments or counterpoints, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them. (Absolutely zero sarcasm here, I'm being very honest).

Just be prepared to back them up.

If you want to see his arguments, I can link you to several threads over at bb.com. As for here, I am giving no more time to this douche.

chris mason
08-02-2011, 06:34 PM
Wow. I can argue so much about this.

You can argue, but you will be wrong.

joey54
08-02-2011, 07:15 PM
I closed the thread, but if you guys want to have fun with this, have at it.

Bee_Brian
08-02-2011, 09:55 PM
You can argue, but you will be wrong.

Okay... Here is my opinion about it.

Ivan Abadjhiev (originator of the Bulgarian method) is not just some crazy coach who sends his athletes in some kind of "grinder" program and let the weak ones get injured and let the strong ones progress. He is responsible for 12 Olympic champions, 57 World champions, and 64 European champions throughout his career.

Plus, just because Ivan is the originator of the squat-heavy-everyday method doesn't mean he is the only one who has implemented (and MODIFIED) the system. Steve Gough does the same thing with his athletes with great success.

Heck... I'm a newbie and yet I'm still alive after being on "stage 4" of Plamen Asparukhov's (the newer coach in Bulgaria) training program...

And I'm sure there have been alot of guys in here who have heard about Pat Mendes, Max Aita, and Rob Adell. Pat and Rob were trained by John Broz, who was trained by Antonio Krastev, WHO WAS COACHED BY IVAN ABADJHIEV. Pat squatted 700 pounds raw, ATG, when he was 19 years old and Rob Adell cleaned 400 pounds when he was 18 years old. Max Aita had a 650-pound back squat raw, ATG, and was trained by both Steve Gough (who is an american weightlifting coach who follows the same type of program that Bulgarian lifters do) and IVAN ABADJHIEV himself.

Just my two cents... And I know I am not entitled for an opinion but... Chris gave me permission! :clown:

Alex.V
08-03-2011, 06:44 AM
So your points are, essentially:

1) One of the guys you mention isn't cherry-picking his athletes, because a) you say so, and b) he has a bunch of accomplished athletes.

2) There are a few other guys who espouse these sorts of routines and do well.

3) A newbie with unremarkable strength can do high volume routines like this and not overtrain.

4) Look, there are a bunch of strong guys (who are clearly exceptional talents) who've done the same thing.


You're entitled to an opinion, certainly.... and I hope that's all this is. Because that was a bit of a throwaway post, with zero actual proof for a single thing you've stated.

BloodandThunder
08-03-2011, 08:19 AM
Ah yes yet another beginner lifter who drinks the Broz koolaid. Don't get me wrong, I like his attitude about doing whatever it takes to put Americans on the podium and some of his athletes are doing some great lifting, but where are the results on the platform (I'm sorry but this is where it counts, not in the gym). Guys like Pendlay and him can hopefully start producing some top 5 lifters through the support system they've setup.

But PLing and OLing are two completely different sports and feature two very different skill sets. You're talking about supercompensation in the OP with regards to PLing. In fact, the Soviet Union implemented shock cycles and became very dominant with them back in the day in OLing. Recovery for a PLer is completely different than that of an OLer who spends a far greater time with high bar squats and non-eccentric lifting.

Not everyone espouses the use of the Bulgarian method. Even the Chinese do a great amount of hypertrophy work and other non-competition lifts and variants in their training and they are spitting out medals left and right. So think and analyze before you spit the opinions of other people.

drew
08-03-2011, 09:02 AM
So your points are, essentially:

1) One of the guys you mention isn't cherry-picking his athletes, because a) you say so, and b) he has a bunch of accomplished athletes.

2) There are a few other guys who espouse these sorts of routines and do well.

3) A newbie with unremarkable strength can do high volume routines like this and not overtrain.

4) Look, there are a bunch of strong guys (who are clearly exceptional talents) who've done the same thing.


You're entitled to an opinion, certainly.... and I hope that's all this is. Because that was a bit of a throwaway post, with zero actual proof for a single thing you've stated.

If we're going to keep the door open for this guy to post, expect many more throw away posts with no proof of anything.

J.C.
08-03-2011, 09:45 AM
1) Am I right in thinking the mechanism of super-compensation following over-reaching is hormonal? So a month of exceptionally heavy training leads to a slight regression, then the endocrine system has a chance to rebound and you come back slightly stronger? This isn't a question to the OP - who I don't expect to answer - but just a general question to someone who can explain the science behind it. I saw Chris mention it in the DT article. You see these terms thrown around occasionally and I'm still curious how it actually works.

2) There was a good thread a couple of years back which had people like Travis, Sensei and Fuzzy debating high-frequency Oly training vs. Powerlifting training. It was a good, fairly informative read. Anyone care to find and link it?

Sean S
08-03-2011, 11:45 AM
I don't think anyone can say for sure what the mechanism is behind the supercompensation. There is some evidence that the testosterone/cortisol ratio decreases with overreaching and rebounds after rest. The problem is that we don't know if those hormone fluctuations are actually causing the supercompensation or if they are simply rebounding along side the other physiologic variables.

StormTheBeach
08-03-2011, 11:49 AM
1) Am I right in thinking the mechanism of super-compensation following over-reaching is hormonal? So a month of exceptionally heavy training leads to a slight regression, then the endocrine system has a chance to rebound and you come back slightly stronger? This isn't a question to the OP - who I don't expect to answer - but just a general question to someone who can explain the science behind it. I saw Chris mention it in the DT article. You see these terms thrown around occasionally and I'm still curious how it actually works.

2) There was a good thread a couple of years back which had people like Travis, Sensei and Fuzzy debating high-frequency Oly training vs. Powerlifting training. It was a good, fairly informative read. Anyone care to find and link it?


1) There are a couple theories about super compensation/delayed transformation. I tend to believe the hormonal rebound has a lot to do with it. There is a theory that it has to do with exterme substrate depletion that then rebounds after a lay-off. If you are progrssing correctly, there has to be some fiber typing/nervous adaptations that take place as well. I think it is a combination of a lot of factors. I know Bompa suggests 2-5weeks of deloading after highly concentrated loading to get the most out of the super compensation effect.

Oh yea, and just to add my 2 cents to the thread, overtraining is stupid and doesn't exist. Neither does overreaching. There is good programing and shitty programming. Good programming gets you strong based off of your current trainability. Shitty programming causes you to do too much because you are too UNDERtrained to handle it.

Alex.V
08-03-2011, 12:33 PM
1)

Oh yea, and just to add my 2 cents to the thread, overtraining is stupid and doesn't exist. Neither does overreaching. There is good programing and shitty programming. Good programming gets you strong based off of your current trainability. Shitty programming causes you to do too much because you are too UNDERtrained to handle it.

So you don't believe it's possible to tax a system beyond its natural recuperative capabilities, to the point where performance is impaired and damage outweighs growth?

StormTheBeach
08-03-2011, 01:51 PM
So you don't believe it's possible to tax a system beyond its natural recuperative capabilities, to the point where performance is impaired and damage outweighs growth?


I definitely believe that. I believe that is the case with shitty programming. I also believe you just described Rhabdomyolysis.

Alex.V
08-03-2011, 05:29 PM
I definitely believe that. I believe that is the case with shitty programming. I also believe you just described Rhabdomyolysis.

No, not really.

Rhabdomyolysis is a very specific clinical condition with multiple possible causes , from trauma to, yes, acute overtraining/overstimulation. The clinical presentation is very specific, and while the set of conditions I described can POTENTIALLY cause rhabdomyolysis, it is neither remotely sufficient nor required for said diagnosis.

Please, no more throwaway comments.

StormTheBeach
08-03-2011, 06:24 PM
No, not really.

Rhabdomyolysis is a very specific clinical condition with multiple possible causes , from trauma to, yes, acute overtraining/overstimulation. The clinical presentation is very specific, and while the set of conditions I described can POTENTIALLY cause rhabdomyolysis, it is neither remotely sufficient nor required for said diagnosis.

Please, no more throwaway comments.


You forgot to mention how bad it makes your piss taste... and there is still no such thing as overtraining.

4g64fiero
08-03-2011, 06:43 PM
Thats why I love this website. Members with great critical thinking skills and experience to add to it. You cant survive as a fanboy here. Speaking in absolutes based of limited anecdotes will only back you into a corner when you have no proof or examples on hand.

That being said, discussing overtraining when noone can actually agree on what it means is futile. People who actually lift consitantly dont need to discuss it. They see effects and adjust accordingly. They dont come on websites and argue with people with over 2klb totals.

Alex.V
08-03-2011, 07:24 PM
You forgot to mention how bad it makes your piss taste... and there is still no such thing as overtraining.

...aaaaaand, we're done here.

Mark!
08-03-2011, 08:12 PM
...aaaaaand, we're done here.

I think we were quite honestly done a long, long time ago.

Bee_Brian
08-03-2011, 09:05 PM
You're entitled to an opinion, certainly.... and I hope that's all this is. Because that was a bit of a throwaway post, with zero actual proof for a single thing you've stated.

That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.

Mark!
08-03-2011, 11:49 PM
That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.

Nothing you said has been proven...it's all been an opinion.

StormTheBeach
08-04-2011, 05:32 AM
I think we were quite honestly done a long, long time ago.

Agreed.

Alex.V
08-04-2011, 06:36 AM
That felt harsh, especially since I put a bit of effort in proving a point.

I would consider re-evaluating your effort, then. Or perhaps re-evaluating your point, if that is the sort of backing you have for it.

StormTheBeach
08-04-2011, 07:00 AM
I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted. I feel that would be more constructive than 99% of the conversation that has actually taken place.

4g64fiero
08-04-2011, 09:23 AM
I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted.

Sig'd.

Alex.V
08-04-2011, 11:09 AM
I think I am just going to start posting dick pictures on here until this thread gets deleted. I feel that would be more constructive than 99% of the conversation that has actually taken place.

Weren't you the guy who made a good point, but then missed out on a chance to deepen the discussion a bit?

StormTheBeach
08-04-2011, 01:42 PM
Weren't you the guy who made a good point, but then missed out on a chance to deepen the discussion a bit?


Dick pictures are a good point. Wouldn't deepening the discussion entail actually posting said dick pictures?

And who said I was a guy?

Alex.V
08-04-2011, 02:25 PM
You assume I care.

chris mason
08-04-2011, 09:20 PM
Here is my thought for the no overtraining camp. They had better be the biggest, strongest motherfuckers on the planet... If there is no such thing as overtraining then progress should be continuous thus all of those believers had better be mutants.

Oh, and I personally know the strongest people on the planet (some, not all of them :)) and they all know that overtraining exists.

Bee_Brian
08-04-2011, 10:46 PM
Here is my thought for the no overtraining camp. They had better be the biggest, strongest motherfuckers on the planet... If there is no such thing as overtraining then progress should be continuous thus all of those believers had better be mutants.

Oh, and I personally know the strongest people on the planet (some, not all of them :)) and they all know that overtraining exists.

It does exist.. It's just not as common as most people think.

I'd say about 5% of pro powerlifters and olympic lifters experience it...

chris mason
08-04-2011, 10:48 PM
It does exist.. It's just not as common as people think.

I'd say about 5% of pro powerlifters and olympic lifters experience it...

Lol, right, based upon your endless experience with what? Is that you in your avatar? You look about 12 and don't even look like you train. I think you need to spend more time training and learning and less time expressing you baseless opinions.

Bee_Brian
08-04-2011, 10:53 PM
Lol, right, based upon your endless experience with what? Is that you in your avatar? You look about 12 and don't even look like you train. I think you need to spend more time training and learning and less time expressing you baseless opinions.

It's not that I'm wrong or anything. It's just that people have different definitions of "overtraining." Overtraining is a SEVERE MEDICAL CONDITION caused by chronic overreaching. The kind where your performance keeps going down while you still push yourself to the max.

Until you actually reach that stage (which is rare because most people would deload before it even happens), you are not really "overtrained."

Off Road
08-04-2011, 11:16 PM
Joey warned us :)

chris mason
08-04-2011, 11:34 PM
It's not that I'm wrong or anything. It's just that people have different definitions of "overtraining." Overtraining is a SEVERE MEDICAL CONDITION caused by chronic overreaching. The kind where your performance keeps going down while you still push yourself to the max.

Until you actually reach that stage (which is rare because most people would deload before it even happens), you are not really "overtrained."


Your definition is not the norm. When speaking with a group of people it is best to use a normally accepted definition. Most people consider overtraniing to be a state where progress is halted or even regression occurs due to the body being incapable of keeping up with the demands of their training regimen - i.e. the inability to recover and or supercompensate from training.

StormTheBeach
08-05-2011, 05:27 AM
Your definition is not the norm. When speaking with a group of people it is best to use a normally accepted definition. Most people consider overtraniing to be a state where progress is halted or even regression occurs due to the body being incapable of keeping up with the demands of their training regimen - i.e. the inability to recover and or supercompensate from training.


Ok, I will stop the dick comments for a little while and actually contribute to the discussion again.

What would a norm definition for overtraining be? A state where progress is halted or even regressed could be a day to day occurance. So, would one bad workout be considered overtrained? For that day?

I would love to find out what is actually going on that makes overtraining a "severe medical condition."

There are just way too many factors that go into the way you feel and the progress you make to throw a one word term at it everytime you feel like shit. I am definitely not trying to start an arguement or anything but, it has pretty much always been my opinion that you can constantly be in an undertrained state. Increasing the training stimulus in this state overloads the working mechanisms involved with adaptation. Everything from substrate depeletion, especailly if you are undertrained and your diet sucks, to the "hormonal rebound" we talked about erlier, to the disposition switch of certain fiber types, to whatever the hell adaptations your central nervous system goes through from efficient training can all be mal-adapted from a shitty program being untilized by someone that is undertrained.

I completely agree that progress will never be constant and gains will definitely be hard to come by for the more advanced/elite level lifters but regression of lifts should never be a BIG problem. Unless some kind of significant injury (which I am dealing with now and it f-ing sucks) or illness or stupid real life gets in the way.

Again, not trying to piss anyone off, I just have a hard time believing that it can be as cut and dry as overtrianed or not. Lack of progress and regression due to an undertrained individual doing more work than they are capable of makes a whole lot more sense to me.

Alex.V
08-05-2011, 06:12 AM
I think there's a grey area here in between the "overtraining is a severe medical condition" camp and the "overtraining is my excuse for having two bad workouts in a row" camp.

The definition, both medically and informally, is simply when you reach a state where exercise load exceeds recovery and performance is compromised as a result. Note there are two parts to the definition: 1) Recovery not keeping up with stimulus, and 2) reduced performance AS A RESULT. One or the other alone isn't enough to "diagnose" it.

I'd agree it is thrown around entirely too often.. a bit like migraines. There are a number of folks who'll gladly say "I have a migraine" to describe their bad headache, but they'd become very quiet if they knew what a real migraine actually felt like.

I would agree with brian that few professional strength athletes experience this. I would also argue that's often because their routines and day to day lifestyle is all based on experience- these are not weekend warriors who adopt an ultra-high volume routine while working 12 hours a day and getting 5 hours of sleep a night on a lousy diet- these are folks who know their bodies, know what effective routines are like, and understand how to maintain peak performance when needed.

I, for one, have certainly experienced it... as recently as a few weeks back, where the sudden increase in endurance work had my entire body constantly sore and fatigued, overall energy levels were low, resting heart rate was over 75-80 (normal for me is 48-50), times were getting slower, lifts were stagnating or dropping, I was moody and irritable (which, if you ask my girlfriend, is nothing out of the ordinary). No increase in calories or sleep could compensate for this- I was simply overtaxing my system, pushing it beyond what it was capable of at the time. Simply backing off the volume a bit was all it took to reverse the worst of the changes, and issues are improving.

Stating "overtraining does not exist" is easily proven false- It is a specific syndrome that has a very obvious mechanism and easily measurable results. However, if you'd just said "Overtraining is overused as a reason for stagnant progress", I would definitely agree.

StormTheBeach
08-05-2011, 11:42 AM
See, even with that definition, you have to consider how the person got into the situation in the first place. Recovery not keeping up with the stimulus. The stimulus did not match the work capacity the individual was capable of. Maladaptation occured. This does not sound like the individual is overtrained, it sounds like they were undertrained when the stimulus was initally introduced. Also, with this definition, it leaves it open to assume that "overtraining" can be an acute training effect. For example, if someone pushes a heavy prowler for 30mins then goes to max out on squats and does 100lbs lower than their previous max, that could be considered "overtraining" based on that definition.

You even said yourself, you would agree that few higher level strength athletes experience "overtraining." Maybe this is because they understand where their own level of trainability is enough to not put themselves on a shitty program (i.e. one that would not be optimal for them).

Everyone can have their own opinion on this. Me personally, I still don't believe OVERtraining exists. I would love to see some chemical markers and some muscle byopsy studies done on strength athletes and overtraining. All of the research I have ever seen has been on long distance runners and other various endurance based sports.

Alex.V
08-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Everyone can have their own opinion on this. Me personally, I still don't believe OVERtraining exists. I would love to see some chemical markers and some muscle byopsy studies done on strength athletes and overtraining. All of the research I have ever seen has been on long distance runners and other various endurance based sports.

Asking for biopsies would be misunderstanding the nature of the syndrome. There ARE chemical markers- plenty of them. A simple blood panel will show elevated cortisol, suppressed testosterone, lymphopenia, etc.

For the first part of what you're saying, that's sort of splitting hairs. It's like saying "There's no such thing as a weight too heavy to lift, just people too weak to lift it". (Which is actually a damn good slogan... I need that on a tshirt)

Yes, what is an acceptable level of training for one athlete may result in overtraining in another. (Not maladaptation, which would mean the body is responding to a stimulus by developing certain traits that would be a detriment to the system.. short term chemical and physical imbalances aren't true adaptations) If you're undertrained when a stimulus is introduced, and therefore the stimulus exceeds the body's recovery capacity, then the stimulus will result in overtraining.

But overtraining is a syndrome with very clear symptoms- what you've described from the prowler workout followed by squats is short term fatigue leading to diminished performance- again, that'd be a case where "overtraining" was used as an incorrect reason to justify short term decreased performance- no systemic recovery would be expected in a short period of time, so the decrease in performance is not unexpected. Good point, though, there should be the caveat to the definition in terms of timeframe.

You made a really solid point- most of the studies are in endurance athletes... I'd argue that's precisely because true overtraining is much rarer in strength athletes than in the endurance set- it's easier to recover from a brutal squat workout than it is to recover from a 25 mile run- and most weight lifters wouldn't squat the next day, whereas many runners might hit the trail again.

Based on what we understand regarding the body's recuperative capabilities, how it responds to exercise, etc., our model will lead to situations where workload exceeds recovery, which will diminish performance. We have empirical evidence this occurs, and lab tests showing biomarkers that can back this up. What would you call this situation? And what would differentiate your description from the clinically accepted "overtraining" syndrome?

Sensei
08-05-2011, 03:37 PM
I'd try to respond to some of the more ridiculous posts, but I don't know where to begin.

It's amazing how long the "there's no overtraining, only undereating/underrecovery" nonsense has been around despite all the literature to the contrary.

chris mason
08-05-2011, 07:17 PM
See, even with that definition, you have to consider how the person got into the situation in the first place. Recovery not keeping up with the stimulus. The stimulus did not match the work capacity the individual was capable of. Maladaptation occured. This does not sound like the individual is overtrained, it sounds like they were undertrained when the stimulus was initally introduced. Also, with this definition, it leaves it open to assume that "overtraining" can be an acute training effect. For example, if someone pushes a heavy prowler for 30mins then goes to max out on squats and does 100lbs lower than their previous max, that could be considered "overtraining" based on that definition.

You even said yourself, you would agree that few higher level strength athletes experience "overtraining." Maybe this is because they understand where their own level of trainability is enough to not put themselves on a shitty program (i.e. one that would not be optimal for them).

Everyone can have their own opinion on this. Me personally, I still don't believe OVERtraining exists. I would love to see some chemical markers and some muscle byopsy studies done on strength athletes and overtraining. All of the research I have ever seen has been on long distance runners and other various endurance based sports.

Overtraining, in my opinion, is much more of a nervous system thing than a muscular thing hence the physical markers which are attributed to it which Belial noted a few of.

Overtraining is a term used to describe the body's inability to BENEFIT from a specific training regimen. That is the point. If I tried to do 5 sets of bench press 3 times a week at 90% or better of my 1RM I would quickly be making no progress and if I persisted would likely become injured. I would be overtrained.

The concept of overreaching is simply a structured form of short term overtraining. You exceed the body's ability to positively adapt and then allow it a period to do so with overcompensation being the normal return (if done properly).

Bee_Brian
08-05-2011, 09:30 PM
I'd try to respond to some of the more ridiculous posts, but I don't know where to begin.

It's amazing how long the "there's no overtraining, only undereating/underrecovery" nonsense has been around despite all the literature to the contrary.

I get enough bashing from people in here. Please don't add to it.

NickAus
08-06-2011, 04:52 AM
I'd try to respond to some of the more ridiculous posts, but I don't know where to begin.

It's amazing how long the "there's no overtraining, only undereating/underrecovery" nonsense has been around despite all the literature to the contrary.

Agree.

joey54
08-06-2011, 05:36 AM
I get enough bashing from people in here. Please don't add to it.

You have yet to experience bashing. You just brought a butter knife to a potato gun battle. You could always put your tail between your legs and go home.

chris mason
08-06-2011, 10:29 PM
And he's gone...

BoAnderson71
08-07-2011, 03:38 PM
I like threads like these from time to time, brings entertainment on a lazy sunday afternoon.

Mark!
08-07-2011, 05:07 PM
And he's gone...

Fun sucker.

JSully
08-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Hmm.. I've been training for about 10 years now so I've paid my dues with shitty programming and I still overreach/overtrain quite frequently despite my solid programming. It's because of my experience that I know to back off and give myself time to recover. A benefit n00bs haven't experienced or learned.

IMO (that's worth about $0.02).. At least twice a month I overreach and dance that line of being overtrained. I take a day or two off, bump the calories super high and have a light recovery type workout and I'm solid again. It is about a 2-4 days after that minor deload that I have best throws before I start approaching the line once again. As athletes, isn't it who we are to push ourself to the very edge in order to increase our performance? I don't expect your typical gym rat to know this feeling. I only train with weights twice a week and I throw 4 times per week. I don't lift heavy anymore because I simply couldn't recover without it affecting my throws, yet, I still feel overreached every so often. In a sport like mine, even overreaching can be detrimental. I rely so much on technique that being too tight, too sore, too depleted or too tired can affect even the smallest aspects like how fast my hips come through to counter blalance my hammer or getting my knee to push in on the weights. The more closer to overtraining I am, form breaks down because I'm too cloudy upstairs and as a result my throws take a shit.

Shitty program yields no results. Great programming keeps you pushing hard which leads to overreaching which leads to deloading which leads to overcompensation which leads to PRs, regardless of your sport.

again, just my opinion.

And that would make an awesome shirt.

JSully
08-10-2011, 01:39 PM
sorry to dig up a seemingly dead thread

Tom Mutaffis
08-10-2011, 02:07 PM
sorry to dig up a seemingly dead thread

Good to see that you are back on the board.