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RFabsik
09-14-2011, 01:53 PM
I've been reading this board for a while and came here via the land of CrossFit. I've been training more and more Westside over the past yearish, still doing some CF metcons.

www.powerwod.com posted a CF vid where Louie talks about the dynamic day percentages. I've always understood it as around 50-60% plus/minus accomodating resistance. But in the vid, he said for raw lifters it should be around 70-80%?

What has your guys experience been? I know speed is king, and when I get above 65% I feel life slowing down. Knowing this, should I work to make 70%plus fast or just keep working in the 50-60% range being a raw lifter--home gym poser.

kingns
09-14-2011, 02:20 PM
Dont worry about being at 70% vs 50%. On speed days if the weight is moving fast and feels crisp is what I look for. If its slow take weight off. I usually use less than the recommended weight and get good bar velocity. But if your doing 8-10 sets dont be afraid to add a lil weight on the last set or two and learn to strain while fatigued

MarcusWild
09-14-2011, 02:51 PM
I agree the bar speed is more important than the percent. Some people can only go fast with 40%. Other people can go fast with 70%. Other people just aren't fast period. Go with a weight you can move fast enough to be speed work. If in doubt, then video yourself lifting and watch it.

Travis Bell
09-14-2011, 07:19 PM
In that video he's talking about the squat

RPE=10
09-14-2011, 08:17 PM
In that video he's talking about the squat

Can you elaborate a bit Travis? So for squat you would recommend a higher percentage such as 70-80% for a raw lifter and bench lower with maybe 60-70% (or even lower)? I really struggle with the right percentages. I see above where lifters recommend just using bar speed, but I like to have a frame of reference. I know AJ Roberts mentioned using higher percents, but he didn't elaborate on them.

kingns
09-14-2011, 09:42 PM
I forgot to mention for a raw lifter I'd spend more time doing rep work in place of DE work anyways. As for AJ or wendler metioning higher percents thats sorta out of context. Its not like they did a heavy single on ME day then did speed work with 70-80% on speed day. For the most part I think when they mention training like that they are realy only squatting once a week and deadlifting on ME day.

RFabsik
09-14-2011, 11:28 PM
Why more rep work for the raw lifter vs. the geared lifter?

What would be starting guidelines for the raw lifter for dynamic day for each lift?

Guestimating:
raw bench--55-65%
geared bench--45-60%
raw squat--70-80%
geared squat--50-60%
raw deadlift--70-80%
geared deadlift--65-80%

Also, when using squat and bench variants on speed days, do you still start trying with the lower percentages? Meaning if you ME a safety squat bar box squat and later do a DE cycle with the safety squat bar box--do you stick with the geared ranges even though they typcially aren't geared lifts?

Overall, I know speed is king, just trying to get a good sense of the starting points.

Travis Bell
09-15-2011, 03:15 AM
Can you elaborate a bit Travis? So for squat you would recommend a higher percentage such as 70-80% for a raw lifter and bench lower with maybe 60-70% (or even lower)? I really struggle with the right percentages. I see above where lifters recommend just using bar speed, but I like to have a frame of reference. I know AJ Roberts mentioned using higher percents, but he didn't elaborate on them.

Because when the full power lifters at the gym calculate the weight they are using for DE squat they are taking a percentage of their equipped squat.

For you I'd start with 60-70% for your squat just to get started.

For bench 45-55% of your 1rm is used regardless. We don't use our equipped bench as the baseline for DE work.

vdizenzo
09-15-2011, 05:28 AM
Because when the full power lifters at the gym calculate the weight they are using for DE squat they are taking a percentage of their equipped squat.

For you I'd start with 60-70% for your squat just to get started.

For bench 45-55% of your 1rm is used regardless. We don't use our equipped bench as the baseline for DE work.

Thank God you said this Trav. I have had so many arguments with people about DE %. I knew WS uses a raw max, but there are many who think it's based off of equipped.

SEOINAGE
09-15-2011, 06:47 AM
Personally I have had good results with dynamic squats, but bench I am either doing it wrong or it isn't benefiting me at all at this stage in my training, so I gave that one up.

theBarzeen
09-15-2011, 03:56 PM
I have to agree with kingns on this....

I look at bar speed more than %.... I have no doubt that Louis can look at a lifter and figure out a 5 to have him or her work speed with, but you can't just assign everyone the same 5 and assume that it'll work great. Everyone is different and every lift is different.

I am a ~500+ raw bencher and 700+ in a shirt. Speed work for me raw is around 250+/- bands/chains ( 45-50%), but is around 600 +/- in the shirt.... same % for squat. Deadlift is lighter still.
That's just what my team figured out works for me. Much heavier and everything slows down making it just a light day, not really a speed day.

The % are great starting points but aren't finite. Watch the bar and quit doing so much math.

JSully
09-15-2011, 04:01 PM
I have a Power Factor unit, a very barbaric version of the Tendo. I just go as heavy as I can while maintaining 1m/s. Through my training block I focus on getting the weight as high as possible while still hitting the correct speed.

RFabsik
09-22-2011, 10:19 PM
Thanks for all the responses. Clear that speed is king.

Fortunately, Louie's article this month on his website is about percentages for dynamic training.

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/wave-periodization/

It reinforces what you've all been saying and brought some clarity. My understanding of the article is 50-60% straight weight plus about 25% weight in some form of accomdating resistance putting you usually around 75-85% when the bar is at the top of the movement. If you don't use accomodating resistance, then the bar weight should be near that 75%. This seems to match my experience, I can bench/squat 50-60% straight weight plus band or chains fairly explosively, but when I've tried 70% plus straight weight plus band or chain, it seems slow. Thinking about it, I can probably hit 70% of straight weight somewhat explosively.

ScottYard
09-23-2011, 07:45 AM
I like to keep my percents low. When I benched 505 raw in a meet my base weight was 185 with minis for 5 sets of 3 then a few sets with 205 and 225. Focus on speed and technique. When I benched 490 in the usapl I only used 185 with minis as the rules are different. Some people focus on pushing the rep as hard as possible but there technique goes to shit and with heavy weights that technique wont work. Do the reps exactly as you would with 95-100% of your max.

Travis Bell
09-23-2011, 10:28 AM
A lot of people think they are explosive until they compare themselves to the top squatters in the country

BloodandThunder
09-23-2011, 11:05 AM
Scott said it best. Alot of lifters just get better at moving 60% than they do circa-max. Treat DE Day with just as much respect as you would a ME Day. DE method is a tool to use so make sure any weight selection and any wave selection will elicit a proper training response. A.S. Prilepin was really onto something :)

One thing I always noticed is that when my DE weights were chosen well and bar speed was good, my 80-90% weights on ME Days in whatever exercise I was doing would be moving faster through my weak points. And that led to PRs. So if you fail mid-range in the bench, your bar speed is going to start suffering before that. IF your DE training is going well, you should see noticably faster bar speed through that point with heavier weights.

DE Day is nothing more than enforcing good technique with correlation to your bar speed. Many times you're not actually pressing faster, you're just exhibiting better motor patterns and technique in the area of the lift you suck at. That is why accommodating resistance is definitely important for geared lifters and why rep work can be a good substitute for lower % DE work.

JSully
09-23-2011, 01:16 PM
I like to keep my percents low. When I benched 505 raw in a meet my base weight was 185 with minis for 5 sets of 3 then a few sets with 205 and 225. Focus on speed and technique. When I benched 490 in the usapl I only used 185 with minis as the rules are different. Some people focus on pushing the rep as hard as possible but there technique goes to shit and with heavy weights that technique wont work. Do the reps exactly as you would with 95-100% of your max.

this is perfect.

I'm a 405lb raw bencher and when I did my speed work last night I used 135 and still was topping out at 3.21ft/sec (just under 1m/sec).. If you compare what you think is fast to what really is fast, you realize how slow you really are.

At the same time, I'm a 650lb deadlifter and I only went to 275 to maintain sufficient speed. Obvously, form is your first priority, but speed will make a huge difference in blowing through sticking points.

RPE=10
09-24-2011, 05:13 PM
This has been a great thread, very helpful. I compete raw and only use bands on DE day once every 6-8 weeks. Looking at that article from Louie, he says the percents are 75-85% of your box squat record. Off a 12" box (what I use for DE work), that comes to 70-80% of my best raw squat. Seems to be in line with some of the old percents and with what Lou was talking about on the squat.

headache
09-25-2011, 05:16 PM
I hate to mooch off of the advice but im also curious, when you mean speed work on the bench are you talk 45-55% for low but fast reps? or many reps and fast? And is this the same basis for deads and squats?

RFabsik
09-25-2011, 06:42 PM
Dynamic day in regards to the Westside training system.
For bench this means 8-12 sets of triples of somewhere between 50-60% bar weight plus some accomodating restistance--bands or chains.

Squat is 8-12 sets of doubles.

Then once in a while do speed deadlifts 6-10 sets of singles.

Percentages are roughly in the same zone, but as all above have said--focus on speed on dynamic day.

chris mason
09-25-2011, 11:48 PM
Robert, no it's more like 40-50% now plus minis or monster minis for 8 sets of 3. That's the general guideline.

RFabsik
09-26-2011, 06:58 AM
Thanks for the correction. Not to beat a dead horse but are you referring to a raw bench or shirted bench?

Travis Bell
09-26-2011, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the correction. Not to beat a dead horse but are you referring to a raw bench or shirted bench?

Louie has us use a raw bench as the calculation for DE bench weights.