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View Full Version : 10 year old Naomi Kutin squatting 205 for 2. Training for Raw Unity Meet in January



powerlifter62
12-28-2011, 07:10 PM
She is hoping to regain the all-time world record squat in the 97lb class, currently at 209. She is really determined!

http://youtu.be/HbQtIbw07BI

Murderous
12-28-2011, 08:22 PM
This is not healthy for your child, especially the way her back falls forward which could cause her to bust a disc in her lower back. She is strong though.

powerlifter62
12-28-2011, 08:38 PM
Leaning forward while doing a power squat can cause you to bust a disc? You have even one example of this? Because I have been lifting for 30 years, have seen a variety of styles, including leaning pretty far forward, and have never heard of someone busting a disc.

chris mason
12-28-2011, 09:01 PM
Is that your daughter?

He is correct, that technique can harm the lower back. Get one of Dr. Stuart McGill's books for illustrations as to why (Amazon.com).

If that is your daughter you are doing her a disservice by allowing her to squat with poor form. The forward lean and the knees buckling in are going to lead to injury sooner or later.

She is very strong. She can still set records if you teach her to do it properly.

SELK
12-28-2011, 09:04 PM
she is very strong and I admire her effort, but if you are going to lift weights at that age you need to be worried about form and not numbers. Her knees are caving in and it looks like her back is rounding. Back it off about 100lbs and learn how to squat the correct way. Id be worried about a 200lbs man getting injured squatting 200lbs like that.

edit - I guess Chris beat me to what i was trying to say.

powerlifter62
12-28-2011, 09:12 PM
I think we've been through this before when she last set some marks.

SELK
12-28-2011, 09:22 PM
Id tell you the exact same thing if she was squatting 30lbs or 500lbs.

powerlifter62
12-28-2011, 09:34 PM
Impressive total. Raw or equipped?

theBarzeen
12-28-2011, 10:15 PM
Really impressed with this kid..... I've said it before and I'll say it again, especially coming from the standpoint of an educator for kids this age, it's awesome that she is involved in this and obviously has something to keep her self esteem high through her teenage years....

Is her form great, no. But that is for her coach and parents to worry about, she's not on here looking for advise, neither are her folks. If I were coaching I would 100% work more form because she is obviously very strong, it would be a shame to have her get hurt or even just not achieve her potential because of this...... but I'm not her coach or parent.

So, good for her for being so strong, and good for her family for giving her something to be successful at...... awesome to see it.

headache
12-29-2011, 12:16 AM
Not going to shun her efforts because thats impressive, but if you dont think a load of 205lbs on a 10 year old girls back can cause severe injuries than something is very wrong.

thecityalive
12-29-2011, 12:37 AM
Is it impressive? Yes...but I though we were through with the squat/good mornings.




Not going to shun her efforts because thats impressive, but if you dont think a load of 205lbs on a 10 year old girls back can cause severe injuries than something is very wrong.

There is no empirical evidence that fully supports that claim. While the body of a child is still developing, I don't known if there is anything adverse about the load in terms of skeletal or muscular development.

...now her form is another story.

Dank27
12-29-2011, 06:25 AM
impressive but dangerous

powerlifter62
12-29-2011, 11:34 AM
impressive but dangerous

Dangerous because she is lifting at all, or because she is lifting the amount she is lifting? If because she is leaning forward, then deadlifts must be lethal, right?

thecityalive
12-29-2011, 11:59 AM
Dangerous because she is lifting at all, or because she is lifting the amount she is lifting? If because she is leaning forward, then deadlifts must be lethal, right?

Neither. Because she squats like shes doing a good morning.

ThomasG
12-29-2011, 12:04 PM
Crazy strong! She can squat more than most male adults. I don't think lifting weights for kids is bad. But her form makes me cringe. It's only a matter of time before she get injured. The lean forward + knees caving in is bad. I bet she can squat even more with some form adjustments.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/xtgrovex/form.png

mike95763
12-29-2011, 12:21 PM
This girl is amazing for her strength her attitude. From the video she seems to enjoy lifting very much. I love how she gets fired up for her attempts. I also have no problem with her lifting heavy at her age. I do agree with pretty much everyone that she needs to be taught proper form. She is very back dominant and probably relatively weak in her quads. Continuing with this type of form will only increase any muscle imbalance that already exists. Also, as has already been mentioned she will be able to squat much more weight with proper form (probably not initially). I lean too far forward when I squat and have difficulties with form due to poor flexability and it has slowed my progress considerably. Dispite what everyone on this forum says, you (powerlifter62) clearly either do not care about injury or will not be convinced that this form could cause injury. Perhaps the idea that she could squat more weight if she had proper form would motivate someone to help her learn how to squat correctly.

powerlifter62
12-29-2011, 01:13 PM
This girl is amazing for her strength her attitude. From the video she seems to enjoy lifting very much. I love how she gets fired up for her attempts. I also have no problem with her lifting heavy at her age. I do agree with pretty much everyone that she needs to be taught proper form. She is very back dominant and probably relatively weak in her quads. Continuing with this type of form will only increase any muscle imbalance that already exists. Also, as has already been mentioned she will be able to squat much more weight with proper form (probably not initially). I lean too far forward when I squat and have difficulties with form due to poor flexability and it has slowed my progress considerably. Dispite what everyone on this forum says, you (powerlifter62) clearly either do not care about injury or will not be convinced that this form could cause injury. Perhaps the idea that she could squat more weight if she had proper form would motivate someone to help her learn how to squat correctly.

Don't care about injury? About my daughter???? Let's stay rational here. My wife and I care far more about her safety than about her breaking world records. And are far more concerned about her safety than any one or group on this board. I understand that several of you are suggesting, even insisting that she is in imminent danger of injury. That doesn't make you right. I, and often my wife and I watch every rep she does. I do try to get her more upright, but I don't see a danger in what she is doing. And this reflects my experience in lifting, and lifting with others for 30 years, as well as monitoring her closely.

As to suggestions that she lacks quad strength, I'm assuming you are being sarcastic. She squats more than her deadlift, and holds the all-time American record in the raw squat. How weak can she be?

Murderous
12-29-2011, 03:43 PM
Time for thread lock?

barryisawinnah
12-29-2011, 05:28 PM
some great squatters have employed the squat morning technique to some huge numbers


but they probably didn't start lifting heavy with that technique at 10 nor do their knees cave in.

That girl is strong though, and that is very inspiring, just work on the technique a little more

thecityalive
12-29-2011, 05:55 PM
I can understand you defending your daughters form - after all, she is your daughter. I'm not going to discredit your own personal ability and experience, but the fact that you have been watching your daughter so close could also be the problem.

Maybe, just maybe, you need to consider an outside opinion instead of just having her go on like this? It is very hard of catch your own flaws until someone points them out for you. I don't expect a 10 year old to understand the complications of physiology and kinesics, so the majority of what she knows is on you. How is she going to correct her form when the only ones dictating how she learns her form is through her parents?

powerlifter62
12-29-2011, 06:13 PM
OK. Just so we're clear, you do know that, in the 97 lb (and below) class, only one woman has ever squatted raw more than my daughter has squatted, right?

thecityalive
12-29-2011, 06:52 PM
That's irrelevant to that fact that your daughter needs to reevaluate her technique.

You posted a video of your 10 year old daughter who at this age, should be a sponge for learning things. At this rate, she'll be doing squat mornings by the time she's in her 20s.

mike95763
12-29-2011, 08:01 PM
Don't care about injury? About my daughter????
Actually what I said was you either don't care about injury or you will not be convinced that there is a possiblity that her form could cause her to be injured. Apparently it is the latter.


As to suggestions that she lacks quad strength, I'm assuming you are being sarcastic. She squats more than her deadlift, and holds the all-time American record in the raw squat. How weak can she be?
I am not being sarcastic. She is very strong for her age and her size but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have relatively weak quads in relationship to her posterior chain and her lower back. I wouldn't be surprised if she could stiff leg deadlift as much as she can deadlift with any other form.

As to her being injured, at this time in her life, with young strong joints, she will probably be ok. Add a few years and a few hundred pounds to her squat and she probably will have problems. I have only ever seen two people squat heavy with form as bad as that. One guy hurt his back and was out of lifting for several years, the other guy was me. I was squatting just over 600 lbs and allowed my knees to cave in like your daughter does. My knees couldn't take the weight and I ended up having the top of my tibia ripped off on both legs. I had to have a transplant surgery just so I could walk again.

No one here is trying to be critical of you or your daughter just to be so. This is an incredibly positive forum, which is why most of us like it. No one wants to see a fellow lifter get hurt, let alone one who is a small child with so much promise. I realise that you have experience lifting, but so do many of the people who post on this board. In any case congrats to you and your daughter for all the hard work you have both put in and best of luck in the future.

powerlifter62
12-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Thank you for the advice, and the benefit of your experience.

Dank27
12-30-2011, 10:51 AM
Dangerous because she is lifting at all, or because she is lifting the amount she is lifting? If because she is leaning forward, then deadlifts must be lethal, right?

I personally do not think someone that young should be lifting at all.

Why is evryone so touchy on this subject? Did i miss something?

April Mathis
12-30-2011, 01:14 PM
I said this on powerliftingwatch too but this is very impressive at 10 years old. Is it good or bad for a 10 year old to lift max weights, I have no idea, but I do know some very strong lifters that started young like that.

I would work on keeping knees out more for sure. This will help her get stronger and be in a better position (and be less likely to have knee problems or injuries later). Other than that I think it looks like a good squat and depth is good (everyone that has seen me squat in competition knows I lean forward alot too so I definitely do not think it is bad; some of the best raw squatters have squatted like that).

I hope she continues to lift. It would be interesting to see what kind of numbers she will put up by late teens-early 20s.

dammstrate
12-30-2011, 09:21 PM
"I think we've been through this before when she last set some marks."

"OK. Just so we're clear, you do know that, in the 97 lb (and below) class, only one woman has ever squatted raw more than my daughter has squatted, right?"

Ahhh yes, the records.
I think this pretty well sums up the situation. Pushing kids to do incorrect things
so the parents can live vicariously through their children has burned more kids than
any other reason.

If you really have "lifted for 30 years" you should know what horrendous technique this is, and pushing your daughter to continue to use it so you can shine in a record is pretty sad.

BoAnderson71
12-31-2011, 12:37 AM
Leaning forward while doing a power squat can cause you to bust a disc? You have even one example of this? Because I have been lifting for 30 years, have seen a variety of styles, including leaning pretty far forward, and have never heard of someone busting a disc.

I hurt my back (bulging disc) doing very light cleans to front squats 185 pounds on the bar and my power clean max is/was 325 (Injured in october just now recovering). I extended forward too much and hurt the disc ignored it and messed it up some more. I could not bend over in the morning and sitting in class was awful. It didn't hurt my back at all in flexion but extension was very painful. So yes leaning forward in a power squat can bust a disc no matter the weight.

powerlifter62
01-01-2012, 08:35 PM
My pointing to her records was not a matter of pride or living vicariously through her, but in response to statements about how much better she could be lifting if only her form were "better". And, it is to say, that if she is squatting that well, she is probably doing something right. By the way, yes I am proud of her, and no I am not living vicariously through her. Setting records in powerlifting are nice, can be impressive, but all in all, in the grand scheme of life, are just not that important.

Yes, I have lifted for over 30 years, and have seen a wide variety of techniques in the squat. I have a pretty good idea of what is dangerous and what is just form differences. I also watch my daughter like a hawk, as does my wife, who is a fitness enthusiast, but not a powerlifter. Also, I have a lot of good friends in the powerlifting federations where she has competed. If they thought that her style was dangerous, even if legal, they would definitely tell me. They have told me nothing of the sort.

powerlifter62
01-01-2012, 08:42 PM
I hurt my back (bulging disc) doing very light cleans to front squats 185 pounds on the bar and my power clean max is/was 325 (Injured in october just now recovering). I extended forward too much and hurt the disc ignored it and messed it up some more. I could not bend over in the morning and sitting in class was awful. It didn't hurt my back at all in flexion but extension was very painful. So yes leaning forward in a power squat can bust a disc no matter the weight.

I'm sorry you hurt your back doing cleans. But that is not an example of someone "busting a disc" doing power squats while leaning forward. Is it safe to say then that you have no such example?

BoAnderson71
01-01-2012, 11:27 PM
I'm sorry you hurt your back doing cleans. But that is not an example of someone "busting a disc" doing power squats while leaning forward. Is it safe to say then that you have no such example?


Look at the bigger picture. My back extended a tad bit thus busting my disc. The point is not which exercise i was doing but the position of my back. Reading comprehension is a tough skill to possess these days. That being said your daughter has a very impressive good morning.

powerlifter62
01-02-2012, 06:41 AM
Look at the bigger picture. My back extended a tad bit thus busting my disc. The point is not which exercise i was doing but the position of my back. Reading comprehension is a tough skill to possess these days. That being said your daughter has a very impressive good morning.

No two different lifts/exercises are the same. That is why they are different. Some share some comparable moves and stresses. A clean starts off like a deadlift, but then you move the weight a lot faster so that you can catch it on your shoulders. Then you do the front squat with it (assuming you did that rather than a split clean), which is similar to a power squat. The whipping motion to get it moving fast, followed by catching it on your shoulders can be very stressful on your discs since you are suddenly applying, releasing, then changing stresses. None of these rapid changes are present doing a squat, leaning forward or not. As to your insistence that the injury was caused by "extending forward", I'm sorry if you feel my reading comprehension is not up to snuff, but, frankly, the phrase "extending forward" lacks specificity in this context, so really does not convey enough information to be meaningful. So I relied on the rest of what you wrote.

chris mason
01-02-2012, 08:23 AM
Dangerous because she is lifting at all, or because she is lifting the amount she is lifting? If because she is leaning forward, then deadlifts must be lethal, right?

Your replies only showcase your ignorance about proper form and technique. It is possible she has tremendous structure and will avoid injury for many years with the technique you allow her to use, but it is more likely she will incur a serious injury.

I'm going to lock this thread. I really don't like to see the videos (as they make me worried for her) and I even more don't like to see your defense of the valid critiques.

chris mason
01-02-2012, 08:25 AM
I'm sorry you hurt your back doing cleans. But that is not an example of someone "busting a disc" doing power squats while leaning forward. Is it safe to say then that you have no such example?

Reference Stuart McGill's books. He references an event where a disc was fractured while the lifting was squatting during their study (in the lab!). It occurred with only a slight deviation in form. So there is your example.