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Jane
06-03-2002, 07:08 PM
I read this article...it seems to have merit, and it got me thinking. Any opinions?

http://testosterone.net/html/33plain.html

IceRgrrl
06-03-2002, 07:12 PM
Sounds like a bodybuilding type with an ax to grind wrote it...

You could probably find a runner with an ax to grind who wrote a piece on how weight lifting is hard on the body and unnecessary.

Whether or not you do cardio and how much you do depends on your personal goals, your overall health plan, and your individual needs. I'm tired of hearing the "all or nothing" debate myself.

Blood&Iron
06-03-2002, 07:20 PM
Nelson Montana is a piece of crap.

Anyways, I haven't read this myself but I think it might be of intersest:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=3AC0860A.93C5417A%40onr.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DNelson%2BMontana%2BLyle%2BMcDonald%2Bgroup:misc.fitness.weights%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sel m%3D3AC0860A.93C5417A%2540onr.com%26rnum%3D1

This one I have read, it's just plain funny:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Nelson+Montana+Lyle+McDonald+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&selm=3CBDAD1C.72F936D2%40onr.com&rnum=4

Jane
06-03-2002, 07:53 PM
Lol!

And there's my answer.....:)

BCC
06-03-2002, 10:27 PM
Best article I've read in a long time if you ask me.

Maki Riddington
06-04-2002, 11:58 AM
Lyle never explained what the problem was with the article. Instead he tried to sway somone into a debate.

sysopt
06-04-2002, 12:50 PM
It's called cardio for a reason....to improve function of the heart and lungs. It's not all too effective for fat loss.

PowerManDL
06-04-2002, 01:03 PM
His point is that you can do the same with anaerobic work.....and to a degree, I think he's correct.

Even so, endurance training has its place for everyone.

Tru
06-04-2002, 02:01 PM
So, you don't need cardio to drop your bodyfat?

Allen
06-04-2002, 02:08 PM
Very interesting.

Maki Riddington
06-04-2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Tru
So, you don't need cardio to drop your bodyfat?

*** Absolutely not! I know Charles Poliquin is huge on weight training for fat loss. It works you just need to adjust your training to meet the demands of your goals.

The_Chicken_Daddy
06-04-2002, 05:59 PM
I like fitness, and i'm starting it up again tomorrow morning.

Tru
06-04-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington


*** Absolutely not! I know Charles Poliquin is huge on weight training for fat loss. It works you just need to adjust your training to meet the demands of your goals.

How would I do that?

I just changed my routine to this:

Mon: abs
Tue: Legs/Shoulders (I clean and press the weight up for squats/front squats cuz I have no rack so i'm working shoulders.. while doing legs so I switched this)
Wed: abs
Thur: Back/Biceps/Forearms
Friday: Abs
Sat: off
Sunday: Chest/Triceps

I was gonna do cardio on Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday.. but I don't think i'm going to now.

How do you think I should adjust my training to lose fat? I think my diet is pretty solid..

Maki Riddington
06-04-2002, 08:35 PM
*** Try this,

Mon: abs
Tue: Legs/Shoulders (I clean and press the weight up for squats/front squats cuz I have no rack so i'm working shoulders.. while doing legs so I switched this)

Squats: 1x20
Shoulder Press: 1x12

Rest 60 seconds and repeat again for 3 more cycles.

Wed: abs
Thur: Back/Biceps/Forearms

Chin Ups: 1x12
Barbell Curl: 1x10
Static Holds with some dumbells for 60 seconds

Rest 60-90 seconds

Lat Pulldown: 1x10
Bicep Dumbbell Curl: 1x12
Farmer walks: 60 seconds

Rest again and repeat this cycle twice more.

Friday: Abs


Sat: off
Sunday: Chest/Triceps

*** Barbell Bench Press: 1x12
Rope Press Downs: 1x12

Rest for 60 seconds

Flat Flys: 1x10
Close Grip Bench Press: 1x12

Rest and repeat twice more.

PowerManDL
06-04-2002, 09:41 PM
Alternatively you could use lower, 5-8, non-failure reps and do 5-8 sets with that with 30-90 second rests.

Maki Riddington
06-04-2002, 09:44 PM
Or just use what Power said as the first or second cycle.

MonStar
06-04-2002, 10:54 PM
So cardio isnt effective at all for fat-loss? Not even on rest days? Thats really great. Haha I wouldnt have done cardio at all since I started bodybuilding. I have wasted hundreds of hours on treadmills / stationery bikes. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

MS

BCC
06-04-2002, 10:56 PM
Personally, I think cardio is worthless, I don't think I'll ever do any. I'm certainly not planning on it right now for contest prep.

MonStar
06-04-2002, 10:57 PM
Without cardio how do you guys drop fat, basically just keep calories down and even lower on rest days? :confused::confused:

MS

BCC
06-04-2002, 11:01 PM
It's not always just about calories. When I want to lose fat, I jack my protein and fat way up (2g of protein/per pound bw) and I moderate my carbs between days, 100 carbs being my low day, 200 being my moderate day, and 350 being my high day.

MonStar
06-04-2002, 11:05 PM
Thats some crazy sh!t man, carb cycling works for you huh?

I eat about 10-11 x my bodyweight isocalorically and right around every 3rd day Ill have a 4-5 hour low-fat refeed. Lotta fun actually. I always enjoy it. :cool::cool:

MS

dildog
06-04-2002, 11:08 PM
Okay, I have to jump in here, finally. Please ignore the fact that I'm drunk (hey, 2 hours of World Cup tv, followed immediately by 3 hours of Stanley cup tv, now on the 2 hour wait to live world cup again, what do you expect?)

What are your goals? Personally, as a mountain biker, ultimate player, and hiker I find cardio work extremely useful. Is it the only way to lose fat? No, but it is a decent way, and if you participate in sports that require endurance it has some useful side effects. If your main concern is strength, it's probably detrimental.

IOW the question's no fair unless we know your intended result.

the doc
06-04-2002, 11:51 PM
cardio is exercise for the cardiopulmonary system.

Its value for maximum health is unquestionable. You needn't run marathons nor sprint for hours to obtain its benefits.

walking, jogging, any sustained vigorous activity will convey the benefits.

whilst i have been bulking i have reduced its frequency but never eliminate it.

NateDogg
06-05-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by the doc
cardio is exercise for the cardiopulmonary system.

Its value for maximum health is unquestionable. You needn't run marathons nor sprint for hours to obtain its benefits.

walking, jogging, any sustained vigorous activity will convey the benefits.

whilst i have been bulking i have reduced its frequency but never eliminate it.

:thumbup:

gino
06-05-2002, 11:01 AM
As most of you know, I've always supported losing fat via diet rather than cardio. It's worked well for me and I have noticed cardio takes some of the fullness away from my muscles when I did it regularly in the past.

However , I'm not impressed with his rationale of what calories are burned for energy first - carbs, then protein, then fat. He explains that it is in this order because it is the "path of least resistance." I think where energy to perform cardio comes from depends on more variables than he is taking into consideration.

gino
06-05-2002, 11:31 AM
Some more reading material on fat burning...

Fat Burning During Exercise: Can Ergogenics Change the Balance?
John A. Hawley, PhD
THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 26 - NO. 9 - SEPTEMBER 98



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Brief: Endurance athletes and dieters are eager to burn more fat during exercise; athletes hope to conserve carbohydrate stores, while dieters wish to decrease fat stores. This article briefly reviews the role of fat as an energy source for physical activity, and discusses how exercise intensity and duration affect fat and carbohydrate metabolism.


Fat as an Energy Source
Compared with the body's limited carbohydrate stores, triglyceride reserves are plentiful. In a healthy, untrained individual, between 70,000 and 100,000 kcal of energy is stored as fat, mainly in the peripheral adipocytes. Even highly trained athletes who have little adipose tissue have fat stores that far exceed their athletic requirements. Although most fat is stored in adipose tissue, endurance athletes have small but physiologically important amounts of triglyceride within muscle cells; active muscle mass may contain up to 300 g of fat, most stored within the myocyte as small lipid droplets.

As a stored source of energy, fat has an advantage over carbohydrate: the energy density is higher while the relative weight is lower. Fatty acids provide more adenosine triphosphate (ATP) per molecule than glucose. However, to produce the equivalent amount of ATP, the complete oxidation of fatty acids requires more oxygen than the oxidation of carbohydrate.


Exercise Intensity and Fuel Use
The relative contributions of fat and carbohydrate to energy vary with exercise intensity. Low-intensity activities such as walking strongly stimulate lipolysis from peripheral adipocytes, while intramuscular triglycerides contribute little or nothing to total energy expenditure (1). The rate of carbohydrate use is also low: carbohydrate needs are met predominantly by circulating blood glucose, with little or no muscle glycogen breakdown (figure 1: not shown). The rate of appearance of fatty acids into the plasma peaks during low-intensity exercise (25% to 30% of VO2 max) and then declines as exercise intensity increases.

In contrast, the rate of fat oxidation is highest during moderate activity such as easy jogging (65% of VO2 max). At such an intensity, plasma free fatty acids and intramuscular triglyceride contribute equally to the overall rate of fat oxidation. During high-intensity exercise (85% of VO2 max), the rate of total fat oxidation falls, mainly because the appearance of fatty acids into the plasma is suppressed. At the same time, lipolysis of intramuscular triglycerides does not rise substantially when exercise intensity increases from 65% to 85% of VO2 max. This would not affect recreational athletes because most cannot sustain high-intensity exercise for more than 10 to 15 minutes without accumulating high (greater than 10 mM) concentrations of lactic acid in the working muscles and blood, which would cause discomfort and stop activity.

When low-intensity exercise continues more than 90 minutes, the pattern of substrate metabolism changes little relative to the first 20 to 30 minutes of exercise. The same is true of moderate-intensity exercise (65% of VO2 max): the rate of total fat or carbohydrate oxidation changes little after 2 hours of jogging or cycling at this intensity compared with the first 30 minutes. However, this level of exercise induces a progressive increase in the mobilization of fatty acids from peripheral adipocytes into the plasma (1). Therefore, the contribution of intramuscular substrates (triglyceride and glycogen) to total energy expenditure decreases when the duration of moderate-intensity exercise increases beyond 90 minutes.

the_hall
06-05-2002, 08:23 PM
I agree with Maki and Chase (and i think belial has the same views on cardio). Diet is the best way to lose fat, no need to do it for fat loss.