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View Full Version : Whats the point of being in ketosis, hasn't it been proved useless?



the_hall
06-04-2002, 05:54 PM
hasn't new scientific evidence said that ketosis actually isn't a muscle sparing state at all? I dont see the point in being in ketosis then? I honestly dont see the whole point of a ckd as opposed to any other diet other than the fact it might supress your apetite.

but it seems like many people are still reccomending a ckd as "the best diet to lose fat and maintain muscle." I can see the point in the anabolic responses created during the carb up hopefully making up for any muscle loss during the week, but wouldn't an isocaloric diet be just as effective, and actually have the potenital to build muscle since you can consume carbs postworkout?

On MFW today, i read something saying that ketosis only spares muscle at severely restricted calories, what does that mean? If I am 185lbs, and eating 1800 cals would ketosis spare muscle for me? Or are they talking about starvation? I dont see how that makes sense though, isn't that saying that you should starve yourself and eat only fat and all your muscle will be preserved? Obviousley that isn't going to work, or we would all eat nothing but fat and lose no muscle.

I also read that ketosis spares muscle in people over 15% bodyfat, true? If so, is the ckd basically a diet now that should be used to get down to 15%, then you should switch to an isocaloric diet with more frequent refeeds once below 15%?

Sorry for the long post, but im confused about the current view on cutting while preserving muscle. Im sure that there are many people out there still thinking that the can stay in ketosis and carb up every other week because "when im in ketosis i can't lose muscle, because dr. atkins book said so."

It just appears to me that there is information on this subject that most people are not aware of, and it isn't being discussed.

Wizard
06-04-2002, 06:01 PM
it is very effective when used in conjuction with insulin and test thus not the best diet for nattys..

I like more the isocaloric with random refeeds..

Blood&Iron
06-04-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by the_hall

It just appears to me that there is information on this subject that most people are not aware of, and it isn't being discussed.
It is being discussed, but as you've seen, most of the discussion is occuring/occurred on MFW and not boards like this.

So far as I recall the 'severely restricted calorie' thing is from a study that had obese woman eating about 800kcal a day, for whom being in ketosis did spare muscle vs. a non-ketogenic diet supplying the same # of calories.

Lyle seems to go back and forth on this a bit as evidenced by the following threads. Ketosis is protein-sparing. No, it isn't. I'm not sure what he thinks at this point. I hate the CKD so much I don't even care:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ketosis+muscle+sparing+Lyle+McDonald+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&selm=3C8F8D2F.86B83FF5%40onr.com&rnum=6

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ketosis+muscle+sparing+Lyle+McDonald+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&selm=3C8F8D2F.86B83FF5%40onr.com&rnum=6

WannaBeStrong
06-05-2002, 10:29 AM
I did a TKD. I gained strength while on it. When I carbed up at the end my muscular size appeared bigger.

Don't believe everything you read. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't, don't. This is a simple formula that everyone overlooks.

All diets have problems. When you restrict calories, you'll have that. Do what feels right for you.

raniali
06-05-2002, 10:29 AM
An article by Lyle based on the Bodyopus plan for using ketogenic dieting in your bulking phase.:
http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic3.htm

And my personal experience - even if you HATE CKD - I wasn't watching my cals but eating high fat/mod protein/no carbs and my strength was increasing. After 4 weeks, I actually GAINED weight but it was NOT fat because some of my measurements (like waist) decreased and others were the same.

But - my usual disclaimer - every one works differently and you need to find what works for you.

the_hall
06-05-2002, 11:36 AM
That article is from 97 though. That was when ketosis supposedly spared muscle. IMO a cid would probably be better, from what i have read.

BTW, do any of the diet experts on here know if it is possible to gain muscle (not strength) while on a cid? Im guessing no, but i just thought i would ask. If you do the carb up on say, chest day, isn't there a chance that you could pack some mass on your chest?

Blood&Iron
06-05-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
That article is from 97 though. That was when ketosis supposedly spared muscle. IMO a cid would probably be better, from what i have read.

BTW, do any of the diet experts on here know if it is possible to gain muscle (not strength) while on a cid? Im guessing no, but i just thought i would ask. If you do the carb up on say, chest day, isn't there a chance that you could pack some mass on your chest?
Yes, it's possible. I think Lyle has commented that Elzi Volk did just this.

thalapathi
06-05-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
That article is from 97 though. That was when ketosis supposedly spared muscle. IMO a cid would probably be better, from what i have read.

BTW, do any of the diet experts on here know if it is possible to gain muscle (not strength) while on a cid? Im guessing no, but i just thought i would ask. If you do the carb up on say, chest day, isn't there a chance that you could pack some mass on your chest?

The_hall,
I read on MFW that Elzi gained muscle and lost fat using a CKD. Lyle basically said:


She used a fairly standard CKD approach, 5.5 days of keto eating w/1.5
days high carbs. She trained heavy Mon/Tue and a depletion workout on
Fri prior to the carb-up.



Check out this post
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=HST+lyle+mcdonald+elzi++ckd+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&selm=3C446A77.6B3C7D0F%40onr.com&rnum=1


HTH,
Thalapathi

Tiare
06-05-2002, 11:52 PM
I think ketosis is convenient for some people (easy to find high fat low carb foods) and they can more easily restrict their caloric intake because of the fulfilling feeling of eating fats. It didn't do much for me and I was weaker when I was in ketosis.

If you are doing OK with iso-caloric, stick with it. If you stop doing OK, change it. Ketosis is one of many options.

the_hall
06-06-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by thalapathi


The_hall,
I read on MFW that Elzi gained muscle and lost fat using a CKD. Lyle basically said:




Check out this post
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=HST+lyle+mcdonald+elzi++ckd+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&selm=3C446A77.6B3C7D0F%40onr.com&rnum=1


HTH,
Thalapathi

From that article it seemed as lyle's opinion was that a CID (or any diet) could manipulate leptin enough to have any benefit? Personally I am probably 14-17% bf right now.

Now im a bit confused, what makes the cid better than the ckd if it doesn't manipulate leptin "enough" to really make that much of a difference (for keeping muscle). Is the reason a cid is better because you will be eating carbs, and you can target them around your workout and then re-feed on a workout day, therefore you will possibly re build some muscle during the week, as opposed to a ckd where you will just be eating carbs 1 day a week? When i say re-build muscle, i mean muscle that could be lost due to the lack of suffiecient calories.

Personally, for that reason (the carbs) It looks to me like the CID is still better for muscle maitinence as opposed to a CKD.

Anyone have any links from MFW where lyle or Elzi comment specifically on wheather a ckd or CID are better for muscle maitence? All i can find are posts where lyle says that some individuals get better results from a CID, but it doesn't seem that he has a definitive opinion. TKD doesn't get mentioned much.

thalapathi
06-06-2002, 02:16 PM
the_hall,
I dont quite understand your question. But imho, from what I read and what Lyle has said, it seems like it is difficult to manipulated leptin through diet. I do not have adequate background in all this and just read what is posted, so I might be wrong. If you are interested in the leptin and diet manipulation, I have a couple of threads bookmarked on MFW which I will post.
I think ParDeus also goes into it in great detail in his online magazine.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=3C8BB907.C2ED7A18%40onr.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dlyle%2Bmcdonald%2Bleptin%2B:misc.fitness.weights%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D3C8BB907.C2 ED7A18%2540onr.com%26rnum%3D1

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=3ABA6A4A.9F5D51D7%40onr.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dlyle%2Bmcdonald%2Bleptin%2B:misc.fitness.weights%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26selm%3D3ABA6A4A.9F 5D51D7%2540onr.com%26rnum%3D3

ParDeus on Leptin:

http://www.avantlabs.com/issue3/leptin_1.htm
http://www.avantlabs.com/issue4/leptin_2.htm
http://www.avantlabs.com/issue5/leptin_3a.htm

the_hall
06-06-2002, 02:45 PM
my question is basically what makes a cid better for sparing muscle than a ckd? I dont know much about leptin (i read pars article and got lost on the first sentence). But i thought leptin had something to do with the muscle preservation, because it went up on the re-feeds? I then guessed that it was the carbs (33% on lc days[possibly targeted around the workout] as opposed to 0% on low carb days w/ a ckd) that gave a cid an advantage in muscle sparing over a ckd (assuming ketosis doesn't spare muscle).

So basically it comes down to what spares more muscle. The ckd has a carb up (which basically causes anabolic responses to repair lost muscle tissue) in its favor (assuming ketosis doesn't spare muscle). Then the cid has the advantage of carbs during the week, plus a re-feed day on a training day. It looks like neither ketosis or leptin will have any muscle sparing effects on the diet.

Im guessing that the cid's advantages will spare more muscle than the ckd's, but im no expert on the subject. Lyle says the fat loss will be identical over a period of 12 weeks (3-4lbs). I guess if your real lean that really isn't identical, but it seems he definatley reccomends the cid for lean people because the ckd creates a great deal of muscle loss in lean people (hence the more frequent re-feeds).

So i guess my question is assuming i am 185-190lbs and 14-17% bf, would a cid spare more muscle for me than a ckd?

Another thing i was thinking, for the refeed, should you do the refeed the day your work your WEAKEST part, the part you want to emphasize the most? Or does it not matter, does the re-feed benefit all the bodys muscles to an equal degree regardless what group is trained on that particular day?

thalapathi
06-06-2002, 02:51 PM
oops. I dont want to mislead you with my half-baked knowledge. I hope B&I or someone else could help you with it. Check out B&I's journal, it is pretty detailed and you might find some answers there. I have posted the link below that has an article with the summary of Elzi and Lyle's thought's on refeeding.

http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm

the_hall
06-06-2002, 02:57 PM
yeah, thats actually the link that i am going to use to set up a cid.