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jc_az
06-10-2002, 04:51 PM
Well this is my first post.

I've been just reading the info. on the site and trying to do the best I can.

I started at 197 and gained upto 220 and decided it was time to do some cutting. My first time doing this.

Well, I cut down to 185 and it looks like I've lost a lot of my muscle. I feel really bad as I've lost 35 lbs. of weight and I don't even have any abs and my chest has shrunken-down to nothing.

I'm feeling real depressed as all the work I've done for the last 1.5 years is gone out the door.

I'm not sure what to do to get back what I've lost and I need some help.

Here are my stats:

6'4"
185
Small Frame/Ectomorph-Mesomorph body-type

Bulking I was eating 3900 calories a day, cutting I was down to 2200 calories a day. I did this over 4 months.

I was using a 40p/20f/40c breakdown.

Anything is appreciated.

Behemoth
06-10-2002, 04:57 PM
I think you cut way to many cals and thats why you lost so much muscle. Anyhow if one is overweight to begin with then does a cut, he cannot expect to be totally shredded on his first cut without suffering from a lot of muscle loss. What I'm saying is, if you have a lot of bodyfat to lose, you have a lot less eating to do, and with that a lot more muscle to lose. Unless you cut till your muscles are nothing, your not going to have the abs on your first cut.
Do a slow clean bulk from here and in a few months or when you feel it is right, then do another slow cut. At this point you will have more muscle and less bodyfat than you did last time you began your cut.

MRJ
06-10-2002, 05:51 PM
It looks like he gained UP from 197 to 220, then tried to CUT down to the 185 weight in an effort to shed the fat he gained while bulking.

That's my take.

As far as why his results were less than satisfactory I don't know.

It seems he did a slow cut (4 months/35 lbs/8 lbs p/month) I'm assuming his caloric intake was taken down slow, he maintained his work-out routine and his macros look OK.

Maybe someone with better knowledge can help out ?

Vido
06-10-2002, 06:10 PM
I don't like 40p/20f/40c for a cutting diet. Sounds more like a bulking diet macronutrient-wise to me. Something like a 40p/40f/20c would work better. Raising the protein and fat even more would be optimal for shedding fat, without losing muscle mass, but you might have trouble eating so little carbs (this all depends on the person though). High protein/high fat/ low carb diets are the best for doing what you want to do.
However, that being said, you may want to bulk a little bit first now that you have lost so much weight already. Make sure you don't gain too much more fat on the bulk though. When it is time to cut again forget about numbers on the scale. The mirror is the only tool you need to see if what you are doing is working.

jc_az
06-10-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Vido
I don't like 40p/20f/40c for a cutting diet. Sounds more like a bulking diet macronutrient-wise to me. Something like a 40p/40f/20c would work better. Raising the protein and fat even more would be optimal for shedding fat, without losing muscle mass, but you might have trouble eating so little carbs (this all depends on the person though). High protein/high fat/ low carb diets are the best for doing what you want to do.
However, that being said, you may want to bulk a little bit first now that you have lost so much weight already. Make sure you don't gain too much more fat on the bulk though. When it is time to cut again forget about numbers on the scale. The mirror is the only tool you need to see if what you are doing is working.

Thank you for your response.

Like I said, this was my first cutting period and I obviously did something wrong. On my first bulking routing I did gain muscles, but also more fat than I wanted.

So, I decided to do a cut and lost a lot of the muscles I gained during the bulk and now I feel really bad when I look in the mirror and I'm skinnier than before.

Are you saying that 40/20/40 is OK now that I'm trying to put some of the weight back on, but when I cut again I should do something different ? Like 40/40/20 ? I can't do that if my carbs. get that low I can't function. The lowest I've ever gotten is 125 grams a day and I was all shaky and couldn't think very well, so I went back up to 200 and felt OK.

I just kept cutting because I wanted to see my abs, but I lost everything else now and have nothing and have to do everything all over an people are calling me skinny again.

jc_az
06-10-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by MRJ
It looks like he gained UP from 197 to 220, then tried to CUT down to the 185 weight in an effort to shed the fat he gained while bulking.

That's my take.

As far as why his results were less than satisfactory I don't know.

It seems he did a slow cut (4 months/35 lbs/8 lbs p/month) I'm assuming his caloric intake was taken down slow, he maintained his work-out routine and his macros look OK.

Maybe someone with better knowledge can help out ?

You are right MRJ I was skinny at 197 and wanted to get some muscles and now I'm skinnyier than before and have no muscles.

Thank you for your reply.

jc_az
06-10-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by TryingToBeBig
I think you cut way to many cals and thats why you lost so much muscle. Anyhow if one is overweight to begin with then does a cut, he cannot expect to be totally shredded on his first cut without suffering from a lot of muscle loss. What I'm saying is, if you have a lot of bodyfat to lose, you have a lot less eating to do, and with that a lot more muscle to lose. Unless you cut till your muscles are nothing, your not going to have the abs on your first cut.
Do a slow clean bulk from here and in a few months or when you feel it is right, then do another slow cut. At this point you will have more muscle and less bodyfat than you did last time you began your cut.

How many calories should I have cut down to ? I thought to keep losing fat I had to keep cutting calories ? I made sure I got enough protein to, so thats why I don't know how I lost all the muscles.

I cut 100 calories per day each week and thats how I got down to 2200 calories. I just kept cutting calories until I saw abs and I never sawabs and then someone told me I was looking skinnier than before and I checked in the mirror and they were right and I didn't even notice until it was to late.

I really messed up bad.

I hope others will help, because I'm lost now.

Thank you for writing me back.

Behemoth
06-10-2002, 06:52 PM
Not ~positive~ but I don't think the optimal way to cut is just subract 100 calories everyday. I think for the first week your supposed to cut about 200-250 (from basal), then week 2 maybe another 150-200 and hold there for a week or 2 and see if that's shedding your BF, if not then you subract a few more. But I don't think subracting 1700 calories over 17 days is optimal.

Tiare
06-10-2002, 09:48 PM
You started at 197, bulked to 220 (+23lbs) then cut to 185 (-37lbs). Of course you look smaller than you did before you started, YOU ARE SMALLER.

6'4" at 185 sounds pretty skinny to me. I think your problem would most likely be in your bulking phase, not in your cutting phase. You did probably cut too much since you cut to a weight lower than you started your last bulk phase at.

I would suggest bulking slowly. Use the macro's that you are comfortable with but keep them as clean as possible. try gaining 2lbs/week or less and keep your body fat under control (say 10 - 12%).

the_hall
06-11-2002, 12:00 AM
It looks like you weren't eating enough when cutting, and i bet you didn't have refeeds either. try and lose about 1lb a week when cutting, so that would be about 10-20% below your maint. (15xbw). 15x220=3300 ..... .8x3300=2640, yeah, you weren't eating enough. i would do an isocaloric diet when cutting next.

jc_az
06-11-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by TryingToBeBig
Not ~positive~ but I don't think the optimal way to cut is just subract 100 calories everyday. I think for the first week your supposed to cut about 200-250 (from basal), then week 2 maybe another 150-200 and hold there for a week or 2 and see if that's shedding your BF, if not then you subract a few more. But I don't think subracting 1700 calories over 17 days is optimal.

No sir. I did not cut 100 calories p/day. I cut-out 100 calories p/day, p/week. So my entire cutting took me 17 weeks, not 17 days.

Thank you for tell me what you though might be wrong. I will print all information and try to do better next time, but I'm not sure I'm going to try lifting again. I feel to bad right now.

jc_az
06-11-2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Tiare
You started at 197, bulked to 220 (+23lbs) then cut to 185 (-37lbs). Of course you look smaller than you did before you started, YOU ARE SMALLER.

6'4" at 185 sounds pretty skinny to me. I think your problem would most likely be in your bulking phase, not in your cutting phase. You did probably cut too much since you cut to a weight lower than you started your last bulk phase at.

I would suggest bulking slowly. Use the macro's that you are comfortable with but keep them as clean as possible. try gaining 2lbs/week or less and keep your body fat under control (say 10 - 12%).

Yes that is correct 197 to 220 then down to 185 because I thought I'd have lots of muscles to show. I kept losing trying to get the muscles to show through and they never did, they just got eaten by my body becasue it was hungry I guess, so now I'm skinnier than before with smaller muscles.

I'm not sure about body fat, but some big guys at the gym said I was doing a good job for such a young kid, but they wouldn't help me because they were to busy lifting, but then they would tell me OK and pat me on the shoulder.

I wasn't fat, no sir. I did get a belly which I never had before, but it made me strong so I thought I was doing a good job because I could lift a lot of weights like some of the older guys.

Thanks to everyone for helping me. I will print everything if I decide to try lifting weights again, but my parents are mad now and they won't take me to the gym until they calm down so I might have to walk.

jc_az
06-11-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by the_hall
It looks like you weren't eating enough when cutting, and i bet you didn't have refeeds either. try and lose about 1lb a week when cutting, so that would be about 10-20% below your maint. (15xbw). 15x220=3300 ..... .8x3300=2640, yeah, you weren't eating enough. i would do an isocaloric diet when cutting next.

Thank you for your help.

I don't know what a refeed is. I eat 6 times per day if thats what you mean. What is isocaloric ? Does it save muscles ? Because that is what I needed to do. I am so dumb it seems and nobody cares that I want to get some muscles, they just tell me I'm a kid and to do other things, but I like to have muscles just like the other kids do so thats why I lift weights and spend my money on my gym and food and things.

Vido
06-12-2002, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by jc_az


Thank you for your help.

I don't know what a refeed is. I eat 6 times per day if thats what you mean. What is isocaloric ? Does it save muscles ? Because that is what I needed to do. I am so dumb it seems and nobody cares that I want to get some muscles, they just tell me I'm a kid and to do other things, but I like to have muscles just like the other kids do so thats why I lift weights and spend my money on my gym and food and things.

I believe a refeed is eating more than your maintenance number of calories for one day a week while the rest of the days you are below maintenance.
Isocaloric just means a 33p/33f/33c diet. I don't know if it "saves" muscles, but the more protein and fat you eat while dieting the better (I'm a big believer in low or no carbs for cutting).

jc_az
06-12-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Vido


I believe a refeed is eating more than your maintenance number of calories for one day a week while the rest of the days you are below maintenance.
Isocaloric just means a 33p/33f/33c diet. I don't know if it "saves" muscles, but the more protein and fat you eat while dieting the better (I'm a big believer in low or no carbs for cutting).

Thanks Vido.

I will use this the next time I do a cutt. diet and no I did not do any of the refeeds, just kept. cutting calories until I got to 2200. I thought if I ate more than that it would cause me to get fat on my muscles again, but I was wrong and it did make my body eat the muscles and now I have to start all over again.

Thanks to everyone else as well.

KRayZieDoGG
06-14-2002, 12:38 AM
are you sure you actually lost all your muscles and it's not just the fact that you are in a weak state that is making you think you lost allyour muscles?

i mean, when i am cutting i usually feel about 20% weaker then when i'm bulking, but as soon as i start eating more i will re-gain the strength within a few days

if it's just being weaker is making you think maybe you look weaker then you may notice some major changes as soon as you start eating up again

jc_az
06-14-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by KRayZieDoGG
are you sure you actually lost all your muscles and it's not just the fact that you are in a weak state that is making you think you lost allyour muscles?

i mean, when i am cutting i usually feel about 20% weaker then when i'm bulking, but as soon as i start eating more i will re-gain the strength within a few days

if it's just being weaker is making you think maybe you look weaker then you may notice some major changes as soon as you start eating up again

No people started telling me I'm looking like I lost muscles, so I checked in the mirror with bright lights and it does look like I lost.

I had my sister measure my muscles with a tape and she told me they are smaller than the last time she measured for me. So we checked the computer and they were smaller.

Thank you for giving me an idea though.

Fudomyo
06-14-2002, 05:23 PM
When you are cutting your muscles are smaller. The good news is that this is just glycogen, your muscles energy reserves. Glycogen needs about 3x its weight in water, so this is a fair amount of volume. With a few carbs, you can pack this on in literally a few hours.

If I measure while cutting I try and do this after a refeed so that I'm in a somewhat consistent state.

g-dot
06-14-2002, 06:27 PM
Actually a refeed is a day where you eat HIGH GI carbs in order to get your leptin levels back in order. I don't claim to be an expert on them at all and there are far more knowledgeable people on the subject on the diet discussion board over at elite fitness (www.elitefitness.com). Just do a search over there and you'll get your answers. Refeeds are done on low carb diets by the way and are useless if youre just keeping the same macronutrient profile but going below maintenance cals. The basic idea behind them is that on a low carb diet you starve your body/brain of carbs and your leptin levels get adjusted to this decrease because youre starving yourself of a macronutrient. Anyway as in all diets you might see good results in the first few weeks/months then they taper off. Refeeds are used to get rid of the taper by re-adjusting leptin levels allowing oyu to continue dropping fat. That's basically the extent of my knowledge on this and I'd advise you to take a look over at elite fitness.

jc_az
06-17-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by g-dot
Actually a refeed is a day where you eat HIGH GI carbs in order to get your leptin levels back in order. I don't claim to be an expert on them at all and there are far more knowledgeable people on the subject on the diet discussion board over at elite fitness (www.elitefitness.com). Just do a search over there and you'll get your answers. Refeeds are done on low carb diets by the way and are useless if youre just keeping the same macronutrient profile but going below maintenance cals. The basic idea behind them is that on a low carb diet you starve your body/brain of carbs and your leptin levels get adjusted to this decrease because youre starving yourself of a macronutrient. Anyway as in all diets you might see good results in the first few weeks/months then they taper off. Refeeds are used to get rid of the taper by re-adjusting leptin levels allowing oyu to continue dropping fat. That's basically the extent of my knowledge on this and I'd advise you to take a look over at elite fitness.

Thanks for your message.

I'm not sure what real low-carb is, but I was cutting at 100 - 150 grams of carbs. per day, but they were all complex, I think. I never ate any soda pop, juice, fruit, bread (only just a slice or 1/2 slice p/day of wheat bread) and such things. I did eat juice after working-out with my protein because everyone said you need to do this to get protein into the muscles as soon as possible after working-out, but thats it, oh yea, except for yogurt which I ate but it was non-fat.

Is this considered low-carb. ?

Anyway, I'll try to do better next time.

Thanks everyone for the information, I like this site the best.

jc_az
06-17-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Fudomyo
When you are cutting your muscles are smaller. The good news is that this is just glycogen, your muscles energy reserves. Glycogen needs about 3x its weight in water, so this is a fair amount of volume. With a few carbs, you can pack this on in literally a few hours.

If I measure while cutting I try and do this after a refeed so that I'm in a somewhat consistent state.

I didn't know this, but I never do refeeds, so I'm getting screwed either way.

Maybe I just won't measure when cutting as it is to depressing.

Thanks for the information, though.

g-dot
06-17-2002, 08:42 PM
No need to quote what you wrote but to answer your question 100-200g of carbs a day is low carb. As to whether or not you'll benefit from a refeed day? That definitely depends on the person. I'd say most likely not, but if you feel depleted and sluggish then a refeed might be called for, in your case where youre in the 100-200g of carb range you have to go with how you're feeling from it. If you were doing 0-50g of carb then definitely refeeds will be beneficial.

Tiare
06-18-2002, 12:13 PM
Since you are new to bodybuilding and probably not anywhere near your potential, I'm going to say again, don't worry about bulking/cutting. Just do a slow smart bulk. Gain 1 or 2 pounds a week while doing heavy lifting and you won't have to cut fat, your muscles will just start showing.

When you are 1 or 2 years into it then you should start really looking at cutting/bulking cycles. Before you can show off your massive muscles, you have to get massive muscles.

jc_az
06-18-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by g-dot
No need to quote what you wrote but to answer your question 100-200g of carbs a day is low carb. As to whether or not you'll benefit from a refeed day? That definitely depends on the person. I'd say most likely not, but if you feel depleted and sluggish then a refeed might be called for, in your case where youre in the 100-200g of carb range you have to go with how you're feeling from it. If you were doing 0-50g of carb then definitely refeeds will be beneficial.

OK, thanks. Now I know what low-carb is.

When I first started cutting I felt dizzy. I guess that was because I was eating so much carbs. before (700 grams) and went to low to fast. Now I feel OK with the low-carbs.

Thank you for telling me some information.

jc_az
06-18-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Tiare
Since you are new to bodybuilding and probably not anywhere near your potential, I'm going to say again, don't worry about bulking/cutting. Just do a slow smart bulk. Gain 1 or 2 pounds a week while doing heavy lifting and you won't have to cut fat, your muscles will just start showing.

When you are 1 or 2 years into it then you should start really looking at cutting/bulking cycles. Before you can show off your massive muscles, you have to get massive muscles.

Yes. This is good information. Thanks.

I just started eating a little more food last week and I gained a pound so far. I'm making sure I don't get bulging muscles on the stomache though. (ha,ha,ha)

I don't think I'm going to be doing any cutting for a while again, though. Once I gain back my weight (slow like you said) and my shirts get tight again I might want to do just a little cutting to see what happens, but I'm no way going to do like this time and lose a lot of weight. Maybe next time just 10 pounds or so, just for fun and to learn more about dieting.

Everyone has been really cool helping me with my problem & I'm going to keep trying until I get into good shape again and make everyone proud that they helped me.

Next time I score a touchdown I'm going to thank WBB ! I can hardly wait for the season to start !!!