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Kayak_boy
06-13-2002, 02:04 AM
What is ketosis??

Paul Stagg
06-13-2002, 07:48 AM
It is Nirvana. Utopia.

A land where beutiful virgins wave palm leaves to cool you off, and never stop bringing you Martinis.

Seriously.

It is also a state where your body is producing ketones to use as fuel for your brain due to the absence of glucose.

Short N Buff
06-13-2002, 09:07 AM
Okay, i asked my friend who takes nutri sci at ucsd to ask the professor sth. anyway here was the professors email (btw the professor was phd biochem , not nutri sci, but this is the biochem of ketosis). It might seem off topic, but i dont' wnana reword anything.

"Well you friend has an interesting approach to
nutrition. I agree that nutrition could be considered
a flawed science in that we really do not
treat nutrition as a science at all but rather a
'cult'...I believe that nutrition is really a cross
between biochemistry and physiology - hence the
design of this course! Now - not knowing exactly what
he means by Ketogenic Diet - let me assume that he has
a low carbohydrate and low
energy/low calorie diet which will result in an
increase in ketones. To completely metabolize fat a
small amount of Carb must be availability. This
is because the fatty acids are broken into molecules
of acetyl -CoA which can be used to produce energy via
the Kreb cycle only if it can combine
with a 4 carbon oxaloacetate molecule derived from
carbohydrate metabolism. When carbs are in short
supply, oxaloacetate is limited and
acetyl-CoA cannot be metabolized to carbon dioxide and
water. Instead, the liver converts it into Ketones
-or ketone bodies which can be used for
energy by tissues such as the heart, muscle and kidney
- and even the brain can adapt to obtain a portion of
its energy from ketones. Excess
ketones are excreted by the kidney in urine. However,
if fluid intake is too low or ketones to high, ketones
can build up in the blood causing
ketosis. Symptoms of mild ketosis - which is frequent
in weight loss-low cal diets causes headaches,
foul-smelling breath and in some cases
reduction in appetite. High ketone levels-left
untreated can increase the acidity of the blood and
result in coma and even death.
................with
your friends background in biochemistry - this should
make sense."

Short N Buff
06-13-2002, 09:08 AM
btw that prev letter is kinda inaccurate. i think the professor is wrong about keto diet being a low calorie diet.

Kayak_boy
06-14-2002, 12:12 AM
So what do ketones do??

Paul Stagg
06-14-2002, 09:50 AM
Nothing.

They are an energy source for the brain.

Kayak_boy
06-16-2002, 05:22 PM
So what's the big deal with them??

the_hall
06-16-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Kayak_boy
So what's the big deal with them??

there is no big deal with ketosis, it was once believed to be a state where muscle is spared while losing fat.

jls944
06-16-2002, 10:26 PM
You can use ketosis in your advantage if you know what to do. Ketosis is the state in which your body uses fats as a fuel. When your body is deficient in carbs, it has to get fuel from a different source. Your body converts fats into what is called "keytones." These keytones are alternative sources of fuel for the brain, skeletal muscle, heart and other properties. So this means that when someone is in a state of ketosis, they are burning fats as a fuel instead of carbs, meaning fat loss. THere is much more to this, but I think this answers your question.

Kayak_boy
06-16-2002, 11:16 PM
Yeah, that's great, cheers.

So if you are not consuming carbs do you not go into a state of muscle burning and lose mass??

jls944
06-17-2002, 09:09 AM
It depends. If you have enough fat to supply your fuel needs, then no you will not lose muscle mass. If you dont have enough fat then your body will start to convert protein to glucose (via gluconeogenesis)

Kayak_boy
06-17-2002, 06:13 PM
So does that mean it's ok to get fat when you're bulking, And then cut out carbs and then you cut really well??

Vido
06-18-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Kayak_boy
So does that mean it's ok to get fat when you're bulking, And then cut out carbs and then you cut really well??

No one said anything close to that. You should bulk as cleanly as possible, so there is less cutting to do in the end. Dramatic increases on the scale might seem impressive, but you'll know right away it isn't all muscle. It is ok to gain fat while bulking as a result of the excess calories needed to gain mass, just don't let yourself run wild with the eating. An excess of 500 cals or so over maintenance is plenty for bulking.

Tiare
06-18-2002, 12:06 PM
Some things that should be noted:

Ketones are produced by the liver from fat when there is not a supply of carbohydrates for glucose. This does not mean you are losing fat, just that your body is using fat (either dietary OR from body fat) to replace (to an extent) glucose in the blood stream.

Ketones can not be used anaerobically for energy.

Ketones can not be used by the red blood cells for energy. There has to be glucose in the body to fuel your blood cells.

You will almost always lose muscle weight when in ketosis because your body will extract certain molecules (basically glucose and water) from your muscles. Not saying you will lose muscle, just muscle weight.

No diet is perfect for everybody. While ketogenic diets may work for some people, others may not like them.

the_hall
06-18-2002, 09:42 PM
if you like being fat then by all means get as fat as you possibly can while bulking, your the one who is going to have to waste your time getting rid of it. while you are worrying about losing that fat you aren't going to be gaining muscle, you might lose it. if you want to know what the big deal about ketosis is, there is no big deal.

lyle mcdonald the expert on keto diets has already stated that ketosis has no benefits, an isocaloric diet is better. i dont know where atkins got his stuff about ketosis supressing hunger, ketosis made me hungrier than ever. now that im eating moderate carbs on a cid im never hungry. so much for ketosis, as far as i have read and experienced it is completley worthless.

Jane
06-18-2002, 10:00 PM
Actually I have experienced less hunger. But whatever works. :)

Maki Riddington
06-18-2002, 10:22 PM
Me two.

Kayak_boy
06-18-2002, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by the_hall
if you like being fat then by all means get as fat as you possibly can while bulking, your the one who is going to have to waste your time getting rid of it. while you are worrying about losing that fat you aren't going to be gaining muscle, you might lose it. if you want to know what the big deal about ketosis is, there is no big deal.

lyle mcdonald the expert on keto diets has already stated that ketosis has no benefits, an isocaloric diet is better. i dont know where atkins got his stuff about ketosis supressing hunger, ketosis made me hungrier than ever. now that im eating moderate carbs on a cid im never hungry. so much for ketosis, as far as i have read and experienced it is completley worthless.

All I was doing was asking the question. I had never heard of ketosis and am trying to expand my knowledge.

Celestial
06-19-2002, 08:12 AM
I would like to try this but I have such a bad sweet tooth craving :( What are the foods you can eat ont his diet? Any examples? This way I can make up a menu, thanx.

Tiare
06-19-2002, 11:05 AM
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=34
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=45

This is pretty accurate for what ketosis is. As far as foods go, any oil/fat, meat, bacon, mayonaise, cheeses (somewhat). You can't eat things like fruit, veggies, breads, cereals, sugars, etc.

WannaBeStrong
06-19-2002, 11:12 AM
I was much less hungry. It was a nice change of pace. Do you have the article where Lyle stated it was useless?

Celestial
06-19-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Tiare
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=34
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=45

This is pretty accurate for what ketosis is. As far as foods go, any oil/fat, meat, bacon, mayonaise, cheeses (somewhat). You can't eat things like fruit, veggies, breads, cereals, sugars, etc. How can you loose fat while feeding your body full of it?

WannaBeStrong
06-19-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Celestial
How can you loose fat while feeding your body full of it?

Short explanation : You are using fat for energy/brain function instead of carbs.

Also, just because you are eating fat doesn't mean you'll become fat.

Type ketosis in google.com and read up.

KoolMan
06-19-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Tiare
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=34
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=45

This is pretty accurate for what ketosis is. As far as foods go, any oil/fat, meat, bacon, mayonaise, cheeses (somewhat). You can't eat things like fruit, veggies, breads, cereals, sugars, etc.


You are almost 100% correct... you still need to eat vegies but onloy certain ones... take lettuce for instance loaded with good stuff! and like 1g of carbs for like 2 cups but you can use salad dressing.. and I'm not talking that no fat stuff ranch is GREAT on a diet like this 2carbs for 2tbs, vinegar and oil is allright also! (French and some other are out thoug).

Back to the point you need to eat some greens that's where all your carbs for the day will come from your allowed about 30g per day so lettuce etc.. is allright!

Celestial
06-20-2002, 09:57 AM
So who here has doen this and what where their results?

WannaBeStrong
06-20-2002, 10:49 AM
I've done a ketogenic diet. I lost 20lbs in 6 weeks, regained 8lbs in water. That looks like 12lbs or 2lbs a day. My lifts went up [I was actually getting the right amount of protein] to boot.

I was aiming for 2lbs per week (1000 calorie deficit). It was a very easy diet to maintain, but I wouldn't do it any longer than 6 weeks at a time. I didn't carb up on the weekend either, so by the end I became a little lethargic.

KoolMan
06-20-2002, 10:58 AM
I'm doing a ketogenic diet right now. I have lost 6lbs in 1 week not bad... somepeople say it's just water weight but I drink about 2 gallons of water per day.

I am on about a 1200-1500 calorie per day deficit (I weight about 283 so I should be getting arround 3500 calories but take in arround 2000-2300 per day)

This is plenty of food... with no carbs I was eating and eating and eating and still was not even close to my 2000 calories, or 175-200g protien I had to get a protien drink to help fill in and eat some hard boiled eggs as snaks. You are ALWAYS full on this "diet" the lack of carbs helps control your diet but you need to be carefull of the ammount of carbs you eat, no more then like 30g per day.

The first 3 days SUCK bad I was faling asleep like every hour (well I wanted to but I was working) after that it's all good.. just be sure to eat enouhg greens like salid and such there are some good links on line about carbs and greens. Also, I had to get a potasium supliment because I was getting spliting head achs from not enough potasium but now I feel great..

I started the diet 1 week and 1 day ago and started lifing 2 weeks ago.

WannaBeStrong
06-20-2002, 11:29 AM
The most you could lose in 8 days with a (average)1300 calorie deficit would be about 3 lbs. I gaurantee the rest is water. Don't worry though, you should be ok and the water regain won't make you look fatter :)

KoolMan
06-20-2002, 11:34 AM
How do you figure that out? I saw a formula somewhere but I can't remember where... ?

I would like to be able to figure out how much is fat water etc..

WannaBeStrong
06-20-2002, 12:06 PM
A pound of fat = 3500 calories.

8 days * 1500 calories = 12000 calories
12000 calories / 35000 calories/lb = 3.42lbs

Celestial
06-20-2002, 12:35 PM
how can u regain so much in water after ur done?

WannaBeStrong
06-20-2002, 01:02 PM
Reintroducing carbohydrates. Your muscles fill back up (glycogen stores are replenished).

Celestial
06-20-2002, 01:56 PM
Ahh I see, do you introduce them slowly?