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Big Dan
05-10-2012, 08:11 AM
Hi all,

After posting my food intake in another sub-forum, I was advised to try and get some more protein in my diet, substituting some of the carbs i currently eat.

Sometimes I even just miss breakfast because i'm in a rush, so I was hoping that protein shakes might be right for me.

All my stats/info including my food log is in this thread - http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?153039-Weight-loss-and-body-building&p=2557954#post2557954

So, for breakfast I try and eat either 2 or 3 toast, or 1 or 2 bagels, or a bowl of branflakes.

I never really have time for cereal, so i usually have toast or bagels. But often I'll be running out the door and not even have time for that, so I end up grabbing a small yoghurt and taking it to work to eat at my desk.

Anyway, to the point, I feel that I need more protein in my diet and I was hoping that protein shakes might be my solution - to have one a day at breakfast time, with toast or a bagel but if i'm in a rush, just on its own.


Would this be a good plan? and if so, what kind of powder should I buy?

Thanks,
Big Dan

JacobH
05-10-2012, 04:56 PM
Yes. Nitrean is the best protein you can buy. But really even wal-mart protein is fine. Also, don't stress out about when you are getting it. If you can have a shake at breakfast, a shake post workout and a shake at bedtime. Great. If you don't have time at breakfast, that's fine. Try and start tracking your protein intake daily, as long as you meet your goal at the end of the day it's all the same. Also- for your goal, you have a huge amount of mass already, not really lean mass, but if I were in your position I would be shooting for about 300 grams per day.

edit- Oh yes and I should tell you that getting it from whole foods is always better. But shakes are just so convenient.

Big Dan
05-11-2012, 02:45 AM
edit- Oh yes and I should tell you that getting it from whole foods is always better. But shakes are just so convenient.

Yeah. I was told that, and have tried to be eating chicken breast pretty much every day (most convenient, tuna is disgusting to me unless its COVERED in mayo which is not good) - but as you say, shakes are much more convenient.

Cheers mate!

krazylarry
05-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Toast, bagels and bran flakes are all shit. Don't eat them. Have protein shake or eggs.

K-R-M
05-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Toast, bagels and bran flakes are all shit. Don't eat them. Have protein shake or eggs.

Nothing wrong with any of these foods.

Big Dan
05-12-2012, 07:17 AM
Nothing wrong with any of these foods.

Agreed. I don't know where krazy larry seems to be getting his information. Bran flakes and bagels are some of the best foods you can have in the morning. Its just that most of us on this site need to pump the protein in.

krazylarry
05-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Well a bagel has a GI of 72 almost the exactly the same as a doughnut. Where as the doughnut has 270 cals and the bagel has 320 cals. So the bagel is made of the same stuff as the doughnut and has more cals. Now would any one on this planet think that a doughnut is "good healthy" food? No. So why would you think that a bagel is healthy, when in fact when you look at the numbers it actually worse for you....

Its amazing what you would learn just from looking up nutrition facts.

http://www.dunkindonuts.com/content/dunkindonuts/en/menu/bagels.html?DRP_FLAVOR=Cinnamon+Raisin

krazylarry
05-12-2012, 12:25 PM
Watch, you may learn something.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/196879/fat-head

Behemoth
05-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Well a bagel has a GI of 72 almost the exactly the same as a doughnut. Where as the doughnut has 270 cals and the bagel has 320 cals. So the bagel is made of the same stuff as the doughnut and has more cals. Now would any one on this planet think that a doughnut is "good healthy" food? No. So why would you think that a bagel is healthy, when in fact when you look at the numbers it actually worse for you....

Its amazing what you would learn just from looking up nutrition facts.

http://www.dunkindonuts.com/content/dunkindonuts/en/menu/bagels.html?DRP_FLAVOR=Cinnamon+Raisin
Primarily because they're deep fried and typically topped with sugary glazes or fillings. To my knowledge bagels aren't...

If it fits his macros, there's not a damn thing wrong with him eating a bagel unless he's just trying to feel hardcore and be a bro who eats nothing but sweet potatoes and brown rice.

K-R-M
05-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Well a bagel has a GI of 72 almost the exactly the same as a doughnut. Where as the doughnut has 270 cals and the bagel has 320 cals. So the bagel is made of the same stuff as the doughnut and has more cals. Now would any one on this planet think that a doughnut is "good healthy" food? No. So why would you think that a bagel is healthy, when in fact when you look at the numbers it actually worse for you....

Its amazing what you would learn just from looking up nutrition facts.

http://www.dunkindonuts.com/content/dunkindonuts/en/menu/bagels.html?DRP_FLAVOR=Cinnamon+Raisin

I wouldn't put too much stock on the GI value (are you diabetic?) or what constitutes as "healthy". Anything that doesn't reduce your life expectancy or increases your risk of disease is healthy enough for anybody. There's nothing fundamentally unhealthy about 1 bagel, or even 2 as long as he's following his macros and eating his fats/veggies/protein. About fat-head, his no-bologna facts suck, I like a minimum of interpretation skills from my documentary directors.

RichMcGuire
05-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Since the GI doesn't always match the II, I don't think id worry about it.. the biggest deal will be total calories and macro nutrient profiles at the end of the day.

Big Dan
05-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Dude, you've posted the stats of a DUNKIN' DONUT bagel, not your standard bagel.


These are the bagels I eat;
http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories-in-food/bakery-products/Cinnamon-Raisin-New-York-Bagel.htm

krazylarry
05-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Primarily because they're deep fried and typically topped with sugary glazes or fillings. To my knowledge bagels aren't...

If it fits his macros, there's not a damn thing wrong with him eating a bagel unless he's just trying to feel hardcore and be a bro who eats nothing but sweet potatoes and brown rice.
Topped with sugar and still less cals, so a doughnut would fit his macros even better than a bagel.
The human body needs EFA's and protein, not carbs. You can have them, but they are not needed.
You and I have had this talk before, I prescribe to the Selby Stanes view of low carb is the best way to drop fat.
Big dan has been eating what he thinks is healthy, as per FDA guide lines, low fat high starch and its clearly not working. So why not try something else, that has been shown to work for tons and tons of people? Low carb.

K-R-M
05-12-2012, 01:25 PM
Topped with sugar and still less cals, so a doughnut would fit his macros even better than a bagel.
The human body needs EFA's and protein, not carbs. You can have them, but they are not needed.
You and I have had this talk before, I prescribe to the Selby Stanes view of low carb is the best way to drop fat.
Big dan has been eating what he thinks is healthy, as per FDA guide lines, low fat high starch and its clearly not working. So why not try something else, that has been shown to work for tons and tons of people? Low carb.

I think diets with carb have worked just as well, if not better because the restriction is easier to follow. I'd personally say that Shelby's views on low carb are the best way to drop fat, for you but I wouldn't make any generalizations any further than that. Eating carbs also doesn't disqualify from either getting EFAs or protein, I'll even add that our body is highly efficient at digesting carbs and even has a wealth of mechanisms for it, suggesting that carbs are indeed a usefull part of our diet.

Behemoth
05-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Topped with sugar and still less cals, so a doughnut would fit his macros even better than a bagel.
The human body needs EFA's and protein, not carbs. You can have them, but they are not needed.
You and I have had this talk before, I prescribe to the Selby Stanes view of low carb is the best way to drop fat.
Big dan has been eating what he thinks is healthy, as per FDA guide lines, low fat high starch and its clearly not working. So why not try something else, that has been shown to work for tons and tons of people? Low carb.

At Big Dans level low carb or high carb is pretty much irrelevant. I agree carbs can play a very key role in getting ultra lean. But if Dan can adhere to his caloric intake and gets in the other adequate nutrition he needs then bagels (or even doughnuts) are perfectly fine for his losing weight on.

krazylarry
05-12-2012, 02:26 PM
At Big Dans level low carb or high carb is pretty much irrelevant. I agree carbs can play a very key role in getting ultra lean. But if Dan can adhere to his caloric intake and gets in the other adequate nutrition he needs then bagels (or even doughnuts) are perfectly fine for his losing weight on.

Yes "adhere to his caloric intake and gets in the other adequate nutrition" is the most important thing. But from my reading low carb is good for over weight people, where as low carb does not really cause a big difference in normal weight training people, because it helps correct the hormonal problems many heavy people have. I.E. high blood sugar and insulin production.

Big Dan
05-12-2012, 03:10 PM
You are forgetting Larry, that you posted statistics to a DUNKIN' DONUTS bagel, which are clearly cooked differently, in a fairly bad way. These are the bagels I eat;
http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories-in-food/bakery-products/Cinnamon-Raisin-New-York-Bagel.htm

Also, bagels are FAR more filling than donuts, hence I can get by on one bagel for a full morning, rather than probably wanting/needing at least 2 or 3 donuts.

Behemoth
05-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Yes "adhere to his caloric intake and gets in the other adequate nutrition" is the most important thing. But from my reading low carb is good for over weight people, where as low carb does not really cause a big difference in normal weight training people, because it helps correct the hormonal problems many heavy people have. I.E. high blood sugar and insulin production.

Chicken breast, brown rice, tuna, fish oil, shakes, steak, and oatmeal is "better" than chicken breast, bagel, tuna, fish oil, shakes, doughnut yes. Is it tangible? No. If he wants to eat bagels that perfectly fine.

More important are the psychological benefits and drawbacks of limiting yourself to only the most hardcore foods or not. Most people do much better when they understand there can be a lot of flexibility in dieting. Those who don't and try and do things perfectly by the book usually end of fizzling out with it and ultimately never sustaining it.

krazylarry
05-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Chicken breast, brown rice, tuna, fish oil, shakes, steak, and oatmeal is "better" than chicken breast, bagel, tuna, fish oil, shakes, doughnut yes. Is it tangible? No. If he wants to eat bagels that perfectly fine.

More important are the psychological benefits and drawbacks of limiting yourself to only the most hardcore foods or not. Most people do much better when they understand there can be a lot of flexibility in dieting. Those who don't and try and do things perfectly by the book usually end of fizzling out with it and ultimately never sustaining it.
I never said limit himself to hardcore food. I said replace a bagel with eggs or a shake, which by all accounts is a much better option. Of if he is going to cheat, I consider a bagel cheat food, cheat with a doughnut. It fits the same macros, same cals, IMO tastes a hell of a lot better, and more importantly when some eats a doughnut they know they are eating crap, unlike when eating a bagel when you think you are eating good, but its the same crap macros as a doughnut. So it has much great psychosocial reward.

If he really needs bagels, than he needs to adjust the rest of his diet around the bagel, because a bagel is not good eating. I had to adjust my diet to have pizza at least once a week, but I don't kid myself thinking "oh pizza is low in fat, so its healthy for."

RichMcGuire
05-12-2012, 09:32 PM
Seriously, an argument about a bagel? I think ill write a diet book about the new super secret "low bagel diet" guaranteed to strip off lbs of fat in weeks!

K-R-M
05-12-2012, 10:54 PM
I consider a bagel cheat food


Bagels aren't a cheat food. The very notion of a cheat food is debatable.

chevelle2291
05-13-2012, 12:03 AM
I never said limit himself to hardcore food. I said replace a bagel with eggs or a shake, which by all accounts is a much better option. Of if he is going to cheat, I consider a bagel cheat food, cheat with a doughnut. It fits the same macros, same cals, IMO tastes a hell of a lot better, and more importantly when some eats a doughnut they know they are eating crap, unlike when eating a bagel when you think you are eating good, but its the same crap macros as a doughnut. So it has much great psychosocial reward.

If he really needs bagels, than he needs to adjust the rest of his diet around the bagel, because a bagel is not good eating. I had to adjust my diet to have pizza at least once a week, but I don't kid myself thinking "oh pizza is low in fat, so its healthy for."

Krazy, how "clean" is your diet? I'd imagine it must be very strict if you consider bagels a cheat food, no?

After years upon years of stagnation while adhering to a clean diet, I really think that "clean" eating is incredibly overrated. This is strictly from a muscle gain/fat loss perspective.

This time last year I cut on ample portions of mcdonalds, ice cream, shock tarts, etc. Healthy? No. Successful? Absolutely. From a pure composition standpoint, the source of the p/f/c just doesn't matter.

Jonathan E
05-13-2012, 12:37 AM
This is now a bagel/spiderman thread.

All joking aside dan, the protein shake idea is good. Nitrean is great. Also regarding your whole morning 'rush': I find that having some greek yogurt with some type of nuts mixed in it does wonders.

tommygunz90
05-13-2012, 06:33 AM
This is now a bagel/spiderman thread.

All joking aside dan, the protein shake idea is good. Nitrean is great. Also regarding your whole morning 'rush': I find that having some greek yogurt with some type of nuts mixed in it does wonders.

+1 on the greek yogurt! A guy from work had me try one of his about two years ago right before I got into lifting. Never really got into the macros until I started shopping for lifting and then I checked. Chobani 0% fat has 140 cals 14 grams of protein. Ill usually eat one with some oats or granola in it or 2 as is!

krazylarry
05-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Krazy, how "clean" is your diet? I'd imagine it must be very strict if you consider bagels a cheat food, no?

After years upon years of stagnation while adhering to a clean diet, I really think that "clean" eating is incredibly overrated. This is strictly from a muscle gain/fat loss perspective.

This time last year I cut on ample portions of mcdonalds, ice cream, shock tarts, etc. Healthy? No. Successful? Absolutely. From a pure composition standpoint, the source of the p/f/c just doesn't matter.

Pretty clean, minus a protein bar everyday because I have neither time nor the stomach to eat real food going from my lifting gym to my MMA gym. And of course Firday when I eat pizza, lots and lots of pizza. Last summer when I looked my best it was low carb, but I was not training MMA nearly at intensely. So I could get away with low carb. Sparring on low carbs may be the worse experience of my training life, its the only time I ever quit. I was getting the brake beat off me by a guy who every other time we have sparred I was able to work what ever I wanted on him.

Referring to a bagel as a cheat food, a bagel is white flour, white flour is crap. I have never read anything from someone who's opinion I valued who said white flour was good.

Cutting is very person dependent. I know quite few guys who eat a crap diet, don't work out very hard and have full 6 packs. It's genetic. Now IMO people who are endomorphs need a lower carb diet to get lean because they don't have the proper insulin response and that's why they hold fat so well.

RichMcGuire
05-13-2012, 02:08 PM
:bang:


Referring to a bagel as a cheat food, a bagel is white flour, white flour is crap. I have never read anything from someone who's opinion I valued who said white flour was good.

Cutting is very person dependent. I know quite few guys who eat a crap diet, don't work out very hard and have full 6 packs. It's genetic. Now IMO people who are endomorphs need a lower carb diet to get lean because they don't have the proper insulin response and that's why they hold fat so well.

Why exactly do you think its crap? It has nutrients other foods don't. And how would someone not lose fat eating white food if they were in a caloriie deficit? Bagels don't defy thermodynamics. It sounds like you're just quoting internet gurus you've read. Saying "clean foods" is so grossly over simplified that it does not belong in nutrition.

chevelle2291
05-13-2012, 02:33 PM
in b4 Alex.

krazylarry
05-13-2012, 03:30 PM
:bang:

Why exactly do you think its crap? It has nutrients other foods don't. And how would someone not lose fat eating white food if they were in a caloriie deficit? Bagels don't defy thermodynamics. It sounds like you're just quoting internet gurus you've read. Saying "clean foods" is so grossly over simplified that it does not belong in nutrition.

I've said before and I'll say it again. The human body needs protein and EFA. You could live off just those to things and be perfectly fine. Eskimos do, as well as people following the Palumbo diet, or velocity diet. The last 2 usually add in an antioxidant like Superfood, but I think that's just a marketing ploy.

As for white flour having nutrients it doesn't naturally. That's why if you look at the ingredients it says "vitamin enriched flour" because it doesn't even have vitamins in so they have to add it to it. So what you really have is 50 g of starch, little to no protein or EFA or vitamins. basically a handful of sugar, it just doesn't taste a good.

Of course you can loss weight while eating shit and being cal deficient. Remember the twinkie diet, he ate nothing but twinkies for a month at 1800 cals a day, and lost 20 pounds. Granted he had to have a protein shake and fish oil caps because the flour didn't provide him with the 2 things he needs to live. He lost weight, sure. But what kind of weight, did he drop fat and maintain muscle? Probably not. There is a huge difference between weight loss and fat loss.

Clean food is food you need, protein and EFA, the rest isn't. Unless you do a high cardio output sport, running, MMA, strongman, than you do need carbs because ketos are not efficient enough to provide energy when the demand is so high.

RichMcGuire
05-13-2012, 03:50 PM
Clean food is a false term that has no worth whenn it comes to macronutrition. You can eat this so called unclean white food and still lose ffat and maintain muscle provided calories were right and you got enough protein. To think otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the human body.

Food discrimination never follows logic..just an over simplification of what they don't really understand. By your white flour logic, protein whey should be avoided.

krazylarry
05-13-2012, 05:36 PM
Clean food is a false term that has no worth whenn it comes to macronutrition. You can eat this so called unclean white food and still lose ffat and maintain muscle provided calories were right and you got enough protein. To think otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the human body.

Food discrimination never follows logic..just an over simplification of what they don't really understand. By your white flour logic, protein whey should be avoided.

Did you even read what I wrote? The fact you equate whey and flour together suggests that you didn't.
Whey is great because it's high in protein, nutrient dense food.
Flour sucks because its nutrient devoid starch, which empty calories. Worse part is flour doesn't even taste good. You would be better off defending the doughnut, as least there you could say hey it tastes like awesome.

RichMcGuire
05-13-2012, 06:03 PM
Did you even read what I wrote? The fact you equate whey and flour together suggests that you didn't.
Whey is great because it's high in protein, nutrient dense food.
Flour sucks because its nutrient devoid starch, which empty calories. Worse part is flour doesn't even taste good. You would be better off defending the doughnut, as least there you could say hey it tastes like awesome.


As for white flour having nutrients it doesn't naturally. That's why if you look at the ingredients it says "vitamin enriched flour" because it doesn't even have vitamins in so they have to add it to it.

Whey protein isnt natural either. So your reason for not liking white flour is void. As far as your waistline is concerned, it simply doesnt matter at the end of the day when you figure energy equilibrium and macro nutrition. To argue against that is kind of silly. Food discrimination belongs to obsessive people that obsess over illogical things.

K-R-M
05-13-2012, 08:09 PM
Did you even read what I wrote? The fact you equate whey and flour together suggests that you didn't.
Whey is great because it's high in protein, nutrient dense food.
Flour sucks because its nutrient devoid starch, which empty calories. Worse part is flour doesn't even taste good. You would be better off defending the doughnut, as least there you could say hey it tastes like awesome.

I wouldn't say protein powder is a nutrient dense food, it's a processed and stripped down food. Flour taste awesome btw: hamburgers, tortillas, pancakes, bagels, meat pie, cake, you can make so many awesome things with it. Donuts are made of flour, another awesome food. Protein powder is one of the most boring foods. The vitamins added in flour probably refers to folate, due to its effects on preventing anencephalis (since almost everyone eats flour). I don't understands why people fight against some foods, there's no actual evidence for it and you're just making yourself miserable not eating what you like.

krazylarry
05-13-2012, 08:49 PM
All those things are made of flour but they don't taste like flour, you like the other stuff in them. Hell even plain doughnuts taste like crap. Eat a big bowl of plain white flour and tell me how great it tastes.

RichMcGuire
05-13-2012, 08:59 PM
I'm bowing out of this one. Its just getting too silly and off track.

Op- you can eat a bagel for breakfast and still maintain muscle/lose body fat. Everythiing else isn't worth arguing imho

Behemoth
05-14-2012, 07:17 AM
Larry, is your last name Fanelli?:p

Alex.V
05-14-2012, 07:33 AM
in b4 Alex.

I'm just sitting back on this one sipping my coffee, dipping my bagel in some protein powder.

The highlight so far was Larry saying that donuts taste like awesome. Which is so true.

Cards
05-14-2012, 08:20 AM
Larry, is your last name Fanelli?:p

i lol'd at this

RichMcGuire
05-14-2012, 11:24 AM
You would be better off defending the doughnut, as least there you could say hey it tastes like awesome.



Hell even plain doughnuts taste like crap. Eat a big bowl of plain white flour and tell me how great it tastes.

I lol'd at this. Now I don't know what to believe!!!!11!

krazylarry
05-14-2012, 11:49 AM
Larry, is your last name Fanelli?:p
Nope.
I googled Larry Fanelli, and nothing came up, so I don't get joke.

krazylarry
05-14-2012, 11:53 AM
I lol'd at this. Now I don't know what to believe!!!!11!

Believe in nothing, beliefs are hard to change, people kill for them, people get killed for them. Have an idea, ideas can change, you won't get killed for an idea. Unless its a billion dollar idea that I can steal. Hey sorry man, but have you seen the price of whey and doughnuts these days!? haha

But yeah old fashion doughnut aka plain, don't like pass. Every other kind of doughnut I've had, awesome. Ever have a red velvet doughnut? I'd eat ten pounds of bagels to have one right now...

tom183
05-14-2012, 05:45 PM
Nope.
I googled Larry Fanelli, and nothing came up, so I don't get joke.

It's in reference to an old forum member, Dan Fanelli.

yayeti
06-04-2012, 11:01 PM
what is the argument that low carbs is better than low fat for getting ultra lean?