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Bako Lifter
06-12-2012, 12:30 AM
I have a lower back problem. Due to this, whether my body can or cannot, I do not know, I will not deadlift at 85% or higher. That's just a guess, since I have no idea how much I can deadlift, I do not know what '85%' even is. The main thing I'm trying to say is I won't push the envelope on weight.

My question is, with lots and lots of speed practice, could somebody with a 405 max theoretically pull 315 just as fast as someone with a 500 max?

Could the 'weaker' person develope the endurance to rep out 225 more times?

Keep in mind the 405 versus 500. I'm not talking 405 versus 700.


And I know, the best way to answer both questions would be to raise my one rep max. That's difficult for me to do. Not only difficult, but possibly unsafe.

bald bull
06-12-2012, 03:41 AM
I think the 500 puller would be quicker off the floor w 3 wheelz, bc it is a less %age of their 1RM.

NickAus
06-12-2012, 04:37 AM
You need to learn how to build your deadlift with-out maxing on the deadlift? Many people do that, you can too.

I need to pull heavy to get better at it but many hardly max and still hit PR's.

You need more than a 405 deadlift if your aim is being really explosive which is im guessing your goal.

Speed pulls work, use 40-60% plus bands for mutiple sets of 1-3 reps (if no bands go 50-70%)

Bako Lifter
06-12-2012, 09:15 AM
So could I just do weekly speed pulls? And add like ten pounds per week until my speed decreases?

Alex.V
06-12-2012, 09:45 AM
My question is, with lots and lots of speed practice, could somebody with a 405 max theoretically pull 315 just as fast as someone with a 500 max?

Could the 'weaker' person develope the endurance to rep out 225 more times?



For the second question- yes, absolutely. For the first question- yes, possibly.

For the first- Two athletes of equal maximum strength can technically have very different power curves for a given movement. If you develop excellent midrange strength in the deadlift movement and utilize that to accelerate the bar, the time to complete a given movement could be roughly equivalent to that of a "stronger" lifter who has not developed that velocity. There's also development of speed-strength versus maximum force. An athlete who works with lighter weight but develops the coordination needed to maximize velocity with that lighter weight may never develop the overall maximum force off the floor needed to pull the same weight as the "stronger" athlete.

Who's stronger in absolute strength, a shot putter or a baseball pitcher? Now, who can throw a light ball faster? The pitcher. Who can press more weight with their throwing arm? The shot putter.

Anytime you perform sub-maximal efforts explosively, you're leaving some absolute force production on the table (known as the explosive strength deficit- ESD). Think about yanking up 135- are you truly exerting all your force against it? Absolutely not. Now, when you pull your max? Absolutely. Speed work decreases this ESD- i.e. makes you better at exerting a higher percentage of your force against a given submaximal load. At low loads, ESD matters more than maximum force. At higher loads, maximum force is more important.

Now, this is not to say you won't get stronger- you absolutely will. But speed-strength does not increase maximum force production as directly as true maximum effort work will. A 405 lifter with tremendous explosive strength may out perform a 500 pound lifter in a submax pull.

For the second question, again, absolutely. Anaerobic endurance can improve tremendously without necessarily increasing maximum strength. No need to get into what specific adaptations there are (e.g. enzyme concentration, capillary density, LT shift, etc.), but yes, it's very possible to do this.

chris mason
06-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Force velocity curve and training specificity anyone? :thumbup:

ehubbard
06-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Why not work on fixing what ails you first? Do you get any work done on your glutes, piriformis, lower back? Chiro, ART? Do you use a foam roller and / or lacrosse ball? Are your glutes not firing? Are you super tight?

Bako Lifter
06-12-2012, 02:42 PM
Why not work on fixing what ails you first? Do you get any work done on your glutes, piriformis, lower back? Chiro, ART? Do you use a foam roller and / or lacrosse ball? Are your glutes not firing? Are you super tight?

I saw a physical therapist. I regularly stretch and foam roll.

NickAus
06-12-2012, 09:17 PM
Mix them up, just pull as explosively as humanly possible with good form.

Gut full of air, grip and rip.

bald bull
06-12-2012, 11:39 PM
slds are good to mix in too.

ehubbard
06-13-2012, 06:57 AM
I saw a physical therapist. I regularly stretch and foam roll.

PT's are a dime a dozen. You need to find someone who know what the fuck they are doing OR get an MRI and see if there are structural issues.

Having said that I used to have similar issues and what helped me the most was doing glute activation drills before training in addition to the foam rolling and dynamic stretching.

ScottYard
06-13-2012, 07:38 AM
Do you pull every week?

If I pull more then 2x per month my pull goes to shit and my low back does as well. Maybe it s a frequency issue?

RhodeHouse
06-13-2012, 11:59 AM
I saw a physical therapist. I regularly stretch and foam roll.

Just because you do that doesn't mean it works.

I wouldn't worry about your speed as much as:

1. Learning how to pull correctly. If you can pull to a certain point with no problems that tells me your form breaks down when the weight sgets heavy.

2. Build some rep strength to address your 1rm and to build the strength in your back.

3. Don't think so damn much. If you don't know how to progress, follow 5/3/1. Simple, effective, everything is all laid out for you and you deal with submaximal weights.

Bako Lifter
06-13-2012, 12:20 PM
PT's are a dime a dozen. You need to find someone who know what the fuck they are doing OR get an MRI and see if there are structural issues.

Having said that I used to have similar issues and what helped me the most was doing glute activation drills before training in addition to the foam rolling and dynamic stretching.
True, all they did was stretch my hams then had me do core work. For $20 a session. I quit going after three sessions and continued myself.

Do you pull every week?

If I pull more then 2x per month my pull goes to shit and my low back does as well. Maybe it s a frequency issue?
I never pull, when I do its just a couple reps in between power cleans.

Just because you do that doesn't mean it works.

I wouldn't worry about your speed as much as:

1. Learning how to pull correctly. If you can pull to a certain point with no problems that tells me your form breaks down when the weight sgets heavy.

2. Build some rep strength to address your 1rm and to build the strength in your back.

3. Don't think so damn much. If you don't know how to progress, follow 5/3/1. Simple, effective, everything is all laid out for you and you deal with submaximal weights.

That's true. Rolling and stretching makes me feel better but I don't think its actually fixing the problem.
I know how to progress. I know how to pull correctly also, but my form does break down with higher weights, due to the huge weakness in my right side lower back, rather than form issues. Do you think chiropractic work would help?

I'm introducing dynamic effort deadlifts into my program next week.

RhodeHouse
06-16-2012, 08:44 AM
True, all they did was stretch my hams then had me do core work. For $20 a session. I quit going after three sessions and continued myself.

I never pull, when I do its just a couple reps in between power cleans.


That's true. Rolling and stretching makes me feel better but I don't think its actually fixing the problem.
I know how to progress. I know how to pull correctly also, but my form does break down with higher weights, due to the huge weakness in my right side lower back, rather than form issues. Do you think chiropractic work would help?

I'm introducing dynamic effort deadlifts into my program next week.

Get stronger. If your form breaks down, you don't know how to pull correctly. Not to mention the fact that you just said you don't pull much, just in between power cleans. How can you get good/strong at something you don't do?

Spend 2-3 years working and then get back to us on progress.

Travis Bell
06-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Force velocity curve and training specificity anyone? :thumbup:

^ This is the key to your questions.

SELK
06-16-2012, 12:47 PM
Its a deadlift, get your back strong as shit and make sure you can hold onto the thing.

Jonathan E
06-21-2012, 01:01 AM
Many have said some great things here. From a medical standpoint, if you feel their is something wrong..their probably is. (Assuming your form is not the issue). I've had my fair share of PT's, Docs, etc. Try a Chiropractic Physician if you can find one that has some reputable results/experience dealing with athletes. Some can do amazing things.